VF's "great" commission to noble savages

[rachelsmith1989]

So I was browsing Vision Forum's website, what with their SAICFF nominees being announced and all, and I came across something disturbingly interesting:

http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/d ... 2/01/9874/

Now, I really shouldn't be surprised at Doug's way of thinking, but as an anthropology major who has recently studied the evolution of anth theory, I have a few of problems with this.

Anthropologists such as Justin attribute to these tribes the status of noble savage: the idea that, in their primitive state, they represent the true nature of man, stripped bare of the influence of centuries of oppressive Western social conventions dominated by Christianity. Yet this misses the mark. Even as caging and exploiting tribal people for exhibition is wrong (as was famously done in 1904 at the Bronx Zoo to a Congolese pygmy named Ota Benga), so too is elevating their backwards pagan culture as superior to more developed civilizations that owe their advancements to Christian ideals.

Doug seems not to understand why anthropologists want to preserve primitive culture and that is that we only want cultures to advance at the will of the body of people's willingness to change. No force, no missionaries, no loss of languages. Anthropologists don't adhere to the ideal of the "noble savage" anymore. One of the earliest anthropologists, named Henry Morgan, classified "lower" levels of groups of people into such categories as "barbarians" and "savages" simply because their cultural foundations weren't the same as Western Ideals. That idea died with Franz Boas near 100 years ago when the famous anthropologist tried to expose just how much racism was displayed in selecting immigrants that were coming to the United States.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/0 ... t_pierpont

A true restoration of dignity for these tribes can only be achieved by affirming the Creation order: that all men are created in the image of God and are to take dominion of the earth and conform their lives to His precepts. Christianity does not exploit any people groups as “less than human,†but neither does Christianity speak of tribal groups as they would an endangered animal species to be preserved and revered in their primitive, godless state. Christians are commanded to minister to pagan tribes as part of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), calling them out of the darkness of paganism to glorify God, to observe all His commandments, and to enjoy the benefits the Gospel brings.

Here's Doug's real intent, which is to turn the "primitive" culture around by conversion, which is probably the worst thing ever in the eyes on the anthropologist. Doesn't dougie realize that people such as the Jarawa need to left alone to live their own lives as they please? When we try to change peoples (particularly their cultural views and languages) we lose valuable knowledge that the world would go on without. Maybe people like the Jarawa really do have the cure for cancer, but christians like dougie are too focused on pressing their anti-women values on the rest of the world and converting natives, that they're too busy noticing. Here's a more famous example of such an incident:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Auca

As a christian, I knew nothing of oil companies wanting to take over Huaorani land, only that the guys who tried to convert the Indians were martyrs for christ. I was really shocked when I was shown a film exposing the true motives in an anthropology class.

Both “human zoos†and the myth of the “noble savage†must be rejected for the transforming power of the Gospel. Only then will the Jarawa tribe and other pagan peoples find hope.

It seems like Dougie wants to follow in their footsteps. Disturbing.

Any opinions?

[finleeport]

Doug is definitely so racist, that's my opinion.

And he's Ethnocentric.

[FuManchu]

His latest blog post is all about a boy they saved from the Haitian earthquake and got adopted by a family in the US. I have mixed feelings about it - on the one hand, they did indisputably take a disabled orphan out of a desperate situation and put him in a place where he's safe and well looked-after. On the other:

(a) It's hard to shake the feeling that their trip to Haiti was almost an 'orphan-collecting' expedition;

(b) There is no mention of the boy's parents and there's a sense that they feel it's actually a blessing that the boy's parents are no longer alive so he could be rescued from them;

© They carefully selected a boy who toed the fundy line and it looks suspiciously as if they wouldn't have a saved a disabled child who didn't say the right things about Jesus;

(d) They have placed him with a family of quiverfull homeschoolers who will ensure that he gets no other viewpoint for the rest of his life; and

(e) If he subsequently decided that fundamentalism isn't for him he will have literally nobody in the US who he can trust or turn to: all his social contacts will be through his new fundy family.

[Brainsample]

First, please do not judge all Christians by the example of Doug Phillips! I love missionary work and love going to other cultures to share my faith and have done so on many occasions. But I don't believe in conversion by force or proselytizing through blackmail or through denigrating or obliterating pre-existing culture. Frankly, when people retain knowledge of their culture and former belief system after conversion, it can be used as a way to articulate principles of the Christian faith. And people can take it or leave it. I see it like having a bag of limitless Hershey kisses, and I like them so much, I'm happy to share them with anyone who wants to try them. I'm at peace with people who don't want bothered.

But here's something about Dougie. He's not really a Christian, IMO, and follows some kind of something that is more like old Judaism and the Roman Paterfamilas mixed into one. He doesn't adhere to the Second Greatest Commandment of the two, to love and respect his neighbor. He hates his neighbor.

As much as he hates the "noble savages," he hates other Christians who do not live up to his expectations. As much as he wants to obliterate other cultures, he wants to obliterate all other versions of Christianity until there's not much else left but his fringe group. Though to be honest, I don't think he'd like that much, because then he would see himself as an unique elitist like he does now. He runs a small group of people on the fringe, but he tells himself that they are the rare and few chosen who will enter by the narrow gate. He'll become a small grain of sand on a limitless beach, just like everybody else. His system is built around proving that he's more special to God than everybody else.

He wants to call other Christians into his version of things because he cannot tolerate unity in diversity, only understanding things in terms of uniformity. He's probably got more animosity toward people like me because I should know better and I have knowledge "about" his faith, but mine is flawed and evil. At least the heathen savage is ignorant. He thinks that people like me are without excuse.

[finleeport]

But here's something about Dougie. He's not really a Christian, IMO, and follows some kind of something that is more like old Judaism and the Roman Paterfamilas mixed into one.

Not to mention that he does have a whole Virgin-Whore complex

[rachelsmith1989]

First, please do not judge all Christians by the example of Doug Phillips! I love missionary work and love going to other cultures to share my faith and have done so on many occasions. But I don't believe in conversion by force or proselytizing through blackmail or through denigrating or obliterating pre-existing culture. Frankly, when people retain knowledge of their culture and former belief system after conversion, it can be used as a way to articulate principles of the Christian faith. And people can take it or leave it. I see it like having a bag of limitless Hershey kisses, and I like them so much, I'm happy to share them with anyone who wants to try them. I'm at peace with people who don't want bothered.

But here's something about Dougie. He's not really a Christian, IMO, and follows some kind of something that is more like old Judaism and the Roman Paterfamilas mixed into one. He doesn't adhere to the Second Greatest Commandment of the two, to love and respect his neighbor. He hates his neighbor.

As much as he hates the "noble savages," he hates other Christians who do not live up to his expectations. As much as he wants to obliterate other cultures, he wants to obliterate all other versions of Christianity until there's not much else left but his fringe group. Though to be honest, I don't think he'd like that much, because then he would see himself as an unique elitist like he does now. He runs a small group of people on the fringe, but he tells himself that they are the rare and few chosen who will enter by the narrow gate. He'll become a small grain of sand on a limitless beach, just like everybody else. His system is built around proving that he's more special to God than everybody else.

He wants to call other Christians into his version of things because he cannot tolerate unity in diversity, only understanding things in terms of uniformity. He's probably got more animosity toward people like me because I should know better and I have knowledge "about" his faith, but mine is flawed and evil. At least the heathen savage is ignorant. He thinks that people like me are without excuse.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Doug isn't a christian but a Calvinist whose bent on pointing to anyone who moves and condemning them to hell. Don't get me started on what he said about Christopher Hitchens when he passed on. Barely knew what Hitchens said and preceded to tear him to pieces anyway.

http://www.visionforumministries.org/is ... spond.aspx

I'm not attacking missionary work. I think more people need to go out whenever they can and provide charity and possibly share the christian message. In my personal opinion, I think all roads lead to heaven and heaven is what you make of yourself here on earth a la Joseph Campbell's findings of modern myth and lore. Behavior is what sets apart those who truly care about people or not. I respect those more who like to offer Hershey's kisses versus those who want to shove them down my throat.

I'm mostly disturbed about how he talks about primitive culture as if he's Margaret Mead himself. On top of this, he shows the most blatant disregard for other people's way of life by so passionately wanting to convert everyone to his version of christianity, otherwise, these people don't deserve to walk on the ground they do or breathe the air he's breathing. Have you seen his clips about his so-called "Journey into the Amazon"? Reminds me so much of "Aguirre the Wrath of God" but with much more ignorant zeal.

http://vimeo.com/19974463

[Boogalou]

First, please do not judge all Christians by the example of Doug Phillips! I love missionary work and love going to other cultures to share my faith and have done so on many occasions. But I don't believe in conversion by force or proselytizing through blackmail or through denigrating or obliterating pre-existing culture. Frankly, when people retain knowledge of their culture and former belief system after conversion, it can be used as a way to articulate principles of the Christian faith. And people can take it or leave it. I see it like having a bag of limitless Hershey kisses, and I like them so much, I'm happy to share them with anyone who wants to try them. I'm at peace with people who don't want bothered.

But here's something about Dougie. He's not really a Christian, IMO, and follows some kind of something that is more like old Judaism and the Roman Paterfamilas mixed into one. He doesn't adhere to the Second Greatest Commandment of the two, to love and respect his neighbor. He hates his neighbor.

As much as he hates the "noble savages," he hates other Christians who do not live up to his expectations. As much as he wants to obliterate other cultures, he wants to obliterate all other versions of Christianity until there's not much else left but his fringe group. Though to be honest, I don't think he'd like that much, because then he would see himself as an unique elitist like he does now. He runs a small group of people on the fringe, but he tells himself that they are the rare and few chosen who will enter by the narrow gate. He'll become a small grain of sand on a limitless beach, just like everybody else. His system is built around proving that he's more special to God than everybody else.

He wants to call other Christians into his version of things because he cannot tolerate unity in diversity, only understanding things in terms of uniformity. He's probably got more animosity toward people like me because I should know better and I have knowledge "about" his faith, but mine is flawed and evil. At least the heathen savage is ignorant. He thinks that people like me are without excuse.

How is Doug not a Christian? He says he is, doesn't he? I don't think it is up to other people to define who is a True Christian and who is not.

And before I start ranting and raving (which I am very close to doing) what exactly do you mean by missionary work? Do you mean going to places where you are expressly welcome and invited and helping people meet the needs that they define as having and wanting help with? Or do you mean going to places and helping out while also proselytizing and hoping (at least somewhat) that people will convert? I have a guess at what you mean here, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

[kamcho_papio]

Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes is a great account of a missionary's perspective on working in the Amazon. It got a lot of press a few years ago but basically, an idealistic young Moody-educated family moves to Brazil, the parents continue to study and become published academic linguists and then one of them loses his faith and becomes an atheist. It's part memoir, part psychological anthropology, part ethnolinguistics. One of the best books I've read in the last few years.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007 ... _colapinto

In the book, Everett doesn't dwell too much on the moral issue of being a missionary, but instead recognizes why some cultures would be less likely to convert.

[Anxious Girl]

This makes me rage inside. "Noble savages?" Are we living in the 19th century still?

[Clementine]

This makes me rage inside. "Noble savages?" Are we living in the 19th century still?

Yes. Here's one of Doug's manly friends, Matthew Chancey. In plantation owner attire with two "noble savages":

[celestial]

God these people make me sick.

[Brainsample]

How is Doug not a Christian? He says he is, doesn't he? I don't think it is up to other people to define who is a True Christian and who is not.

And before I start ranting and raving (which I am very close to doing) what exactly do you mean by missionary work? Do you mean going to places where you are expressly welcome and invited and helping people meet the needs that they define as having and wanting help with? Or do you mean going to places and helping out while also proselytizing and hoping (at least somewhat) that people will convert? I have a guess at what you mean here, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Doug does not preach a Christian message. He preaches a type of salvation by works and salvation that is maintained by works. If you peel back the sugar coating, at the core, he's teaching a warped perversion of Covenant Theology but believes that Christians get plugged back into the Old Testament law by becoming the new physical seed of Abraham. Jesus is a catalyst that gets people plugged back into the Old Covenant. If that's what he truly believes, that is not Christian theology. It's something else.

I've paid my own money, out of pocket, to go to different countries to work in medical clinics that we set up in churches to offer free medical, dental, eye care, eye glasses, and medicine to people for free. I went to Russia in the dead of winter to take food and gifts to orphans and needy children. On one trip, I went to lead music, taking along a portable keyboard which I left there in the country with the church there. Churches invite people to come to their country to help them. In most of the places I've gone, I could not speak the language. I went to minster to sick people. I taught people who had never used a toothbrush how to brush their teeth. I spent two weeks helping a dentist mix composite for fillings and disinfected the tools in a church with no running water and a hole in the floor for a toilet in South America. I also lifted rotten tooth roots out of people's mouths. If that's some terrible crime...

[Boogalou]

Doug does not preach a Christian message. He preaches a type of salvation by works and salvation that is maintained by works. If you peel back the sugar coating, at the core, he's teaching a warped perversion of Covenant Theology but believes that Christians get plugged back into the Old Testament law by becoming the new physical seed of Abraham. Jesus is a catalyst that gets people plugged back into the Old Covenant. If that's what he truly believes, that is not Christian theology. It's something else.

I've paid my own money, out of pocket, to go to different countries to work in medical clinics that we set up in churches to offer free medical, dental, eye care, eye glasses, and medicine to people for free. I went to Russia in the dead of winter to take food and gifts to orphans and needy children. On one trip, I went to lead music, taking along a portable keyboard which I left there in the country with the church there. Churches invite people to come to their country to help them. In most of the places I've gone, I could not speak the language. I went to minster to sick people. I taught people who had never used a toothbrush how to brush their teeth. I spent two weeks helping a dentist mix composite for fillings and disinfected the tools in a church with no running water and a hole in the floor for a toilet in South America. I also lifted rotten tooth roots out of people's mouths. If that's some terrible crime...

I think my understanding of the word "mission" is very different from how you are using it, sorry. I spent all day (practically) learning about early missionaries and the Christianization of various cultures and my mind made the mental leap. It's really sad (to me) to learn about various cultures and how Christianity and the West (either intentionally or unintentionally) have changed them so dramatically in such a short period of time and (very often) for the worse. I don't think all influences are always for the worst but too often they are. I think it is a very different to go into a place that is already Christian and helping people who need help/going somewhere not Christian and helping people without trying to convert vs. going to a place that practices indigenous/non-Christian beliefs and trying to convert people. I think the former is great, I think the latter is terrible. I apologize for the misunderstanding, which is why I asked what you meant.

I still think though that if someone calls themselves Christian then they are, regardless of what they believe. I don't think it's up to other people to define others' beliefs and identities because you get into True Christian territory. I might carry this farther than some. I think that the PP and Zsu are Christian because that's what they call themselves, regardless of my perceptions on what Christians should believe or how they should act. JMO.

[DCmilly]

While I don't doubt your good intentions or the good works that you do, I think that the hostility to the work that you do or even the term "missionary work" is due to your fellow missionaries and their sense of cultural and religious superiority and condescension toward the people in that foreign country. You may be the exception to the rule who chooses to try to influence people through kindness and good example, but frankly that is not how the majority of missionaries work. The more people like Dougie there are in the missionary field that harder it is for people like you who actually want to do good works in a foreign country.

My experience in saying this comes as a non white, non christian person. Whenever I visit my grandparents in my home country I see missionaries who lack proper language skills, have no understanding of the local culture and who rely on stereotypes to interact with the local people. I also find it interesting that many of these foreign missionaries even seem to condescend toward local christian communities and their customs. I think that if missionaries want less hostility to their cause, they really need to do some soul searching and think about their methods, attitudes and prejudices rather than looking outside the christian community and wondering why others are not receptive to their willingness to travel abroad and do good works.

[jenny_islander]

The thing that bugs me about a lot of these missionaries is, they're going on missions to Christian countries! They're going on missions to convert other Christians to their denomination. They call this "sheep rustling" in my church.

Come to a community that needs more manpower and material than it can muster on its own, help with a project, praise God, and leave, sure. But for crying out LOUD will you quit it with the telling everybody else that they aren't Christian already?

[Brainsample]

While I don't doubt your good intentions or the good works that you do, I think that the hostility to the work that you do or even the term "missionary work" is due to your fellow missionaries and their sense of cultural and religious superiority and condescension toward the people in that foreign country. You may be the exception to the rule who chooses to try to influence people through kindness and good example, but frankly that is not how the majority of missionaries work. The more people like Dougie there are in the missionary field that harder it is for people like you who actually want to do good works in a foreign country.

My experience in saying this comes as a non white, non christian person. Whenever I visit my grandparents in my home country I see missionaries who lack proper language skills, have no understanding of the local culture and who rely on stereotypes to interact with the local people. I also find it interesting that many of these foreign missionaries even seem to condescend toward local christian communities and their customs. I think that if missionaries want less hostility to their cause, they really need to do some soul searching and think about their methods, attitudes and prejudices rather than looking outside the christian community and wondering why others are not receptive to their willingness to travel abroad and do good works.

I never had anything to do with any kind of missions like this. Anywhere I went, I adapted to the culture as did the missionaries there. When I worked in Ecuador, the missionary there who had been there for twenty years told me that he would drink urine if that's what it took to become qualified to minister to the people whom he loved. I've gone on trips after hurricanes and to respond to outbreaks of dysentery. In Bolivia, friends of mine went to work with the Guarani, but it turned out that the needs were greater in the city outside of the prisons where "prison families" lived. (Incarcerated men had families that would come and camp out, living around the prison walls -- something that reminded me of a Dickens novel describing debtor's prison.) They cared for the practical needs of the prison and taught everyone how to read and write, particularly children.

I thought I would eventually become a full time missionary to Zaire at one point, and there was no Westernization that went on there at all. Efforts there were focused on medical care and education, and they lived like the people there, complete with Army Ants which my friends spoke of fondly, because they were like the cleanup crew. They had no resources to Westernize anyone. I never had anything to do with anyone condescending, though on one trip in the Caribbean, I didn't think much of that local missionary, but my work was 100% with the church and the pastor of that church (a woman). I can imagine that that missionary typifies some of what you talk about concerning incompetence, but in my experience, that man represented less than 5% of those people I worked with. On half of the trips, I stayed with church members in their homes. I adapted to them and their culture. We did whatever the local church and local pastors needed.

[Brainsample]

That's another thing -- that missionary who worked with the Guarani... When he worked with that tribe, they were so grateful to him that they shared with him one of their most precious sources of protein -- maggots. And he ate them when they were offered to him. (He thought it was rice at first, but the rice was alive.) I don't think that if he were trying to Westernize or was condescending that he would have ever eaten maggots. I was taught and had modeled for me a model of service and gentle love for people in dire need. I would even pray telling God that I would eat maggots if that is what He required of me. (I was young then, and I think from time to time that it would be nice if God didn't require me make good on that promise.) ;)

[Renting with Raggles]

Brainsample, not to quibble, but wouldn't what you do (and those you admire) be more properly termed 'charity' work than 'missionary' work? I mean, if a secular organisation could accomplish the same task, and there's no preaching involved, I could see why others are confused.

It seems to me that a primary objective of a mission is to spread religion. You appear to define it as a calling/ command from a god to perform charitable actions overseas. Several non-religious and religious people of my acquaintance have worked for Médecins Sans Frontières: wouldn't their motivation to help others without proselytising count as missionary work?

[finleeport]

Does Doug desperately want to relieve the 19th century? Is he that delusional?

You know I could almost picture him in a white hunter outfit.

[debrand]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Auca

As a christian, I know nothing of oil companies wanting to take over Huaorani land, only that the guys who tried to convert the Indians were martyrs for christ. I was really shocked when I was shown a film exposing the true motives in an anthropology class.

[?

What was the name of the film?

[DCmilly]

Brainsample, not to quibble, but wouldn't what you do (and those you admire) be more properly termed 'charity' work than 'missionary' work? I mean, if a secular organisation could accomplish the same task, and there's no preaching involved, I could see why others are confused.

I agree. When brainsample said that she did missionary work, I read it as being works combined with preaching. Thus, when she talked about teaching children near a prison I would assume that meant handing out bibles and discussing Jesus with those families along with math and language classes. If there was no religious component, then wouldn't it simply be charitable/philanthropic work?

A good friend of mine was a Mormon missionary in Asia. A component of his mission was building homes and schools and working with local children. However, much of his time was spent meeting with local families and speaking to them about Mormonism and encouraging prayer and bible study. Both the speaking with local people and the good works were part of the overall goal of converting people to Christianity/LDS. Thats not to say that conversion was the only factor in doing those good works. I don't doubt that if not even a single person converted he would still be extremely satisfied and proud of those good works. However, in missionary work, as opposed to charitable work, religion and "spreading the word" to those foreigners is a significant factor in the trip and the good works being done.

[Boogalou]

Brainsample, could you clear up exactly what you mean by missionary work? Was it strictly charitable or was there some component of sharing religion or converting people?

Back to the OP, Dougie is a terrible anthropologist. He should not be saying savage, man (meaning humanity), calling other people's culture backward, saying people need to convert to Christianity, calling people godless (when they are not) and saying non-Christians need to find hope. What an idiot.

[rachelsmith1989]

What was the name of the film?

I'm pretty sure it was "Trinkets and Beads": (scroll down to "Film")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Saint

I think they also have some videos on youtube about the subject too

[CanadianHippie]

I'm pretty sure it was "Trinkets and Beads": (scroll down to "Film")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Saint

I think they also have some videos on youtube about the subject too

The film about it I always remember is End of the Spear... Mostly because the religious right made a big stink because one of the Evangelicals was portrayed by an openly gay actor.

[kamcho_papio]

Black Robe is an interesting 17th century perspective on basically the same thing, except with Catholics in Canada, and not evangelicals in the Amazon.