Religion makes people do strange things

[teddybear]

http://www.kmbc.com/news/10787105/detail.html

As part of the faith, Horner and his family don't believe in medical intervention. So when it was time for his wife to give birth to her first child, it was done at home without a doctor, a nurse or a midwife.

Moore said her friend went into labor in late November.

"Misty had contractions from Saturday all the way through to Friday," Moore said. "A whole week."

At the end of that week, on Friday, Dec. 1, the baby came out breach and was hanging out backward, caught at the neck, Moore said.

"(Caleb) didn't know what the heck he's doing -- he has no medical training, he's not a doctor, he doesn't know what he's doing. He takes the scissors and cuts her and performs an episiotomy. The baby finally comes out, and the baby's dead," Moore said.

She described the situation as "horrific." After that, Moore said her friend became ill suffering from septic shock.

"The medical examiner told Caleb, 'Caleb I understand your beliefs. All it will take is an antibiotic and Misty will be OK,' and Caleb said no," Moore said.

A month later, Misty Horner died.

Now Caleb (the husband) has been terminated at his job as cop, for not reporting her death immediately. He is suing for religious discrimination. I hope he loses his case. I do wish he had been prosecuted for her death and the death of the baby though.

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/01/06/33 ... files.html

In June 2008, the department terminated Horner for failing to contact the medical examiner upon the first sign of death, the lawsuit says.

The lawsuit refers to Misty as Horner’s wife, but on Friday, Gail Mansfield, Misty Horner’s mother, said the two had never married. She told The Star said she would like to comment on the lawsuit, but could not because she and her husband have a wrongful death lawsuit pending against Caleb Horner. A trial in that case had been scheduled to begin Jan. 3, but has been continued.

Mansfield’s son was not so bound. Brian Pierson said he went to the Horner house to help his sister as she lay dying, but was threatened by Caleb Horner and others there who shared his religious beliefs.

“He didn’t feed her, didn’t get her a doctor and kept her family away,†Pierson said Friday. “He should have been charged. This has totally devastated our family.â€

[emmiedahl]

omg, this is horrible. So much tragedy, so much fail.

[Crackedeggs]

Charged, hell, that fucker should be hung.

[Deleted05]

Your decision to play cave-man-doctor stops when someone else's life is in jeopardy. I can't imagine him winning this case.

[Esther]

It should be fucking illegal not to 'believe in medical intervention'. I don't give two shits for your messed up beliefs. That's criminally stupid. And also just plain criminal. And it makes you a horrible, evil person. I hope this dude dies in a horrible way. Seriously.

[kpmom]

How the hell was this guy not charged with murder, manslaughter, something? Any lawyers on the board? I'd really like to know.

[fundiefan]

I just swallowed my dinner for the second time. The man should be shot. Or, better yet, left to starve to death with no water. Slow, painful, miserable, knowing all along there is a way to survive but it just ain't going to happen for him.

[ElphabaGalinda]

This is horrible. Especially when I doubt he would have died for his messed up belief. It's his fault that there's a dead woman and a dead baby. Entirely his fault and I really want him to pay somehow

[Beeks]

Ugh, this is completely disgusting. It's scary that this guy is/was a cop and his judgment is that bad.

edited because it came off wrong.

[Beeks]

How the hell was this guy not charged with murder, manslaughter, something? Any lawyers on the board? I'd really like to know.

Well, presumably the wife has free will and you are allowed to refuse medical help. If there's no proof he was holding her against her will I don't think he did anything illegal here.

[doggie]

Your decision to play cave-man-doctor stops when someone else's life is in jeopardy. I can't imagine him winning this case.

remember she agreed in the first place. she paid for her belifs with her life too nad he did not.

[ADoyle90815]

This is disgusting. It's also brainwashing at the worst, since the victim chose to avoid even a midwife.

[Witsec7]

remember she agreed in the first place. she paid for her belifs with her life too nad he did not.

One could argue that she was not able to make informed consent or request a physician while she was ravaged by infection.

[doggie]

One could argue that she was not able to make informed consent or request a physician while she was ravaged by infection.

true but to do it in the first place she was as much at fault as him. after that no he was responsible because I doubt she was in good shape. But she may had to be dragged to a doctor as she may not have gone willingly. Just like those fools here in Oregon who let their children and themselves die for the glory of god.

[Conuly]

Oh, god. It's one thing not to do medical treatment for yourself. I'm certain it's a stupid thing most of the time, but it's your life.

But I don't care how many times you shout "parental rights", you don't get to inflict your stupid on your child like that. Poor baby.

[teddybear]

I would think they could at least have gotten him for practicing medicine without a license for doing the episiotomy. And can you imagine the pain that must have inflicted? Using a pair of scissors no less!

[Witsec7]

I think that this case poses lots of contradictions for religions (like the undisclosed one in this case) promoting the sacredness of life, yet unwilling to take the steps necessary to ensure the health of a child still in the womb, a safe delivery and good postpartum care for the mother.

If we don't want the govt. in our uteruses, how do we work to ensure that wanted children are cared for while in the womb?

[Boogalou]

Mansfield’s son was not so bound. Brian Pierson said he went to the Horner house to help his sister as she lay dying, but was threatened by Caleb Horner and others there who shared his religious beliefs.

Why didn't this guy do anything? He should have been calling 911. And if he was being threatened then leave the house and make the call!

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am saddened and sickened by this story. More amazing is that this Caleb fellow likely thinks ofhimself as pro-life.

[doggie]

I am saddened and sickened by this story. More amazing is that this Caleb fellow likely thinks ofhimself as pro-life.

I am sure he does. I would hate to have to depend on him as a cop.

[Witsec7]

Calebs brother John was the local minister. John was influenced or following the teachings of John G. Lake of Spokane, the guy with the miracle healing rooms.

This is where I found out about Calebs bro and the connection to Lakes philosophy.

http://hipsubwg.blogspot.com/2007/08/ca ... orner.html

edited to add: a bit more about John Horner here:

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/fai ... und-guilty

[Deleted05]

This is horrible. Especially when I doubt he would have died for his messed up belief. It's his fault that there's a dead woman and a dead baby. Entirely his fault and I really want him to pay somehow

This makes me wonder. Have you ever heard of a faith-healing group where it was the father, or pastor, or some other male muckety-muck who died? All the ones I can think of off the top of my head involved the deaths of women and children.

[margiebargie]

This makes me wonder. Have you ever heard of a faith-healing group where it was the father, or pastor, or some other male muckety-muck who died? All the ones I can think of off the top of my head involved the deaths of women and children.

That's very true.

ETA. Did a brief google search. Found no examples of adult men who died because of faith healing quackery.

[Miss M]

So John Horner also had a child die at or shortly after birth while waiting for God to heal it! Seems his first wife, maybe only wife as I can't find proof that he married again, divorced him but then killed herself some time after the divorce.

[Witsec7]

So John Horner also had a child die at or shortly after birth while waiting for God to heal it! Seems his first wife, maybe only wife as I can't find proof that he married again, divorced him but then killed herself some time after the divorce.

I tracked Horner down to this ministry via court records.

http://alwayshelpfulmoversministries.com/home