Indoctrination of girls

[Knight of Ni]

A comment on the thread about the trans-gendered Girl Scout reminded me of a scene from the special about the Bates family. The scene was where they went to the ATI camp. The thing that really pissed me off was while the boys got to play games and do activities outside the girls were forced to stay inside and sing about how much they love to do laundry and other house work. Does this remind anyone else of the way the Hitler youth camps were conducted or the way North Korean children are taught to love their "dear leader"?

Kelly Bates can say as much as she wants that the girls choose to do that but it is all bullshit. The reporter actually asked her if she didn't think that it was a little unfair that the boys got to have all the fun. Kelly Bates actually admitted that several girls actually expressed a preference to participate in the outdoor activities. She said that would be something "they'd have to look into". I don't believe for a second that she actually will. She was just trying to answer the question in a way that didn't say "The girls have no choice. They will have to do all the housework when they are adults so it's better for them that they be convinced to enjoy it."

Anyone else notice this as well?

[Jessica]

They've been in ATI for probably 15 years now, at least. They know the routine. If they were truly interested in letting the girls have fun rock-climbing and playing outside, Kelly would have "suggested" it a long time ago. But she acts innocently surprised about it, like she never even thought about it before or didn't know that that's what the girls were doing.

[supernova8610]

It seems like these people think they're living in the 1600s instead of the 21st century..

[deelaem]

It does frustrate me that no one in the media is willing to call ATI/Gothard what it is - a cult. You're quite correct in your observation that what they do is indoctrination. It's actually rather silly to even interview them, because you'll never get anything besides the party line. Jessica is right, Kelly Bates' reply was just a deflection, they have no intention of changing anything.

[DCmilly]

It seems like these people think they're living in the 1600s instead of the 21st century..

[Deleted07]

Absolutely indoctrination!

and definitely living in the early centuries of oppression! , not these modern times of freedom!

[kb2]

TLC glosses over a lot, but I think even they were disturbed by the ATI camp, and spliced the images of the girl and boy activities so the differences (and lameness of what the girls were doing) was clear.

[YPestis]

These girls are brought up to believe they are protected and envied by others. I hardly think hardcore indoctrination is required. Children are incredibly easy to manipulate if done in a nonabusive environment. Plus, most are isolated so they don't catch a glimpse of what the world may offer them. Only if these children are exposed to the outside world will they truly understand what their parents did to them.

[marmalade]

They've been in ATI for probably 15 years now, at least. They know the routine. If they were truly interested in letting the girls have fun rock-climbing and playing outside, Kelly would have "suggested" it a long time ago. But she acts innocently surprised about it, like she never even thought about it before or didn't know that that's what the girls were doing.

I can't believe people out there are stupid enough to buy the shit she's selling. IMO, she's an even bigger bitch than Michelle and that's saying something. Don't forget, this is a woman peed on a stick at a truckstop at 3am so they could roll into the Duggars' crib and announce a pregnancy on their first appearance (with clown dresses on ALL the girls) on the show.

[Knight of Ni]

There was also this episode of Wife Swap that I watched that absolutely infuriated me. It involved two christian families whose approach to Christianity was extremely different. The one family had two girls who were encouraged to grow up and do anything they wanted for a career. The wife was an episcopalian priest. The other family on the other hand were full on fundie in beliefs but not in appearance. (The girls wore pants and were allowed to cut their hair).

The first thing the wife in this family talked about was how a woman's place was at home because the bible says that women are the "weaker vessel" and meant to be a helpmeet to their husband. The two oldest girls who were twins had definitely swallowed the kool-aid, one of them said that her sole aspiration in life was to be a dutiful wife. Then they moved to the middle girl whose opinions were "different" than the rest of the family. She said she wanted to be a doctor. When their new wife stepped in to live with them she encouraged the girl to follow her dreams and become a doctor. One of the older girls called their dad at work and said the wife was taking advantage and encouraging the girl's rebellion. They actually considered wanting to be a doctor as being rebellious. :angry-screaming:

The dad came rushing home and removed the younger girls from the house for the night. So the "evil" woman couldn't influence his children and had a talk with the girl. The next morning it showed her back at the house in the living room with the rest of the family. She told the family that she had been wrong and she realized she was meant to be a SAHM. She was crying when she said this. I feel extremely sorry for this poor child and hope that when she is old enough she can leave and achieve her dream of being a doctor.

Something tells me that this kind of thing occurs more often than this one time. The Duggars and many other fundie families have probably had similar talks with their girls. This is absolutely heartbreaking.

[dairyfreelife]

A comment on the thread about the trans-gendered Girl Scout reminded me of a scene from the special about the Bates family. The scene was where they went to the ATI camp. The thing that really pissed me off was while the boys got to play games and do activities outside the girls were forced to stay inside and sing about how much they love to do laundry and other house work. Does this remind anyone else of the way the Hitler youth camps were conducted or the way North Korean children are taught to love their "dear leader"?

Kelly Bates can say as much as she wants that the girls choose to do that but it is all bullshit. The reporter actually asked her if she didn't think that it was a little unfair that the boys got to have all the fun. Kelly Bates actually admitted that several girls actually expressed a preference to participate in the outdoor activities. She said that would be something "they'd have to look into". I don't believe for a second that she actually will. She was just trying to answer the question in a way that didn't say "The girls have no choice. They will have to do all the housework when they are adults so it's better for them that they be convinced to enjoy it."

Anyone else notice this as well?

Raises hand. That was me. I saw that episode too and that's why I mentioned it. There camp/group fun with other girls is anything but fun. I feel terrible for the girls. They don't have any options except to be a submissive wife and breed until it kills them (and home births almost always and ignoring doctors to continue breeding-if all these girls continue that one could very well and very sadly end up dead).

[ADoyle90815]

There was also this episode of Wife Swap that I watched that absolutely infuriated me. It involved two christian families whose approach to Christianity was extremely different. The one family had two girls who were encouraged to grow up and do anything they wanted for a career. The wife was an episcopalian priest. The other family on the other hand were full on fundie in beliefs but not in appearance. (The girls wore pants and were allowed to cut their hair).

The first thing the wife in this family talked about was how a woman's place was at home because the bible says that women are the "weaker vessel" and meant to be a helpmeet to their husband. The two oldest girls who were twins had definitely swallowed the kool-aid, one of them said that her sole aspiration in life was to be a dutiful wife. Then they moved to the middle girl whose opinions were "different" than the rest of the family. She said she wanted to be a doctor. When their new wife stepped in to live with them she encouraged the girl to follow her dreams and become a doctor. One of the older girls called their dad at work and said the wife was taking advantage and encouraging the girl's rebellion. They actually considered wanting to be a doctor as being rebellious. :angry-screaming:

The dad came rushing home and removed the younger girls from the house for the night. So the "evil" woman couldn't influence his children and had a talk with the girl. The next morning it showed her back at the house in the living room with the rest of the family. She told the family that she had been wrong and she realized she was meant to be a SAHM. She was crying when she said this. I feel extremely sorry for this poor child and hope that when she is old enough she can leave and achieve her dream of being a doctor.

Something tells me that this kind of thing occurs more often than this one time. The Duggars and many other fundie families have probably had similar talks with their girls. This is absolutely heartbreaking.

I admit I saw that episode, probably when Lifetime had one of those marathons. It also made me angry as well, since that asshole made his family believe that anything other than being a SAHM/handmaid is a sign of "rebellion." I only hope that girl is eventually able to break free and live up to her dream of becoming a doctor.

[Maude]

The same thing happened with Johanna Duggar. I can't remember the episode, but she said she wanted to be a doctor when asked what she wanted to be when she grew up, but she later 'changed her mind' and wanted to be a 'store girl' or something. No doubt she was told the same thing - that girls can't be doctors (nevermind Michelle's utilization of them). :roll:

[virginmojito]

It's a total oppression! They use fear and guilt, it always work. And if they see that any of the girls disagree, the girl will be sent to 'Further education' (Orwell's 1984) to indoctrination camps. I WONDER what is really going on in those camps, but the kids come out quiet and obedient. They sent JANA to an indoctrination camp recently, in secret, remember? When she went to SE Asia with JD... cameramen followed them around. And now? How come they barely touched the subject? Jana's whereabouts? I wonder what happened. Did she tell them off? Did she have a breakdown?! She was sent to a camp *shudder* because of something. JimBob won't spend THAT amount of money for no reasons.

[Maude]

I'm holding out hope that Jana's questioning the crazy, and that's the reason for her absence.

[Deleted07]

Yeah I have been speculating that Jana is biding her time looking for an out, but I could be wrong.

[virginmojito]

Yeah I have been speculating that Jana is biding her time looking for an out, but I could be wrong.

BUT I HOPE YOU ARE NOT WRONG. I think she might have done something and one of her sisters probably ratted her out, so shortly after that she was sent into camp. *gah* Camps have already a bad name, Gothard didn't help much to take the derogative tone away that comes with the word.

Am I being crazy here? I can imagine anything about them. Especially since one of the girls is heavily indoctrinated and she might have thought that she shall "save" her sister from doing eeeebil. And save her from "hellllll".

[Deleted07]

Yeah I always considered Jill a ratty little snot that would go and tell on her siblings while remaining all angelic herself... guh!

[uber frau]

Does anyone remember the 'testimonial' of Kendalynn Staddon (can't remember her maiden name)? She wanted to go to med school, instead she did Gothard's 'nursing' programme and was bullied convinced to go to work in the kitchens at Alert HQ, despite the fact that she disliked cooking.

It's all so depressing: robertloveskendalyn.com/kendalyn/

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah I always considered Jill a ratty little snot that would go and tell on her siblings while remaining all angelic herself... guh!

She's always impressed me as the sort that would have ratted you out to the Nazis for having a radio.

[MrsYoungie]

Does anyone remember the 'testimonial' of Kendalynn Staddon (can't remember her maiden name)? She wanted to go to med school, instead she did Gothard's 'nursing' programme and was bullied convinced to go to work in the kitchens at Alert HQ, despite the fact that she disliked cooking.

It's all so depressing: robertloveskendalyn.com/kendalyn/

I hadn't seen this one before. What does "caution" mean in this context:

All through my life, a common thread of lessons have involved obedience to my heavenly Father through my earthly father no matter the cost; this happened when I wanted to get into medical school and my father had a caution so I ended up taking my Home Health degree through correspondence (which was the best training I could have ever received!);

Poor girl!

[Constance Vigilance]

She's always impressed me as the sort that would have ratted you out to the Nazis for having a radio.

Yeah, it seems she's the little cult princess and she just loves it. There are always some who flourish in these systems.

Edited to add qualifier because I can't actually read her mind.

[rachelsmith1989]

It does frustrate me that no one in the media is willing to call ATI/Gothard what it is - a cult. You're quite correct in your observation that what they do is indoctrination. It's actually rather silly to even interview them, because you'll never get anything besides the party line. Jessica is right, Kelly Bates' reply was just a deflection, they have no intention of changing anything.

I had to write up a research proposal on studying the Quiverfull movement for a class last semester and do a presentation on it as well. During the presentation, my teacher kind of sheepishly suggested that the movement was a cult and I confirmed it. A lot of my classmates were asking questions as well. Fun times

[Conuly]

Does this remind anyone else of the way the Hitler youth camps were conducted or the way North Korean children are taught to love their "dear leader"?

The girls in the Hitler Youth (The League of German Girls) were at least allowed to go out and do things.

I mean, there's some similarity in that the girls were told that the best thing they could do was to have lots and lots of German children, but they did sports and went camping and all that as well.

...

It's kinda a sad commentary when, stacked up with each other, the Hitler Youth looks marginally BETTER, isn't it? (Oddly enough, I have a book at home, the memoirs of a half-Jewish child during WWII. She didn't know she was half-Jewish, and recalls that only one girl in her youth group was really into the whole Nazi thing. The rest of them just joined for the camping and fun times... which often turned out to be unpaid labor instead as the war went on. But they still got to get away from their parents and go outside once in a while.)

[GeoBQn]

The girls in the Hitler Youth (The League of German Girls) were at least allowed to go out and do things.

I mean, there's some similarity in that the girls were told that the best thing they could do was to have lots and lots of German children, but they did sports and went camping and all that as well.

Their activities also apparently included having sex with the boys from Hitler Youth camps that were strategically located next to girls camps. They were not-so-subtly encouraged to have children, even if illegitimate, and resulted in large numbers of girls getting pregnant at camps. There were reportedly 900 girls that left the 1936 Nuremberg rally pregnant.