santorum and the dead baby

[gustava]

OK. I will never in a gazillion years vote for Santorum, much less invite him to dinner. He's dreadful. And I have only revulsion for taking a dead fetus home to share with your children. And snarking is my second favorite past time... I won't tell you the first ....

However, Santorum and wife did not abort that fetus. They attempted fetal surgery; wifey developed infection; shit happened.

While they want to deny every other female the option of an abortion (aka choice), they didn't attempt to abort this fetus.

[demgirl]

The story has varied throughout the years, from things that sound slightly more like an abortion (administering pitocin) to things that sound less like an abortion (allowing childbirth to happen spontaneously after the infection). Either way, she obviously did not have an abortion in the traditional sense that one thinks of an abortion. On the other hand, for a man who thinks health exceptions for abortions are "phoney", I really don't care whether we get his story correct. But I don't think people can be blamed for getting confused -- the story varies, according to when the Santorums told it and who is publishing it.

[bananacat]

First of all, nobody aborts a fetus. Pregnancies are aborted. Process are aborted, not people or things or babies or fetuses.

Second, it's sad that you've jumped onto the abortion-denier bandwagon. Technically his wife induced labor before the fetus was viable, but they know what would happen. There was no chance of saving the fetus or the pregnancy. The only way to survive was to get it out of her. If they actually attempted surgery, after that went south there was definitely an abortion.

If I had an elective abortion, I could just say that I didn't actually have an abortion. I only induced labor at 10 weeks and when the fetus didn't survive, that was God's problem. Catholics like Santorum are fantastic at splitting hairs, but to any normal person his wife simply had a therapeutic abortion. If any other woman did the exact same thing, Santorum would condemn it. If he had the power, he would make it illegal. He would absolutely view it as an abortion if anyone else were involved.

[bananacat]

The story has varied throughout the years, from things that sound slightly more like an abortion (administering pitocin) to things that sound less like an abortion (allowing childbirth to happen spontaneously after the infection). Either way, she obviously did not have an abortion in the traditional sense that one thinks of an abortion. On the other hand, for a man who thinks health exceptions for abortions are "phoney", I really don't care whether we get his story correct. But I don't think people can be blamed for getting confused -- the story varies, according to when the Santorums told it and who is publishing it.

That's because people like Santorum have changed the public perception of what abortion actually is. But to the medical community, this was an abortion just like all late-term abortions.

[Rachel333]

It really isn't clear that she induced labor. It sounds like they gave her antibiotics that had the possibility of causing premature labor, but at that point she still wanted to continue the pregnancy. What is clear is that Rick Santorum would have had the doctors induce labor if it had not happened on its own, and she admitted later that doing that would be acceptable in her case. They may or may not have actually induced labor, but it is clear that they are hypocrites.

[JenniferJuniper]

They didn't want to end the pregnancy, I'll agree with that.

But there is a real question as to whether they agreed (actually, whether he agreed, she was delirious with fever at the time) to allow labor to be induced to save her. The fetus was nonviable and was all but certain to die shortly after it was delivered. Which it did.

The Santorums spoke to many news outlets always saying they never had to "make the decision" to induce, as the delivery came without any inducement drugs, but that's the Santorums' story only. The doctors can't talk and as far as I know the Santorums have never okayed them talking, but some time ago, I read an article quoting a physician who reviewed their story and concluded that in all likelihood they did deliberately induce to safe the mother's life. And that it was the right and medically necessary thing to do.

All the Santorums will admit to is that they would have probably induced "if they had to" which in and of itself is total hypocrisy, regardless of what really did happen.

[sassyNoz47]

see I don't know what to believe now because I've see his wife in quotes making statments that they were told if they didn't induce she would die and she didn't want to but then thought of leaving her children motherless changed her mind. Some were questioning WHY she didn't choose to wait one more week when the fetus would of had a small chance of viablilty. Then I also heard it was a partial birth abortion. Honestly I don't care it was there decision however if they are going to continue to preach this is the way and the only way I think they need to sit down and discuss what really happened to thier baby. If he wasn't going down the pro-life movement then I'd say its none of our business but since he is going that way then I guess it is our business.

[desertvixen]

In the end, it doesn't really matter if the labor was induced by deliberate drugs or was a result of antibiotics.

Karen Santorum had a wanted pregnancy that had a severe problem. They attempted to fix that defect (at risk to her own life), and were not successful.

The doctors took steps to save Karen Santorum's life. Those steps resulted in what was effectively a late-term abortion.

They made their choice, and would deny other women the chance to make their own. That is the problem.

They can argue "double effect" and that it was in line with Catholic teachings, and whatever else they want.

They made what they saw as the best choice for their situation, their family, their lives - and would deny others that because they find it wrong.

[JenniferJuniper]

see I don't know what to believe now because I've see his wife in quotes making statments that they were told if they didn't induce she would die and she didn't want to but then thought of leaving her children motherless changed her mind. Some were questioning WHY she didn't choose to wait one more week when the fetus would of had a small chance of viablilty. Then I also heard it was a partial birth abortion. Honestly I don't care it was there decision however if they are going to continue to preach this is the way and the only way I think they need to sit down and discuss what really happened to thier baby. If he wasn't going down the pro-life movement then I'd say its none of our business but since he is going that way then I guess it is our business.

I think there is some confusion between statements made at the time and more recent statements made by the Santorums.

According to the Santorums (again, our only source of information), they were told the fetus had a fatal defect but they opted to do surgery in the womb. The surgery lead to an intrauterine infection and raging fever which threatened Karen Santorum's life. Doctors told Rick that if the fetus, the source of the infection, wasn't removed, she would die very soon. Doctors recommended immediate inducement, but Karen (who again, has a raging fever and is delirious at this point) supposedly only agreed to antibiotics, which the Santorums say they believe brought on the delivery.

Others think its much more likely that the Santorums agreed to inducement drugs to bring about the delivery of the non-viable fetus and save Karen's life. Many would consider that an "'abortion".

Santorum would only admit to the Philadelphia Inquirer that “if that had to be the call, we would have induced labor if we had to." Yet, he's not in favor of abortions to save the lives of any other women on the planet.

[HOTW]

I doubt we'll never know th efull issues because of a lack of medical info however I will say that having aduaghter with Trisomy 18 is not easy either! It is a death sentence very few children survive to their teen years and there are amny complications-to downgrade it to similar to Down's is underdescriptive to say the least. Having a friend whose Gdaughter was born with T18 we saw the ups and downs til she passed away at 10. I will give them credit for this child at least!

[0KidsAndHappy]

They made what they saw as the best choice for their situation, their family, their lives - and would deny others that because they find it wrong.

:clap:

And all of this is from Karen Santorum's own book.

What they had falls under a very simple definition of abortion. It wasn't wrong for her to do and she and her family absolutely should not be ridiculed for it. However, Rick Santorum should be ridiculed for his own platform of denying women this life saving choice if they ever should need it.

[Austin]

With Santorum and Gingrich both, I just want to shout, "It's the hypocrisy, Stupid!"

I don't personally care what private decisions either of them made. I do, however, care that they would deny those choices to others.

[Daenerys]

That's because people like Santorum have changed the public perception of what abortion actually is. But to the medical community, this was an abortion just like all late-term abortions.

Not necessarily. If the loss of the baby was a side effect of medication rather than the intended outcome then it would be considered a miscarriage or stillbirth.

[0KidsAndHappy]

I don't personally care what private decisions either of them made. I do, however, care that they would deny those choices to others.

This is what it all comes down to for me. If someone wants to hate people who are homosexual, or think that a woman ending a pregnancy to save her own life is wrong, or believe that earth is only 6000 years old ... fine. That doesn't have any impact on my life and it never will. I will choose not to cross paths with those people and I'm sure they'd think the same of me. But when someone like that wants to govern my life and impose their own completely absurd lifestyle upon me, there is a big problem.

Some on the right might say that my socialist liberal bolshevik lifestyle is already the law of the land ... But until Jim Bob and Gil Bates are forced into a homosexual marriage, women can't make it to their second term because abortions are the law of the land, and On the Origin of Species sits in the back of every pew, I'm going to have to disagree. :snooty:

[starfish]

I think someone on FJ opined that it would have been safer for Karen to have a proper late-term abortion than whatever the heck transpired...