There must be fundy kids who just don't believe

[Daenerys]

I was raised in a religious (Catholic / Church of England) though not fundy environment, where it was just expected that we would believe in God even if we would sometimes question the finer points of religion. I, however, just never believed it at all. I equated Jesus to imaginary friends and wondered why adults still needed one, particularly after I had grown out of all mine. As I grew up and saw the random cruelty and unfairness of the world, I wondered why a caring God would do such things. Although it took until my late teens to admit to being an atheist, I had pretty much been along those lines for my entire life.

No one really taught me to question when I was first doing so, and I was a fairly sheltered child (no memories of 9/11 even though I was ten - I'm not American though) yet I pretty much came to these conclusions on my own. Which leads me to think some fundy children, even daughters, must be going down the same path.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I was raised in a religious (Catholic / Church of England) though not fundy environment, where it was just expected that we would believe in God even if we would sometimes question the finer points of religion. I, however, just never believed it at all. I equated Jesus to imaginary friends and wondered why adults still needed one, particularly after I had grown out of all mine. As I grew up and saw the random cruelty and unfairness of the world, I wondered why a caring God would do such things. Although it took until my late teens to admit to being an atheist, I had pretty much been along those lines for my entire life.

No one really taught me to question when I was first doing so, and I was a fairly sheltered child (no memories of 9/11 even though I was ten - I'm not American though) yet I pretty much came to these conclusions on my own. Which leads me to think some fundy children, even daughters, must be going down the same path.

There have GOT to be. I was raised in a very religious but liberal (my parents are all about the FAITH but not so much about the CATHOLIC CHURCH) Catholic household, and I never "got" the Jesus concept. I basically figured "believing in Christianity is something you have to grow into, its like right now, the sweater is too large, but soon it will be JUST RIGHT". Yeah, never happened. I'm now Jewish.

[AnnieC 305]

You know, I have a friend who was raised Fundamentalist-lite and is still an active member of her church, even though she does not hold to many of the social attitudes and has even begun to question the existence of God. When I've asked why she stays with a church who's beliefs she no longs holds and who is so intrusive into her personal life she freely admits she's staying because if she left or voiced any disagreement publicly she would lose 99% of her social network and probably be shunned by her family. So she can only talk about the hard issues she's dealing with concerning faith and belief and morality with her Atheist friends.

Now this is a friend with a college degree who has not only lived on her own for ten years and who has a well-paying job but who even lived in a foreign country on her own for a year. Given how she feels about losing her social network I can't blame any child from a hard core Fundamentalist family for keeping their mouth shut and living the lie. Given their SODRT education and lack of any kind of hope for a supportive job or anything on the outside, what choice do they have?

[CC3]

You sound very similar in personality to my son. We raised our kids in an evangelical Christian home. I homeschooled my children in the early grades and then they went public school. I could tell my son didn't believe what we taught him. He wasn't disrespectful to me, but constantly questioned everything. He is studying to become a science teacher. I think it would be the perfect job for him. We have decided to agree to disagree about his beliefs verses mine. He goes to church on Christmas Eve because the rest of the family does and we would miss him if he didn't. Plus he likes our friends from church. I am sure there are plenty of fundie children who don't believe but don't have the freedom to buck the crowd. I feel for these kids. Faith in God is an individual decision and shouldn't be forced on your family members.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I think there's got to be some fundy kids who don't believe. But they probably realize that it's safer not to share that with anyone they know

[SimplyMe]

I don't know- the true fundies are brought up in an environment so different from what most of us could ever imagine. When bible time and prayer are a huge part of your daily existence from the day you're born, I would imagine most of them do believe, there isn't an opening for them not to. They have no freedom of thought, none.

I was brought up Catholic and it was assumed that I'd believe, but my environment wasn't so restrictive- I went to school, had many non-Christian friends, read mainstream books, etc... There was room for me to form my own thoughts and opinions and have gone through phases of non-belief and believing. These kids simply don't have that freedom of thought and because of that, I would imagine that most do believe.

[MLizabeth]

I've always wondered what a fundamentalist family with do with a kid who was kind and well-behaved, but just didn't believe. If God through his grace grants salvation, it isn't really the fault of the individual if they haven't had that experience?

[Sister Mary Savage]

No parent can make their child believe anything that they don't want to. Fundie parents can try until their eyes roll back into their heads but it will not work. Eventually, a child is just going to do what they will.

I think that this would be very difficult to accept for parents that want to control their children at every part of their lives.

[Sister Mary Savage]

I would love to see what would happen if one of the oh so special Duggar blessings got up the nerve and told Jimbob to shove his false prophet loving beliefs up his ass. Hey, I love to dream! Then maybe Anna will realize that she did not win the jackpot and that she is basically doomed to be an extension of Smuggar unless she get's herself out of the lifestyle.

[Daenerys]

Frankly I've had a nice life so far and I don't believe, I can't imagine how much I would hate God or how anti-religion I would be if I was Sarah Maxwell or Jana Duggar and these stupid ideas have screwed up my life.

[pixydust]

I would imagine quite a few fundie kids don't believe, but they don't realize that it is a valid way of life to NOT be fundie. When I was a fundie lite kid, I thought that in order to be a good person, you had to be a Christian, I can imagine for many of them it is the same way.

[liltwinstar]

I'm sure there are kids who don't believe.

I know when I was growing up, I *tried* to believe, I really did - I did all the stuff they say you're supposed to do - pray for faith, fast, whatever - and I realize now that I never really believed in Jesus the way I was supposed to. I wanted to believe in God/Jesus, but it was such a struggle for me. Sometimes I would have little bursts of belief, but that never lasted. I figured if I could be *more* devout, do *more* somehow, I would eventually get there. So, strangely, my lack of belief turned me into a religious zealot! How weird is that? I could spout all the theological stuff - ate it up, actually - but it was never really a deep, core belief.

Strangely, I *did* believe in hell/the devil - I found it easier to believe that I would be punished for lack of belief than I did to just believe in God! It was very strange.

I was afraid to express my doubts because what would be the point? You still have to live like you believe anyway - it's not like I could have said "Mom and Dad, I'm having doubts about Jesus so I'm just gonna stay home from church this week, k?" That would not have gone well. So, you just keep trying harder and harder because what choice do you have?

[Kishiria]

I was raised Catholic fundie lite, in that there were only me and my brother for kids and we wore regular clothes. When I doubted as a teen, I was told, "You go to church every Sunday or get out of our house."

As a feminist, it was really hard to stay in that male-dominated situation, but I'd had hell and the Devil inculcated in me so much that was always at the back of my mind when I spent years away from Catholicism as an adult.

Finally I had my crisis of faith and tried hard atheism for a while. That wasn't my thing, but four years later I'm sitting here not believing in any all-powerful, all-knowing God and thinking more in terms about nature and the interconnectedness of all persons as the Sacred.

I'm forty-six and still worried about my mom's reaction when I finally sit down and tell her I'm not Christian anymore.

All of which comes around to saying...a Duggar or Maxwell kid who doubts must lie there at night wondering what is wrong with them and praying to a non-existent God to speak to them.

[PennySycamore]

A dear friend of mine who had been an ordained Unity minister told me one time that deep down most people really don't believe in God. Gary did, though, and he had a very deep faith. Not long before he died in a wreck almost 2 years ago, he'd been ordained in the Orthodox Church of France. He'd also been the supply pastor of the MCC congregation here even though he was straight. These men who were restarting their congregation needed a pastor so Gary stepped up to the plate. Gary was one of the finest men I've ever been privileged to know.

The man who started the local secular humanist society graduated from Bob Jones. His faith was destroyed by the cheering of the Bob Jones students when they heard that Martin Luther King had been assassinated.

[Hane]

A dear friend of mine who had been an ordained Unity minister told me one time that deep down most people really don't believe in God. Gary did, though, and he had a very deep faith. Not long before he died in a wreck almost 2 years ago, he'd been ordained in the Orthodox Church of France. He'd also been the supply pastor of the MCC congregation here even though he was straight. These men who were restarting their congregation needed a pastor so Gary stepped up to the plate. Gary was one of the finest men I've ever been privileged to know.

The man who started the local secular humanist society graduated from Bob Jones. His faith was destroyed by the cheering of the Bob Jones students when they heard that Martin Luther King had been assassinated.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh my God. There are no words.

[fakepigtails73]

His faith was destroyed by the cheering of the Bob Jones students when they heard that Martin Luther King had been assassinated.

:o Some cheered when MLK was murdered??

I guess that shouldn't surprise me, but it does. What happened to "christian charity"? Horrible. One can disagree with someone and still be sad at his assassination.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

On a somewhat related issue in the Jewish version, you can google around "orthoprax" - basically people who don't believe in God (usually) but for various reasons continue to follow all the rules of Orthodox (often "ultra-Orthodox") Judaism. Basically they hide their non-belief.

People posting about it are often from communities that absolutely would shun them if they were to stop observance, so some of the talk is pretty hard to read. Particularly when the next generation of kids is involved, I can't imagine the stress - because part of being observant in those circles is to send the kids for an indoctrinating education that often shuns secular studies, so if it's your kid, and you've fully arrived at completely non-believing or even feeling hostile to the whole thing, yeah you want to keep the relationship with your kids, but on the other hand, do you want your kids being indoctrinated into what you now feel are very harmful beliefs?

...so I'd imagine there has to be a Christian version of some of this too.

There are some similar stories with the Amish, though they have the "out" of not getting baptized at all (as teens or early twenties, usually) in which case they won't perfectly fit in with the community anymore obviously, but they won't get shunned. I know someone (man) who took that path.

If by some miracle one of the Maxwell kids were to wake up unbelieving, I can't imagine Steve would tolerate it in the slightest, so either they'd be keeping that under wraps or else it would blow up and they'd be kicked out of the house. On the other hand, while I think they COULD end up non-believing if they had a serious trial that made them question the faith (though the death of their young baby relative HAD to be trying already...) I would imagine that due to the indoctrination they'd be among the "the only valid way to live is Christian" people and so end up hating themselves more than anything. But, pure speculation on my part.

FWIW I have a strongly atheist neighbor originally from Wales, he says a big part of his atheism was being forced to attend religious schools as a child, sitting there in the required church services and thinking about stuff. He's a theoretical physicist.

[Rosa]

When I was a teenager and my parents were at the fundy-est point in their lives, I told them it was bullshit and I hated church and I wasn't going anymore.

My dad bullied me and said I had to go anyway- he'd come and roll my ass out of bed (literally, grab the blankets and dump my ass out of bed) on Sunday mornings and shout at me til I went to church with him.

My mom guilted - "oh just pretend and get confirmed or grandma will cry!" "You have to be in the choir or your friends will feel alone!"

[ladypuglover]

You sound very similar in personality to my son. We raised our kids in an evangelical Christian home. I homeschooled my children in the early grades and then they went public school. I could tell my son didn't believe what we taught him. He wasn't disrespectful to me, but constantly questioned everything. He is studying to become a science teacher. I think it would be the perfect job for him. We have decided to agree to disagree about his beliefs verses mine. He goes to church on Christmas Eve because the rest of the family does and we would miss him if he didn't. Plus he likes our friends from church. I am sure there are plenty of fundie children who don't believe but don't have the freedom to buck the crowd. I feel for these kids. Faith in God is an individual decision and shouldn't be forced on your family members.

^ This. We raised and still are with the younger ones and they all know that we love them no matter how they choose to believe. We have a "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" kind of veiw of raising our children in religion.

[Sax Russell]

I've definitely wondered about fundy kids' belief before. I'm not sure really young kids can believe in God - I'm not even sure they can be atheist - but as these fundy kids get older and (I hope) learn more about the world? Never mind the petty indignities of daily life - look at all the disasters in the world. Katrina, the earthquake in Japan, Chernobyl, epic droughts, the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide, the Detroit Lions 0-16 season... I simply don't understand how you can reconcile a loving God with the foregoing. So much suffering, and where is God?

I suppose a lot of these kids simply don't know that not believing in God is a valid choice. It's not valid to anyone they know, after all. Sigh, this thread makes me really upset... there's a big, fantastically *interesting* world out there! We'll never be able to learn everything about it, but we can sure have fun trying!