Josh courting before Anna?

[alysee]

I have been a lurker for a couple of weeks and I noticed someone mentioned about Josh courting someone before? What's up with that? Do we know who it was?

 

alysee

[O Latin]

I know some people got all investigative trying to figure this out and I didn't, but I always thought it was speculation, based on either Jim Bob or Jim Holt (I can't remember which) blaming a lost election on "sin in the camp," which caused a rift between the Duggars and the Holts (Josh was supposedly engaged to a Holt). I figured this was just internet gossip that people eventually came to accept as "fact" after it was speculated about enough, although I think someone said that Cousin Amy confirmed on Facebook that Josh was engaged once before, not that everything Amy says is necessarily true, nor is confirmation that Josh was previously engaged necessarily confirmation of the "sin in the camp" story.

That's what I know. Most of the speculation about this took place before I really followed the Duggars, so I may have left out or screwed up some details.

[dawn9476]

I don't think they were actually courting. More like they were arranged to start courting probably around the age he was when he started courting Anna. He was only 16 when that arrangement with other girl was called off I think.

[bionicmlle]

It's funny I always thought that that "sin in the camp" accusation had to do with Josh's masturbation not necessarily actions with a/the girl he was courting. I realize I could be completely wrong and I think my information came from the TWOP board which isn't exactly the bastion of investigative integrity.

[moreorlessnu]

When Josh and Anna started courting/became engaged/whatever, Josh said they had a conversation w/ JB and M to decide whether they should kiss or wait to kiss or just hold hands, etc. That made it seem like this was the first real courtship/engagement/whatever. Otherwise, they would have hashed these details out earlier.

Either that, or the discussion about kissing/holding hands/whatever was totally fabricated for TLC's benefit.

[justlurking]

When Josh and Anna started courting/became engaged/whatever, Josh said they had a conversation w/ JB and M to decide whether they should kiss or wait to kiss or just hold hands, etc. That made it seem like this was the first real courtship/engagement/whatever. Otherwise, they would have hashed these details out earlier.

Either that, or the discussion about kissing/holding hands/whatever was totally fabricated for TLC's benefit.

I don't remember that part of the special. I do remember Michelle and JB telling Josh and Anna that they could kiss once they were married--and then proceeded to be all kissy faced in front of them.

I know awhile back someone had asked Cousin Amy on her Facebook page whether Josh had been engaged/betrothed before Anna and she said "yes".

[emmiedahl]

I've always got the feeling that Josh is somewhat of a wild card, that he just didn't toe the line well enough. I think they may have made the 'sacrifice' of marrying him off to settle him down a little and get him out of their hair.

If Josh had to break off a relationship because of inappropriate contact, it makes sense that he and his parents would have a long talk about boundaries. Both parties would want it to go well this time.

The fact that they were so happy to marry him off, but seem determined to keep the others at home, suggests that either he wasn't a lot of help or that he was a liability in some way.

[xDreamerx]

As far as I know, this whole thing started because of a comment someone posted on a forum about them claiming to know them and know the inside details. There was a link to it on the old board. That's also how the molestation rumours got started but it's never been substantiated.

If he has been engaged, it's more likely that he did he something most of us would consider innocent like kissing and it got blown way out of proportion because these people consider the most minor things to be sinful.

[ladypuglover]

I seem to remember that Josh stated on a show that he courted before Anna and how they talked about it during their courtship. I may be wrong though.

[twin2]

There is only one way to get to the bottom of this: Have someone head over to DWOP and ask Cyn. She knows everything there is to know about the Duggers and can provide citations. However, be aware whatever she does know she will spin to prove that the Duggars are THE BEST FAMILY EVER!!11!!

[xDreamerx]

There is only one way to get to the bottom of this: Have someone head over to DWOP and ask Cyn. She knows everything there is to know about the Duggers and can provide citations. However, be aware whatever she does know she will spin to prove that the Duggars are THE BEST FAMILY EVER!!11!!

LOL. So true.

[Alecto]

As a former political reporter at the Arkansas state capital, this is the story as I know it:

Josh and the oldest Holt daughter were courting, and something "inappropriate" happened. From what I have heard, it was likely something only the inane fundies would think inappropriate, like holding hands or being alone together in the same room. Either way, it got spun into "Josh touched some girl inappropriately."

This all happened about the same time JimBoob last ran for congress, and lost. Badly. The loss was blamed on God's punishment for Josh's actions, and Josh was sent off to some sort of ATI reform program.

[PBrooke]

I feel like, as time goes on, this turns more and more into a game of telephone, so I went back as far as I could - to the source of the original rumors. They come in the form of two separate comments, on an article about the Duggars from an article from 2006: http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006 ... ay-on-tlc/

For posterity's sake, I'll quote the relevant comments. If this isn't allowed mods can feel free to remove it.

First, a commenter named "Alice" comments in 2007, and says:

Let me tell you something about the precious Duggars that you don’t know. First, Michelle hasn’t bathed her younger children in years. It is all left up to the older children. They have children that have never seen the inside of a grocery store. Everything that you have seen on TV is staged. Big Time.

Michelle hasn’t cooked a meal in years. Hasn’t cleaned house in years. All she does is try to look norman for the TV camera’s. Get real. This couple is out for the fame and money that they can get. They receive “Love Offering†from all over the country. They have church services in their home when it is to their advantage. They get paid for that.

He and his mother “Mary†has this all figured out. She is fame hungry and she couldn’t manage this for herself and now she is helping out Jim Bob and Michelle. She calls different TV shows and exploits her grandchildren. This is the Duggar’s way of making a living and providing for the huge family. Fame and Fortune In January, the whole family went to Chicago and taped Oprah Winfrey show. Oprah wined and dined them for one week. You know that had to cost some pretty pennies. As you may have noticed, that show never aired and it never will. Oprah was informed that Josh, the oldest son, had been molesting his sisters. Yes, this is the truth. Oprah turned them over to the Arkansas State Police Child Protection Agency and the Washington County Child Protection Agency. They have been investigated to some length. Jim Bob Duggar told the producers of the show that he built a small church out back for his followers. HIS FOLLOWERS. GET REAL. THE MAN IS A FRAUD. In April, they were in court with their story. They have to report to Arkansas Department of Human Services every six months.. They have lied and lied about their son to protect him at their daughters expense. For some unknown reason the boy is still in the home with the girls. God only know if this is still going on. In my eyes he is a CHILD MOLESTOR. HE SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE HOME. What kind of parents cover up for one child and hurt the others. I do not believe that this is what God has in mind for them. Frauding the American people and taking their money and living off of it.

They did not build their home by themselves. They hired it done. The

Discovery Health Channel and the TLC channel wrote them a check for over $200,000. for the to build the house. Everything inside the house was given to them except the kitchen. They did buy that themselves. The rest is all free. Mary and Josh was on the phone day and night asking for donations from soup to Computers. They also received a Baby Grand Piano from Campbell Soup Co. The trip to California was also provided by the TV Stations. It was mapped out. Mile for Mile. They did not spend a penny of their money. All the groceries and gas and lodging and clothing was paid for in advance. For someone who wants to be famous, why lie about the facts. Seems funny to me. They are professional liers, both of them.. They twist their words to make them look good and and look like devoted parents and a great big happy family. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you don’t believe me, contact the Arkansas State Police Child Protection Agency in Bentonville, Ar. and the Washington County Child Protection Agency in Fayetteville. It will be worth the time and effort to read all about it. There is a lot more that I could go into but I simply do not have that much time. I think that is time the the Duggar’s are stopped. They are pimping out their family for material things to keep them fed and clothed. If they cannot feed and clothe their children, don’t have them.

Later comments (you can read them) have other commenters questioning "Alice," and she isn't terribly convincing - first she says Josh confessed in front of his church, then, when it was brought up that they home church, she said he confessed to looking at porn... it's murky, to say the least, and far more likely to be a half-truth (maybe he did confess to looking at porno) that was spun out of control. I find it interesting that the commenter seems to have the biggest problem with Grandma Duggar, which sort of makes me think maybe it's some old biddy spreading malicious lies with just enough truth to make it believable.

The second rumor, the sin the camp bit, appears about 3/4 of the way down, by a poster named Starlightdreamer. However, note that that is not the original poster - they were reposting it to this discussion because they thought it was relevant. It apparently originated from http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discu ... post=95753 , but I got a 404 error when I went to check it out. Though this repost was from 2008, all the original posting info is there, and it was apparently posted in 2005, by a poster named concernedmom.

Food for thought:

concernedmom (concernedmom)

New member

Username: concernedmom

Post Number: 1

Registered: 4-2005

Posted From: 70.178.0.67

Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 2:41 pm: Edit Post Delete Post Print Post Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

WOW! andyman! You are right on with all you say. I have attended a couple of basic seminars when I was a teen and young adult(somewhat awhile back). Like you stated previously, I took what seemed to be the good stuff and left the goofy. Then, about 6 years ago, I met my now best friend. Her husband was very interested in IBLP and ATI. They learned about it through a home church here in our area. The families mostly belong to ATI, some since the very beginnings of ATI. A few of the families actually see ATI as to liberal for them, are you getting the picture. I was actually excited the first year that this family went to the ATI conference and came back with their first set of Wisdom Booklets. They shared them with us as we are both long time homeschool families. But as I started reading through and preparing to teach my children, I found some things that disturbed me and gave them back. Around the same time, my husband and I attended this home church. It seemed so perfect with all of the bright eyed, well behaved children and the friendliest people I have ever met. My husband is the one who had the red flags blarring, so he told me to take a couple of weeks and really look at Gothard’s teachings, which are taught in the church through video and other means. What great wisdom on his part, I found more than enough to warrant my own red flags, but we still really admired two of the families inparticular. We had seem them occasionally over the next few years at some social events and even helped with political campaigns. Here is where things get interesting. These ATI families hold high state offices and have run for high federal offices, also. These are not sit in the corner type people. They are seperatists though. A few years ago, unknown to my best friend, now out of ATI but still paricipating in the home church, the men of the church were meeting after church to discuss my friends teenage daughters apparel. They felt like their blouses were to tight and they should bind their chest up more, go figure. At the same time the son of one of these political men was touching one of my friends teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. This was found out and apologies were made although the boy was tempted by the girls tight blouses(lol). The boy was sent to one of the training centers to be punished??? My friends did not return to the home church for quite sometime after this. At this same time, the boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the the group, both were 14 at the time. The betrothal was broken by the boys actions. Then about a year later, my friend decided to go back to the home church and see everyone again. She was appalled at what went on at that particular meeting. An eight year old girl was made by her parents to stand in front of the group and confess the sin of masturbation and ask for punishment(to cleanse her) and forgiveness. My first thought was that this girl had to have been abused if she was truly masturbating, but with the power of these families, what can you do. Just this last year the family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on the Discovery Channel, at the time they had 14 children and were about to have another and the mom was receiving a mother of the year award from our governor. Since that time the same boy was betrothed again to the same girl. He was working very hard on a campaingn for U.S. Senate for the girls father. The father lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for “sin in the campâ€, as that could be the only explanation for the loss. He found that the young man betrothed to his daughter, had committed sexual sins(?) while on the campaign trail. The young man, now 16, was made to stand in fornt of the church and confess his sin. He was then told that the campaign was lost due to his sin. The weight of the world on this poor boys shoulders. I do not know what punishment the church gave but I do know that it was harsh enough for his mother to seek advise outside of the “groupâ€, but she did eventually give in to her husband and the group. The young man and young girls betrothal is now broken. I am I nuts to see this as abuse? And what do you think can be done? I think if DHS were called they would go and see a happy family who call the governor friend not just aquaintance. I know this post is long, but I tried to include the really important stuff as there is so much more that can be told.

Direct link (you have to scroll down to April):

http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discu ... post=95753

I bolded the bits that were particularly relevant, since it's a bit rambly.

So you can see, the "young man" in the story would be the son of the Discovery family (Duggars), and the politician running who goes on about "sin in the camp" would be the girl's father. Since the Holts are a family that were featured early on in the Duggar specials, and Jim Holt seems to be running for office frequently, it makes them a likely candidate, and would mean that Josh was betrothed to a Holt daughter (twice), if this rumor is to be believed. The poster is a bit rambly, however, and it's not even first-hand knowledge supposedly, it's what their friend told them, so it's easy to see how people might attribute the sin in the camp line (if it ever happened) to the OTHER fundie politician, Jim Bob.

[ladypuglover]

There is only one way to get to the bottom of this: Have someone head over to DWOP and ask Cyn. She knows everything there is to know about the Duggers and can provide citations. However, be aware whatever she does know she will spin to prove that the Duggars are THE BEST FAMILY EVER!!11!!

O/T I just LOVE your Nellie pic :D I always loved her when I was a kid and thought she was just so cool on the show.

[twin2]

O/T I just LOVE your Nellie pic :D I always loved her when I was a kid and thought she was just so cool on the show.

Thanks. It took a long time for me to think of an avatar. I was encouraged by Jessica. She told me I had a "bad attitude" so I chose someone with a bad attitude and who has a badder attitude than Nellie? That and I love Little House. In fact, I'm watching it now!

To give credit to the maker, I got it from this site

avfansavatars.avonleavignettes.com/lhotpavatars.html

[Guest Anonymous]

As a former political reporter at the Arkansas state capital, this is the story as I know it:

Josh and the oldest Holt daughter were courting, and something "inappropriate" happened. From what I have heard, it was likely something only the inane fundies would think inappropriate, like holding hands or being alone together in the same room. Either way, it got spun into "Josh touched some girl inappropriately."

This all happened about the same time JimBoob last ran for congress, and lost. Badly. The loss was blamed on God's punishment for Josh's actions, and Josh was sent off to some sort of ATI reform program.

it just HAD to be Josh, right? I mean, Jim Bob couldn't POSSIBLY have lost because he failed to round up enough voters with minimal cerebral function to put him in office.

[keeperrox]

PBrooke, that you so much for compiling all that. I had read bits and pieces throughout the years, but never both comments together.

[O Latin]

Sort of off topic, but even if anything "Alice" says is true, I can't figure out why it would be a bad thing to have children who have never been inside a grocery store. Kind of weird, maybe, but not wrong.

[moreorlessnu]

I don't remember that part of the special. I do remember Michelle and JB telling Josh and Anna that they could kiss once they were married--and then proceeded to be all kissy faced in front of them.

That's exactly the scene where they either discussed this, or there was a talking head discussing this right before the "You guys can't kiss, so we'll kiss for you" (stupid!) scene. I think first they had Josh do a talking head, "So, we asked my parents..." and then cut to a talking head of Michelle saying, "We said, yes, you guys can hold hands", or something like that.

[keeperrox]

Sort of off topic, but even if anything "Alice" says is true, I can't figure out why it would be a bad thing to have children who have never been inside a grocery store. Kind of weird, maybe, but not wrong.

I could be wrong, but it might be to show how much of a hypocrite Michelle is. I remember in one of the early specials they were shown taking the whole family to Aldi to do their weekly(?) shopping and wow, look how well behaved all the children are. :roll: The Duggars are SUCH great parents. However, if what "Alice" said is true, the family shopping trips were just for show.

[Feberin]

I've seen that Alice stuff before and there is no way it's true. Josh never was kicked out of the Duggar household and I think Oprah would have made sure that happened if she found out he'd been molesting his sisters. I don't see her just not airing the show and allowing everything to pretty much remain the same. Especially now that he's a grown adult with a young daughter. I see Oprah waging a war to get justice for them. I bet Alice doesn't even know the family and just created some sensational story for fun.

[deelaem]

Where there is smoke there is at least some fire. Alice does sound like someone with an axe to grind with JB's mother. But the things said about Michelle just give more credence to what we've all been saying here - that she just phones the parenting in through her daughters and "helpers".

ETA: I think multi-generational SOTDRT is evident in the comments. Some of those sentences were almost unreadable.

[Crackedeggs]

I would think everything we see would have to be staged. However, I also think that they have raised the youngins differently from the older kids, because they can't get caught whipping the life and soul outta them on camera.. hence, the young ones aren't so well behaved.

[PBrooke]

Yeah, I don't believe the molestation accusation either. For one thing, it just doesn't mesh, character-wise, with anything we know about any of the girls, or how they treat their brother (which is, they mostly laugh at him). I think the only reason that rumor got as much steam as it did is that it seems to contain some other "true" behind-the-scenes bits, like TLC helping to finish the house, getting a piano (though they got a grand, not a baby grand), etc. (Not sure what specials had aired, though, at the time of Alice's posting). Sounds to me like someone might have heard some gossip (piano, etc) and added it to lies to make it seem more likely.

EDIT: And referring to Michelle and her laziness - well, it doesn't take a genius to see the obvious implications from the "buddy system." You could probably guess that MIchelle doesn't do any housework from the first few specials. Almost anyone could make that assumption.

[O Latin]

I could be wrong, but it might be to show how much of a hypocrite Michelle is. I remember in one of the early specials they were shown taking the whole family to Aldi to do their weekly(?) shopping and wow, look how well behaved all the children are. :roll: The Duggars are SUCH great parents. However, if what "Alice" said is true, the family shopping trips were just for show.

Yeah, I figured that was the point she was trying to make, just the way she phrased it made it sound like not taking your kids to the grocery store was some sort of horrible deprivation.

I heard that the Duggars' appearance on Oprah never aired because she offered the older girls college scholarships and they turned them down.