Duggar Dad Comes Out Against Transgender Girl Scout

[StarrieEyedKat]

Takers, in all seriousness, please take about 15 minutes and watch this. It may allay some of your fears of what you think your daughter would be exposed to.

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[ladypuglover]

Intersexed, in this case, would be a person who has both female and male genitalia. In the case of a child with androgen insensitivity syndrome, they would be completely physically female. They would have a completely female outer appearance. If your supposed hang-up is about girls seeing a penis, why would you question an AIS girl?

Your questions are transphobic because you're letting your ignorance on the issue (either ignorance or prejudice- you pick) gain the upper hand and wrapping it in a thin veil of "won't somebody think of the children!"

First your issue was with them sleeping together. Now it's supposedly with them dressing in front of one another. Here's a simple soluation- EVERYONE gets dressed in the bathroom! That not only protects innocent little girls (the "real" ones) from evil tranny 7 year old penises, but also helps girls who may just be self-conscious or might have a physical disability they don't want others to see.

Nice hand slap.

I honestly wasn't trying to hand slap but I thought I read her as someone trying to ask questions but not knowing how to word it correctly. I could see how she worded it could be taken 2 ways and it seemed to be taken as the wrong way. But I may have jumped the gun and maybe she did mean it as it looks to the majority. That is what I get for assuming. I'm sorry.

eta nice hand slapping on your part too. ;)

[Renting with Raggles]

And you have still not explained your objection. You first said you didn't think it was appropriate for cis girls to see a trans girl's penis. When we pointed out no one would have to see a penis, you said you didn't want someone who didn't look like a girl to sleep in the same room as your daughter. We then pointed out that a physical boy who identifies as a girl is likely to look even girlier than many cis girls, so you’ve copped out to this.

What is your objection based on? It’s likely that if you didn’t tell your daughter that the trans girl was physically a boy, she’d probably never even know.

She doesn't base her objection on anything. She already said she knows nothing about transgendered or intersex people.

[bananacat]

I really, really wish that TLC would show this stuff on tv. This isn't new; they've been angry haters forever. It is so dishonest and deceptive to portray them as just a big happy family. TLC should have showed their true faces long ago.

[Deleted07]

I really, really wish that TLC would show this stuff on tv. This isn't new; they've been angry haters forever. It is so dishonest and deceptive to portray them as just a big happy family. TLC should have showed their true faces long ago.

:clap:

So agree! Their bigotry has become so clear to those of us willing to be objective! But to those who just adore them, continue to defend and make excuses! So much so its actually scary!

[valsa]

I honestly wasn't trying to hand slap but I thought I read her as someone trying to ask questions but not knowing how to word it correctly. I could see how she worded it could be taken 2 ways and it seemed to be taken as the wrong way. But I may have jumped the gun and maybe she did mean it as it looks to the majority. That is what I get for assuming. I'm sorry.

That's okay, I took it as you saying we should be nice to her because she just doesn't know better, which is the kind of thing that drives me nuts. If she was supportive but just didn't understand the terminology, I doubt anyone would have jumped on her.

nice hand slapping on your part too. ;)

I'm not sure that hand slapping someone's hand slapping counts as actual hand slapping. That seems sort of similar to how fundies say we're intolerant because we don't tolerate their intolerance...

Do we have a headache smilie?

[Patsy]

I don't particularly care to google it

So why should posters continue to feed you information, and be nice about it? I get not immediately understanding that a snark forum isn't the right place for intersex 101, that if you're at this stage you mightn't know there was a term like "intersex 101" to get you started, but you've just said "I actively won't seek information, spoon-feed it to me but make concessions for my ignorance and bigotry." You should be able to figure out that that's fucked, even at this stage.

I want to make it clear - I'm not telling you to stop asking, and I'm not telling off anyone for answering. But I want you to understand that that is quite a problematic way to approach the topic. (One that makes me cranky, even!)

Some more URLs:

http://www.etransgender.com/2011/03/com ... alies.html

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2010/05/fre ... ersex.html

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2011/05/sex ... nmark.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001669.htm

http://www.transfaithonline.org/interse ... sex/types/

[Renting with Raggles]

A physical boy who identifies as a girl is different from a physical girl who identifies as a girl. After rereading your question I believe you're asking other than physically how are the two different? Is this so? I would argue that they are also mentally different.

Well, you're arguing from an admitted position of ignorance. There is actual, peer-reviewed data out there that contradicts this assertion you pulled out of your arse. But I forgot, actively seeking information on a subject before you spout off an opinion that others are supposed to take seriously is not your cup of tea, is it?

Fuck, I have no patience with people determined to be ignorant today. The Duggars or any other clowns. I'm going to the Korean hair salon and get a really short cut.

[ladypuglover]

Valsa, I would like to apologise to you. I read your reply to me all wrong and responded in a snotty maner. Not to your reply but in my bad mood. I am sorry and removed what I wrote to put this apology here instead. I misread and acted before thinking things through.

[valsa]

Valsa, I would like to apologise to you. I read your reply to me all wrong and responded in a snotty maner. Not to your reply but in my bad mood. I am sorry and removed what I wrote to put this apology here instead. I misread and acted before thinking things through.

No problem. I made a bitchy post replying to your post which I've also deleted. Let's get back to focusing on what a douchebag Jim Bob is!

[ladypuglover]

No problem. I made a bitchy post replying to your post which I've also deleted. Let's get back to focusing on what a douchebag Jim Bob is!

Done deal. :D

[Deleted07]

I really want to quote Dr Martin Luther King Jnr here!

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

Although I don't want to adjust a profound quote to change its meaning, I think it might be safe to say that the bolded is a great way to live life to anyone different :-)

[takers401]

I guess I don't understand what the hubub is. If a child identifies as a girl, well, she's a girl. As other posters have mentioned, pre-puberty, you really can't tell unless you are checking for genitals. There have been a couple 20/20 types shows and Oprah episodes with transgender kids, and truly, the kids who identify as girls look like girls. The kids who identify as boys look like boys. When a child identifies as a girl, she, like your daughter, can reap the benefits of being in an all-girl environment while not making it somehow less feminine ... for lack of a better word. What desired qualities does the environment suddenly lose if there is a child who was assigned male gender at birth and later identifies female?

What subjects are you uncomfortable broaching with your daughter? In our family, I intend to explain it like this. Sometimes, people are born looking like one gender, but feel like another on the inside. That's OK. We need to respect who they are. If she says she's a girl, she's a girl. If he says he's a boy, he's a boy. I think you'll find that young children are much more understanding and compassionate than many older folks who have been indoctrinated with strict sex/gender lines their whole life.

What changes for your daughter having a trans girl in her cabin? Probably nothing. I went to sleep away Girl Scout camp as a Brownie, shared a tent with two other girls, and I'm pretty sure we never saw each others' biznass.

I think this cannot be stressed enough: a transgender girl is not simply a boy in girls' clothing. When someone is transgender, their entire being, their whole identity, the way they see themselves in the world does not align with the gender they were assigned. The little girl in question, in her fullest understanding of herself, is female. Her external genitalia is probably more upsetting to her than it would potentially be to any troop parent.

I don't know what would change for my daughter. Maybe nothing. Maybe she becomes embarrassed about sleeping in the same room as a girl who is also a boy. Maybe she doesn't care two bits. Maybe she doesn't want to go to camp if she has to be in the cabin with the boy. I don't know. But I have the right to be able to say I have concerns and questions that I'd like to have answered. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to simply say "okay" and have no follow up when they're told that their child will be sleeping in the same cabin as a boy who identifies as a girl.

[mockingbird]

And how is this different than a physical girl who has had to deal with these issues for one reason or another? Sometimes cis girls have to grow up earlier than their peers. You have not shown any indication that, mentally, a 7 year old physical boy who identifies as a girl is any different than a 7 year old physical girl who identifies as a girl. Having had life experiences early does not make one inherently different.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you could argue that I was more mature or "beyond my years" as a 7 year old because I had already gone through multiple severe health issues. That's not something limited to transgender 7 year old girls and also, my health problems weren't any of the other girls' or their parents' business in GS, beyond health forms for the leaders/staff to keep on file in case of an emergency. I'm not sure the other parents or girls would even KNOW the girl is transgendered in the first place, if the girl and her parents didn't want to share that information - and that is their decision; the other parents don't have a right to know. I don't think my having a different life experience and maturity level hurt or threatened the other girls in my troop. That argument doesn't even make any sense. It probably made me feel more different than they felt around me since there wasn't really anything physically different about me that they could see/make me stand out. Maybe the other girls could learn from someone who has had a different life experience than them! It doesn't even have to be directly related to being transgender, but if I saw someone standing up for a friend when I was 7 (who may have the guts to do that because of bullying they have faced) I might be encouraged to do the same in the future.

ITA that it's possible to change in private. I was always more modest and changed in the bathroom at camps and for PE, and at GS camp we perfected the changing-in-your-sleeping-bag and changing-shirts-while-wearing-another-shirt maneuvers. I do remember being super embarrassed at our school outdoor ed camp because I was short and the shower curtains stopped above my waist! I didn't take a shower the whole week because nobody could figure out what to do about it... lol...

[Terrie]

So, a transgirl would have to be more sure in her identity than her peers and have thought about tough questions. Sounds like the kind of girl I'd want my daughter to be friends with.

Honestly, is there a reason behind your objection that doesn't find its roots in the fact that YOU are uncomfortable with the situation? Something based in objective reality rather than knee-jerk "Ewwww. I don't get it; I don't like it."

[valsa]

I don't know what would change for my daughter. Maybe nothing. Maybe she becomes embarrassed about sleeping in the same room as a girl who is also a boy. Maybe she doesn't care two bits. Maybe she doesn't want to go to camp if she has to be in the cabin with the boy. I don't know. But I have the right to be able to say I have concerns and questions that I'd like to have answered. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to simply say "okay" and have no follow up when they're told that their child will be sleeping in the same cabin as a boy who identifies as a girl.

Can we try a little exercise?

I don't know what would change for my daughter. Maybe nothing. Maybe she becomes embarrassed about sleeping in the same room as a girl who is not white. Maybe she doesn't care two bits. Maybe she doesn't want to go to camp if she has to be in the cabin with the black person. I don't know. But I have the right to be able to say I have concerns and questions that I'd like to have answered. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to simply say "okay" and have no follow up when they're told that their child will be sleeping in the same cabin as a black child.

If we can very easily change a statement you make to one that would not have been out of place in the mouth of a bigot from 60 years ago, maybe you should realize that your point of view is really fucked up.

[takers401]

I guess the toughest thing she'd face would be all those mothers who would suddenly be 'concerned' that their daughters were no longer in an all girls' environment!

What do you even mean, what you can or can't do for her? Do you honestly believe that you could change your child's karyotype? Or do you mean you would force her phenotype to reflect her XY chromosome - through chemical or surgical intervention? Would you keep her condition a secret and continue to let her go through life as female? After all, you are the one advocating pulling down the pants of another person's 7 year old to determine whether they're of the 'right' gender to associate with your daughter? Don't other parents have the same right to determine whether your child fits their uninformed ideas of sex and gender by having similar access to all information about her?

The bold parts are why I feel sorry for your child.

You like being deliberately ignorant, and you're trying to challenge the GSUSA who have used real data to form their policy. There is no reason for you to be incognizant of the wealth of information we have either about transgendered people or intersexed conditions. Oh yeah - except that you're too lazy to google. I wonder what other medical conditions you like to ignore, and how this will affect your child in her lifetime? I can only hope it's something like an intersex condition which is not fatal, unless her benighted parent decides to stone her to death or something.

Or maybe I could see if we need to get a counselor for her to see while she goes through the inevitable struggle, or find a support group to join. Assuming that upon finding out this news I would try to keep it a secret or surgically alter her without her knowing is very presumptuous and wrong. And I am certainly not advocating pulling down another child's pants to determine if they're fit to be around my daughter. I never stated that my daughter is to not associate with a transgender person. Nor did I state that upon finding out a transgender person was in my daughter's cabin I would yank her out. All I said was that I was curious how the logistics of such would work. I have stated that I do have concerns and questions regarding this situation, but in no way have I expressed that I wouldn't end up leaving my daughter at camp in the cabin with a transgendered person and expect her to have a gloriously fun time.

You feel sorry for my child because in discussing a hypothetical situation on a chat forum I'm not spending copious amounts of time researching a topic that I am unfamiliar with and instead gleaning information from members who are more aware of said situation than I? Okay.

I am not challenging the decision by GSUSA. I have stated that I would keep my daughter in her troop and let her attend camp. I ignore lots of medical conditions. I don't know the treatments for rosacea. I don't know what syndromes different chromosome anomalies cause. There are many medical conditions that I am unaware of. Should it be determined that my daughter (of husband, or any other family member) has a medical condition then I will research the heck out of it to find out as much as I possibly can.

[daharyn]

A physical boy who identifies as a girl is different from a physical girl who identifies as a girl.

Um, no. She's not. That's exactly what everyone on this Extremely Patient Snark Board has been trying to tell you, takers. I hope you took the time to watch the video posted on this thread!

I do have a question--a lot of you seem to be referring to these hypothetical individuals as transgendered. Um, my trans friends told me to leave that final syllable off, as in the title of the post?

Also, there's a great Trans 101 public google doc: https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcHP ... 3&hl=en_US

[snarkbillie]

I do have a question--a lot of you seem to be referring to these hypothetical individuals as transgendered. Um, my trans friends told me to leave that final syllable off, as in the title of the post?

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip! :D

[Witsec7]

or surgically alter her without her knowing

I'm sure that you are unaware that Drs no longer advocate this practice in the best interests of the child. These surgeries were done for the convenience of the parents many years ago but that is no longer the case.

[QAF_Rocks]

Here's an actual transgender seven-year-old:

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I honestly don't know how anyone could watch that video and say that transgender girls are somehow strange or different or a threat to other girls.

[valsa]

I do have a question--a lot of you seem to be referring to these hypothetical individuals as transgendered. Um, my trans friends told me to leave that final syllable off, as in the title of the post?

Both are used (I've even seen an article by a transgender person discussing this issue) but your friend is correct that "transgender" is the recommended usage. It's kinda like the difference between between "preventive" and "preventative".

[kb2]

Both are used (I've even seen an article by a transgender person discussing this issue) but your friend is correct that "transgender" is the recommended usage. It's kinda like the difference between between "preventive" and "preventative".

Sorry. I started without the -ed, but then was afraid that was wrong, so I switched over, wrongly.

[valsa]

Sorry. I started without the -ed, but then was afraid that was wrong, so I switched over, wrongly.

I used to use the "-ed" all the time and I probably still do when I'm not thinking about it (I'm sure I've used it in this thread) I don't think it's considered super offensive, just incorrect.

[keeperrox]

I tend to disagree. At the age of 7, while features don't include chest or facial hair, boys and girls look like boys and girls.

Huh. Really? Which one of these girls below was born male?

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

My real question is, why is it anyone else's business what the child in question was born as if they are identifying and living as a female? These girls we are talking about might have been born with penises, but they aren't your stereotypical boy child.

So, again I ask, can YOU identify the transgendered child above?