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"Remember the Good Old Days?" - Jacqueline


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Behold Jacqueline: I found her blog - deeprootsathome.com - through RaisingHomemakers.com (which is now run by the enigma that is June Fuentes).

Hopefully Jackie – can I call you Jackie? – will see the additional traffic to her blog as a blessing in disguise.

Near the middle of Jackie's post, “Longing for the Good Old Days?†she admits the impossibility of turning back time and suggests additional fundie sheltering as a corrective to the increasingly 'pagan' nature of public life.

Before I sink my teeth into that, however, I will first address Jackie's white-washed description of the past – a description she apparently believes to be accurate.

So, let us take a look at the world that never was:

How often have I said that I long for the “good ol’ days†when life was simpler. Oh, for the days when instead of teachers, it was parents and grandparents…

It just so happens that I know quite a bit about the “good old days,†and they were never this good – and that's assuming Jackie's version of 'good' is worth pursuing in the first place.

I think most of her 'Things Were Better When...' meditations deserve their own snark.

…instead of friends- siblings and cousins….instead of neighbors- aunts and uncles..

So, Jackie's version of the good life is one where, instead of making friends from outside your own 'family culture,' you limit contact with anyone not related to you.

Jackie not only believes this way is best, but she also assumes this level of isolation was ever practised by normal folks at any point in history.

(The reason so many fundie daughters seem to be unwed into their late 20s, if they're lucky, is because their parents bought into the same lie Jackie believes.)

…instead of a random neighborhood- a community of brethren.

...instead of the current world population of 7 billion, a world population of 1.5 billion.

I know Jackie and her peeps don't “believe in†overpopulation - apparently, math is not their strong-suit – but the loss of small communities to the more efficient apartment and condo complexes is one direct result of urban population over-growth. (And of course the rural population is also growing, and working the massive amounts of land needed to keep even a single family alive.)

If Jackie has a problem with this situation, I suggest she take it up with the entire Quiverfull movement.

….instead of kindergarten and school- homeschooling.

Some homeschooling parents are good at what they do. Others suck.

The children who don't benefit from good homeschooling – and it's true both of the past, with its tutors for the wealthy, and of our own era – are at a disadvantage when it comes to getting a decent job.

These fundies act as if community schooling were the worst thing that could happen to a child; that parents would just naturally teach their own children and with a rigorous curriculum if the government didn't step in.

That, of course, is bullshit.

…instead of the nursing home- family.

Multi-generational homes are pretty rare in these parts. Grandparents live alone. Parents live alone. Grown children live alone. Because of this, it's very hard for a single caregiver – because she's doing it alone - to provide good in-home care to a spouse with complex needs.

If the whole family were in on it, however, and even shared the cost of additional medical help, it would be much easier.

And yet when families to try to maintain a multi generational home, they face a lot or criticism – including from fundies, depending on the situation.

They will – and I know this one from experience – be hard-pressed to find a landlord willing to rent: The more people there are in a family, no matter who these people are, the less likely it is to find an accommodating property owner.

So yeah, multi-generational is a good way to go if everyone can get along - but there are certain practical barriers to it.

And guess who puts up some of those barriers? Political religious conservatives with their anti-family “I got mine; fuuuuck the poor' policies.

Who opposes bills that would make it illegal for homeowners to discriminate? Yup – t'was the assholes.

Who opposes making sure even poor seniors can get in-home care? C'mon, Jackie – guess!

…instead of the office- the garden and barn.

So basically, 'Instead of urban life, rural.'

I'm not sure why the rural life is often seen as morally superior by the fundies we read, but they definitely seem to believe it.

(Here's another of Jackie's musings: “…instead of going out for dinner- homegrown, home-cooked meals.â€)

…instead of running around town all day- staying at home.

Because, surely, that's how people of the past lived: The women never went out as the merchant ships to find food; they never ran around at all. They stayed home, because, 'Duh!'

…instead of going out with the girls- rich conversation over snapping beans.

Ah yes; in fundie culture, 'Night Out with the Girls,' is merely code for, 'Traipsing around in mini-skirts, filling the atmosphere of the nearest saloon with silly woman-talk.' (Because, as Steve Maxwell is quick to tell people, the need for “me time†is just a myth – like overpopulation and gravity and the round Earth.)

Women at home, on the other hand, can be supervised during their conversations even while they keep their hands from idleness.

While I'm sure this set-up would be true of past Christian and Muslim sects, even as it is in some current ones, I also expect most women in most cultures in most eras hung around and had fun together at least sometimes – whether or not there were beans that needed snapping at home.

….instead of a Facebook status- a private letter or card.

I don't support the fundie culture, but the above would bother me if I did want to see fundiedom thrive.

There's a certain level of learned helplessness among fundies – some of them – such that they will complain, for example, about the death of the personalized letter even while doing nothing to revive the art. It's not like the postal network no longer exists. If a fundie wants to write letters, the stamps are cheap, so what is stopping her. Lots of people like to write letters – including those with Facebook accounts.

And that brings me to my second point: Why does it always, always, always have to be either/or with these people.

Newsflash: One can post on the internet and still write letters.

….instead of shopping at the mall- sewing and knitting (or going to the thrift store).

This one is so worthy of snark. Jackie's basically saying, 'Hey, it may be much more expensive and time-consuming to sew or knit your own clothes, but you should still do that – but if you can't, you lazy bitch, then always shop second-hand because new clothes are an indulgence and indulgence is always wrong.'

….instead of blogging- journaling.

….instead of sharing thoughts on the internet- sharing thoughts with the family.

Oh look! Seems Jackie (selectively) does get the concept that not all things are either/or – and yet here she is, using that simplistic language to brow-beat her readers.

Jackie continues:

We must walk wisely and seek guidance to live amidst our increasingly pagan culture. Questions every family needs to ask are:

~Do we need to go to the beaches and public pools? What influence does increasing immodesty have on out sons and daughters?

~Do we need to go to the mall with its materialistic and hedonistic displays? Are there other ways to get lovely clothes and save lots of money, too?

~Do we need to have all the latest and hottest electronics. Are we mindful of how we spend our time? Are we accountable on them?

~Do we run to the newest box office release or cultivate a love for the solitude of reading in the sanctuary of our own home?

~Do we model to our children how to care for us someday by caring for their grandparents now?

~Do we joyfully and thankfully prepare our own food (maybe even grow some of it) in order to take care of the temple that God has given us?

Such fearful, myopic self-indulgence, that list. Most of the items are minor in nature, and yet look how she worries about them.

She should be worried, instead, about the utter rot that consumes the leaders of her faith.

These are my thoughts: We don’t live in the ‘good ‘ol days’ but we can learn from them.

Learn from them! Yes! Both the good and the bad, this time: For example, remember Jim Crow laws? (You should; they were on the books and actively enforced for nearly 100 fucking years.)

Or how about some of the more recent ones:

Remember this?

Blitzer: But congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die?

Crowd: [Yeah! Yeah! Laughs.]

Or how about this?

Limbaugh says Abu Ghraib torture pics are just like a frat hazing

So those are some of the people who speak for "mainstream" religious conservatives. Your own speakers are even worse, Jackie. But instead of worrying about that, you just focus on absolute minutia. Ladies in two-piece bathing suits? Why should anyone give a damn about that?

Pray, fundies: Pray that, unlike some of your ancestors in the “Good Old Days,†you will be wise enough to recognize injustice and strong enough to speak out against it.

Most of this other stuff – make your clothes or buy used and save the difference – is just so much busy-work; so much flotsam compared to some of the outrages a lot of modern fundies either ignore or overtly support.

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Most of the stuff on her list, she could do it now. Hanging out with relatives instead of friends and neighbors? Go for it. You probably won't want to, because chosen friends are generally better suited than people who share a few random bits of DNA. Ditto for the written correspondence, the pea shelling, the knitting. Lots of people, even teh eebil pagans, still do this things and there is no reason she cannot. She could live off of a farm, homeschool, whatever. Make your choices. Just don't take away mine.

My mother cared for both of her parents when they became too aged to care for themselves. She moved into their home, with a husband and family in tow, and cared for them in their home until their last breath. While working full-time as a psychologist and finishing up some post-grad education. My other set of grandparents lives with my older sister sometimes and moves between relatives every few months by their choice. I will care for my parents when they cannot; it is how things are done in my family culture. You don't have to be a fundie to do that. But there are other considerations as well; if I could not care for an elderly relative adequately, if you could not physically move them for example, then a nursing home is the best choice. However, they think in terms of platitudes, not realities.

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Here's my version of the "good old days."

Instead of a time when I have earned a master's degree--a time when none of my great-grandfathers went beyond grade school and none of my great-grandmothers could read or write.

Instead of a time when I have freedom of religion--a time and place where my great-grandmother, at 9-years-old, had to climb on the roof of her house to escape from soldiers who would have killed her for being Jewish during a pogrom.

Instead of a time when I can work in safe conditions and have a union negotiate for my benefit--a time when my great-grandfathers worked in sweatshops and girls died in the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire.

Instead of a time when I can use birth control to plan my family and know that abortion is a safe and legal option--a time when my great-grandmother sought an illegal abortion because she was told by doctors that carrying another pregnancy to term would kill her. (My great-grandfather literally dragged her back home before she could have it done.)

Do you think she'd like my version?

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the good old education she is talking about is learning the family business. Yes you could run it but unless it required reading (rich merchant) you could not read that includes the bible. You want multi generational (it is a good concept) that's a good thing but it was only really practical in small or isolated places for most people.

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Quote:

…instead of the nursing home- family.

Multi-generational homes are pretty rare in these parts. Grandparents live alone. Parents live alone. Grown children live alone. Because of this, it's very hard for a single caregiver – because she's doing it alone - to provide good in-home care to a spouse with complex needs.

If the whole family were in on it, however, and even shared the cost of additional medical help, it would be much easier.

And yet when families to try to maintain a multi generational home, they face a lot or criticism – including from fundies, depending on the situation.

Oooh, it makes me *angry* when people think that caring for aging relatives at home is the *only* loving thing to do, the only acceptable option. Sure, it can be a good option, but sometimes it is beyond the capabilities of one person (or even two people, or three people). Some folks as they age just need more care than a devoted daughter or daugther in law (or son or son in law) can give them.

I watched my mother run herself ragged trying to care for my grandparents...she worried about them every single second that she wasn't able to be with them, would freak out if they didn't answer the phone, etc. And that was when everything was relatively status quo! When my grandfather got the flu, he needed round-the-clock care and it took the combined efforts of my mom, my dad, and my aunt to keep him comfortable and clean and hydrated. My dad had to change his diapers and help him in the restroom (while he was sick he lost bladder/bowl control), my aunt had to sanitize the house (which she did at 3am), and someone had to wake up every 30 mins to give him fluids. It was not sustainable. Mom did get in home help for them for a while, which helped, but having reliable, background checked round-the-clock in-home care was beyond the means of anyone to pay for long term. Granted, my grandfather recovered from the flu, but he and Grandma both have chronic health conditions that made living alone impossible.

So, Mom found them the best assisted living home she could. We are lucky that there is money to pay for it as good care doesn't come cheap. They are clean there, and well-fed, and safe, and mom never has to worry that my Grandfather will fall or something or that Grandma will wander off (she has Alzheimer's). Yes, they would probably prefer to be in their home, but where they live now is the best possible option for them.

Also, back then, people didn't live as long and we didn't have the same kind of long-term medical treatments. They would get sick and die in their beds of cancer or whatever at 60. That's a very different world from the type of care that many people in their 80s and 90s need.

Not saying that caring for relatives in the home is a bad thing - I just hate to see people like my mom villified for doing the best she could in a difficult situation. Honestly, it would take my mom quitting her job, my aunt quitting her job, and my dad and I doing a *lot* of filling in and respite care to take care of my grandparents in home...and on top of that, I doubt that they would get better care from us than they do from the folks in their care home. Plus, what if I wanted to have a baby or move to a different part of the country or something? My life (and my parents' lives, and my aunt's life) can't come to a screetching halt for the next 10-20 years.

I know I sound heartless, and that's not my intent... it's just that sometimes there are things that are beyond our abilities. I know that people struggle with this, and that the "sandwich generation" is a reality...but crapping on people who make difficult but necessary decisions isn't the way to ease the situation.

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Has she ever thought about the fact that some elderly actually prefer having their own home? My grandparents have their own home and with help from their kids and grandkids they are able to manage really well. In fact, they love the freedom of living independently and having their children and grandchildren drop in, instead of having to move away from their home and live with any of their kids. Obviously this doesn't work for everyone, but sometimes even the elderly don't like the idea of multigenerational living either.

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Oh look! Seems Jackie (selectively) does get the concept that not all things are either/or – and yet here she is, using that simplistic language to brow-beat her readers.

I suggest the young Lady walks the walk instead of talking the talk and gets off the internet now.

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it irritates me that people think the 50's and such were such 'good ole days' when really it was a time of complete opression for a LOT of individuals and if you didn't comform to the social norms you were treated a lepre!

I cannot stand that so many people want to see a return to these horrid times! :x

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Remember the Good Old Days?

Instead of prenatal vitamins and fortified milk . . . a tooth for every child.

Instead of a bank account in your own name . . . a cup on the stove where you put the butter and egg money, if you had butter and eggs to sell, or money from scrubbing other people's clothes, if they had any money to pay you with, or your housekeeping allowance, if your husband felt like giving you one, and he could take it back anytime he wanted.

No antibiotics. Strep was the thing that you got that you prayed wouldn't turn into scarlet fever, or rheumatic fever, or both, turning you into an invalid for life. Pneumonia was called "old man's friend."

Because, you know, at least dying by drowning in your own lungs was an end to a lonely, crippled, poverty-stricken old age. Did I mention that old people fell victim to dementia so often that they called it senility, which translates as "oldness?" Nobody knew how to prevent strokes, or treat them either.

It was pretty much a given that one of your children would die.

If you lived in a bucolic village, you had to do exactly what everyone else did. If you didn't think like everyone else, talk like them, worship like them, dress like them, and in every way behave like one of them, you became an outsider. Outsiders were the first to go when times got hard; they were the ones that got hanged as witches or otherwise turned into scapegoats. If you lost your family or friends somehow and couldn't manage to make yourself likeable, you became an outsider.

Your family was your support? Fine. No family left? No support. See "old man's friend."

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How about no antibiotics, no aspirin or painkillers. How about all the children who died before the age of 5 or all the women who died in childbirth. How about getting a cavity and having your tooth pulled with no novacane. How about trying to grow food in the dust bowl of the Midwest. How about having to kill an animal for meat. How about no refrigeration. How about burning to death because your long skirt came to close to the fire. How about shooting an intruder to protect your home and children. Your man will be doing hard physical work in the fields.

Study your history, stupid women.

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instead of shopping at the mall- sewing and knitting (or going to the thrift store).

Holy hell. Does she think that life before modern conviences was easy? My grandmother's mother worked in the field with her husband. When she was older, she also worked in the mill to bring in additional money. Her life was tough and she wasn't poor, just not rich. Washing clothing was a hot, all day job. Not to mention, that clothing had to be made and mended. There is a reason why an old poem says that a woman's work is never done. It wasn't.

The writer wouldn't be able to sew many cute outfits. Clothing would be functional except church clothes. Most people a long time ago had only a couple of change of clothing.

Unless she was wealthy-and she probably wouldn't be- her life would be constant work

I 'd like to know if she would enjoy cleaning the chamber pot or going outside in the middle of a winter downpour to use the out house?

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Ahhhh, Jacqueline. She doesn't have the mean streak of some of the fundie bloggers, but she does fancy herself a mentor to the young women bloggers. I haven't read her blog much, but I see her pop up elsewhere online. Some of her comments on SAHD blogs are preachy awesomeness.

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The 'Good Old Days' sounds pretty lame, nothing new happens and it almost sounds like Rapunzel's life before she met the Prince.

The Good Old days in my life were camping and swimming in the summertime, eating a lot of meat during holidays, going to Greek Parades, watching movies (Hallmark, TCM and Disney), watching cartoons on TV, reading books (not just the bible), telling jokes, brothers and sisters keeping secrets from Parents, eating chips and drinking soda (a lot).

God I miss the 90s.

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... When there were no Good ole' days for people who weren't white, the correct branch of Christian or people who aren't/weren't Christian, and who were from a different ethnicity/race in America.

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Most of us don't remember the good old days because our past lives all died before they were 5.

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Behold Jacqueline: I found her blog - deeprootsathome.com - through RaisingHomemakers.com (which is now run by the enigma that is June Fuentes).

The whole thing is a major eyeroll, but this just :angry-jumpinganger: . How thick can you get? Yes, instead of school, children like my great-grandmother in the early 1900s helped at home and didn't learn a thing. She only got to go when the weather was nice and on rare occasions. She was hardly literate. They lived in poverty, in rural Virginia. One of 13-only 10 surviving to adulthood. Homeschooling my arse. Her parents didn't homeschool her or her siblings. They were busy and were illiterate themselves. Most parents did a little teaching if they were able, but most children still went to school in a one-room style building when they were able. The wealthy hired tutors-their parents didn't try to teach such things. Not to mention that I recall my great-grandmother talking about how they would spend a few days sometimes eating little more than cornbread. The joys of life before food stamps-starvation. And no, she didn't look fondly on her childhood. Her best memories were when she went to school.

And didn't most people used to know their neighbours and spend time with them? Why have front porches then? And most children played with other children who weren't their siblings. These people are hiding from the world essentially and making excuses for it. Didn't she learn anything from her high school history classes? Maybe if Jackie paid attention to those teachers she slams she might not be so dense.

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...When, unless I came from an unusual and probably very well-off family I'd have been, at best, kept at home for my whole life, due to my physical disability. Or perhaps I'd have landed in a freak show. Or, most likely and probably worst, in an institution.

The good old days can bite me.

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GeoBQn - ditto. Good Ole Days nostalgia is apparently limited to white Christian rural Americans. Us ebil Jews have somewhat different memories.

For example:

Instead of mere friends - my bubbe had "comrades"

Instead of a random neighborhood - my grandparents grew up in tenements

Instead of kindergarten and school - my great-grandparents got to flee pogroms, and then give up the idea of schooling because they needed to work to prevent the family from starving

Instead of graduating from high school - my grandparents got to drop out and work through the Depression even though they would have aced univerisity

Instead of the nursing home - a combination of no antibiotics, no decent dentures, no IVs, no feeding tubes and no respirators would have caused the elderly to die sooner. When I was growing up, children and grandchildren of Holocaust survivors also didn't need to deal with elderly relatives, because they had all been killed by the Nazis.

Instead of family movie night - well, my bubbe enjoyed reading radical books and plotting the revolution....

Instead of the office - the sweatshop.

Instead of running around town all day - one great-grandmother got to work long shifts at a factory to support her daughter after being abandoned by her husband, one got to work non-stop on the farm and one wouldn't have been able to go out too much because she didn't speak any English and had no money.

Instead of going out for dinner - my grandmother lived with relatives who fed her "mamaligge" (cornmeal) every single meal.

Instead of going out with the girls - my bubbe was organizing the proletariat.

Instead of life spent in the car attending children's classes - my friend's mother saw her entire family being murdered when she was only 5, and then lived with the Partisans in the forest

Instead of sharing thoughts on the internet - learning to be discreet in order to avoid police/government informants

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I do not know what snapping a bean entails, and am tempted to make a dreadful "flicking a bean" joke ;) but srsly. Going out with the girls doesn't involve conversation?

Like 2x's bubbe but in very different circumstances I tend to have comrades rather than friends (some are both) and even they like to get dressed up (the female ones) go out for a drink and have fun, not sit around doing stuff with beans. It doesn't mean squeezing into a miniskirt and flinging yourself at the first bloke you see, this would be problematic for the lesbians amongst us anyway. Female friends together talk about life, the universe and everything, share experiences and help each other out. In our case you can go from a discussion on Kronstadt (FUCKING KRONSTADT AARGH) to children to where did you get those shoes? to "I'm not sure if I should see the doctor, because..." to whether the Committee for a Workers' International are taking too much control of the local anticuts group. To hear Jackie put it you would think girls' night out involves staring blankly at each other until a man comes along, at which point you all collectively jump on him.

I'm not sure if we're doing it wrong ;) or she's a mentalist, but I suspect the second.

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Very little pisses me off more than self-righteous statements that loving families will always care for their frail elderly parents at home and only heartless ingrates dump their parents in the nursing home, never to be visited again. My father had Alzheimer's for the last 20 years of his life. For 16 of those years, his progression was relatively slow and he and my mother were able to live in their own home. The last four years, everything went to hell. Stage 1: my mother tried hiring 24-hour in-home caregivers to help her when she was no longer physically able to care for Dad's needs. Stage 2: Mom and Dad moved across the country to live with my sister and her husband. Stage 3: my sister hired 24-hour in-home caregivers because she could also not manage Dad's needs, and my brother-in-law has some pretty serious physical disabilities of his own. This lasted six weeks. Stage 4: Dad had a seizure, was admitted to the hospital, and from there was discharged into a nursing home where his quality of life improved dramatically. Family members visited every day and there was never any length of time when he was not loved and cared for. The end of his life was as meaningful as it possibly could have been in large part due to the care he received at the nursing home.

When people live longer, you end up with the frail trying to take care of the frailer. Sometimes a good nursing home is the best way to make sure a loved one's needs are cared for. In my father's case, his Alzheimer's was complicated by lifelong physical disabilities, a heart valve condition, and a seizure disorder. Continuing to care for him at home would most likely have shortened his life by a year or more, and made it less pleasant besides.

Regarding the homeschooling, I recently tutored a 19-year-old homeschool "graduate" who is taking a remedial beginning algebra class at the local community college. This is not a stupid young lady but she did not understand the following terms: exponents, integers, distributive property, identity, or how to perform operations on fractions with different denominators, all concepts I learned between the ages of 10 and 12 at the evil public school my parents sent me to. I consider the homeschooling my acquaintance received to be shameful educational neglect.

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it irritates me that people think the 50's and such were such 'good ole days' when really it was a time of complete opression for a LOT of individuals and if you didn't comform to the social norms you were treated a lepre!

I cannot stand that so many people want to see a return to these horrid times! :x

Couldn't agree more. I hate the 50s. Sure the clothes are cute but jeez..doesn't make up for the way women were treated. If you thought your life sucked (which it probably did) :roll: your husband would take you to a nice man doctor who would perscibe something for your 'nerves' or 'neuroses'.

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...When, unless I came from an unusual and probably very well-off family I'd have been, at best, kept at home for my whole life, due to my physical disability. Or perhaps I'd have landed in a freak show. Or, most likely and probably worst, in an institution.

The good old days can bite me.

And if if you were in a well off family sometimes. Whatever happened to Rosemary Kennedy? I know she didn't have a physical disability but they hid her away. Maybe I'm not going far enough back in time. Anyway I agree. The good old days were awful.

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Errr... I have seen and read Little House on the Prairie.

I just didn't make the mistake of thinking it was real and applied to everyone as historical fact.

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I have to confess, my first thought on reading the rather masterful deconstruction was to note the 'mothers and fathers, siblings and cousins, aunts and uncles' phrases. Yes, community and social cohesion is important, but this makes it sound like being a member of an inbred, incestuous mountain clan, and I dont think thats something to aspire to!

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I believe that there is a country just like that where she can move to if she desires the 'good old days'.

It's a country where

Oh, for the days when instead of teachers, it was parents and grandparents…
because there aren't actually that many schools.

Where

instead of friends- siblings and cousins….instead of neighbors- aunts and uncles..
because people live in tribal villages and your extended family and distant relatives are your tribe.

Where

instead of a random neighborhood- a community of brethren.
because everyone believes as you do and nobody dare say otherwise

Where

….instead of kindergarten and school- homeschooling.
again, because of the lack of schools. Oh and what schools there are, are generally for boys not girls.

Where

…instead of the nursing home- family.
because extended family tends to live in one compound.

Where

instead of the office- the garden and barn.
because the country has so little infrastructure and government that most people are subsistence farmers - should be right up her alley.

Where

…instead of running around town all day- staying at home.
because it isn't safe - those darn landmines, and for women leaving home is seen as wrong.

Where

…instead of going out with the girls- rich conversation over snapping beans.
because in the country I am thinking of a girls night out would never be allowed and women would have to make do with snapping beans for entertainment.

Where

….instead of a Facebook status- a private letter or card.
hmmm, might have a problem here. A letter requires the ability to read and write. Though I am sure she could find a way around that in the country I am thinking of.

Anyway, I think that if she is unhappy with her first world country she should up and leave. As I said I can think of a country which fulfils all her above requirements.

Now who would like the chip in to buy her a one way ticket to Afghanistan?

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