Anderson's doing a show on abstinence and purity balls

[ADoyle90815]

I'm watching this show now, and I think it's creepy myself. It's one thing if someone chooses to become a "Bride of Christ" until they marry, but this is saying that females can't control their own vaginas, so their fathers need to be in control until they can be passed on to their husbands.

[O Latin]

I can see the creep factor in getting all dressed up like it’s a wedding/prom and your dad is your date. Would it be less creepy if these girls were pledging their virginity to both parents? If not, is there some other type of ceremony they could do that would eliminate the creepiness.

I do think that the purity balls are, at the very least, strange and over the top. But I’ve heard FJers express similar opinions about purity rings, and the whole idea of the purity movement in general. And I just…don’t get it. Maybe I will have to simply accept that I don’t see this the way many of you do and move on.

[Renting with Raggles]

Here are versions of the pledge from the first site that pooped up when I googled purity ball pledge. The others are really similar:

For Fathers

I (Daughter's Name)'s Father, choose before to God to war for my daughter's purity. I acknowledge myself as the authority and protector of my daughter's virginity, and pledge to be a man of integrity as I lead, guide, and pray over my daughter and her virginity – as the High Priest of my home.

For Virgins

I (Name) pledge my purity to my father, my future/husband and my Creator. I recognize that virginity is my most precious gift to offer to my future husband. I will not engage in sexual activity of any kind before marriage but will keep my thought and my body pure as a very special present for the one I marry.

O Latin, I'm curious as to how you think these pledges function in reality.

How do you imagine your father might engage in 'war' for your intact hymen? (I'm going to assume your father is a decent fellow and a Christian.) How might a physically violent man interpret the instruction 'to war for my daughter's purity'? How would an emotional abuser engage in battle for his daughter's virginity?

Consider what happens when the daughter of any three of these types is raped. The way I see it, type 1 (decent fellow) has no other advantage over a secular parent who didn't take the pledge and may feel even more personally guilty and ashamed after promising publicly to protect his daughter. Type 2 and 3 dads cannot take their aggression out on the rapist: they will most likely use their daughter as an object to vent their frustration.

Consider what happens when the daughter has pre-marital, heterosexual sex: type 1 father feels awful, type 2 and 3 cannot abuse the unrelated male and again vent their anger on their daughters.

How does the daughter who is 'led' make sure the father is held accountable for his end of the bargain - being a man of integrity - and what the heck does this even mean? How do you, as the virgin, keep your thoughts pure? What happens if the father suspects that his daughter has sexual thoughts?

The way I see it, there are just too many ways this contract fails decent families; plus, the system is one in which emotional incest/ abuse would flourish.

[Deleted07]

gah, why don't they bring back Chastity belts and be done with it? sheesh!

[luv2laugh]

What channel is this on? Where can I watch it guys?

[sassyNoz47]

I watched it and I am MORE disturbed about it now..just hearing about it didn't have such a odd effect but SEEING the ceremonies and pics just creepy totally. AC brought up some good points I love his style of interviewing.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think the "very special present" part pisses me off the most. It makes me so ragey I can't even articulate the specifics of how it pisses me off.

[O Latin]

For Fathers

I (Daughter's Name)'s Father, choose before to God to war for my daughter's purity. I acknowledge myself as the authority and protector of my daughter's virginity, and pledge to be a man of integrity as I lead, guide, and pray over my daughter and her virginity – as the High Priest of my home.

For Virgins

I (Name) pledge my purity to my father, my future/husband and my Creator. I recognize that virginity is my most precious gift to offer to my future husband. I will not engage in sexual activity of any kind before marriage but will keep my thought and my body pure as a very special present for the one I marry.

Well, that's definitely...weird? Off, maybe. Maybe I just have a different direction of "creepy" than the rest of you all. At any rate, yes, I think that is taking the whole thing too far.

Here are versions of the pledge from the first site that pooped up when I googled purity ball pledge. The others are really similar:

You mean do I think they actually keep girls from having sex before marriage? Well, the statistics say not. But I also have a feeling (and maybe I'm wrong) that most of these girls truly believe in the pledges at the time they make them. I don't think it's right to de-value a belief a girl has at the time just because she's likely to change her mind in the future.

I have more to say, but I have to go to my sister's birthday dinner now.

[ceg045]

What channel is this on? Where can I watch it guys?

AC's talk show is on my local ABC affiliate. You can find out when/where it airs in your area at the show's website here.

[Mama Mia]

I think there is a huuuuuuuggggeeeee jump in creepiness between something innocuous and main stream like a 'father-daughter dance' or 'mother-son' tea and these purity balls.

Some of my kids went to father daughter dances when little ( maybe put on by girl scouts ? or the school ? don't recall ) and it was cool that they got to dress up a little and do a special activity with their dad -or in one case, my oldest son took his little cousin who doesn't have a dad.

But there was no pledge, no talk about sex, none of the super icky close dances that they show in the pictures on that website. In one of them the daughter looks like she is making out with the dad ICK!!!!

[Caribou]

I can see the creep factor in getting all dressed up like it’s a wedding/prom and your dad is your date. Would it be less creepy if these girls were pledging their virginity to both parents? If not, is there some other type of ceremony they could do that would eliminate the creepiness.

I do think that the purity balls are, at the very least, strange and over the top. But I’ve heard FJers express similar opinions about purity rings, and the whole idea of the purity movement in general. And I just…don’t get it. Maybe I will have to simply accept that I don’t see this the way many of you do and move on.

OK, I'm well into the Grey Goose on this Friday night so forgive me if this is less than coherent but...

O Latin, I've raised 2 intelligent, responsible, successful, educated, worldly children into adulthood - son 25 and daughter 21. We educated and encouraged both to have healthy, mature and responsible views regarding their sexuality. We welcome both home whenever they're able to visit us and have no problem with each of them sharing their bed in our home with their (not married) partner. We see this as a natural, acceptable progression into adulthood.

Purity balls/rings and any other outward, public signs of "virginity pledges" or "purity" creep me out beyond words.

1.) They are completely sexist - don't see boys attending such functions with their moms.

2.) They are overtly incestuous - daddy is your ideal man until he "gives" you to your husband.

3.) Why and for what unfathomable reason should any woman, ever have to publicly proclaim the status of their hymen, either via a ring she wears or a ball she attends with her daddy?? If a woman wants to remain a virgin until she marries, that's fine and great if it's her choice. It's a PRIVATE decision and is of absolutely no concern of anyone else, including her parents. My husband would be beyond uncomfortable if our daughter had decided to proclaim her virginity to him and ask him to be the "protector" of her hymen. It's so gross and inappropriate I can't even think about it.

But we're just godless, atheist heathens.....

[Renting with Raggles]

You mean do I think they actually keep girls from having sex before marriage? Well, the statistics say not. But I also have a feeling (and maybe I'm wrong) that most of these girls truly believe in the pledges at the time they make them. I don't think it's right to de-value a belief a girl has at the time just because she's likely to change her mind in the future.

First, it's awesome that I wrote pooping instead of popping as I originally intended. I'm not changing that typo!

To answer your question: You mean do I think they actually keep girls from having sex before marriage? - no, that's not what I asked at all!

What I don't understand is that you seem to only see these balls as a girl pledging virginity before marriage. People here keep telling you we're cool with girls making such promises, even in a religious context.

A purity ball is in no way equivalent to a girl making a decision (however unrealistic) about her future life. These girls are entering to public pseudo-marriage contracts with their own fathers.

• *The contract explicitly gives him ownership of his daughter's purity. He is instructed to 'to war' to keep his daughter's hymen intact. How would your father make war for your hymen? How do you imagine an aggressive or abusive man might interpret this part of the purity pledge?
  
  *The contract clearly states that sexual thoughts on the girl's part are a crime. How would your father react if you broke this part of the contract? What should a father do if he suspects his daughter is guilty sexual thought?
  
  *How would a girl ensure that her father upholds his end of the bargain (to act with integrity)? Why does the pledge offer her concrete instructions (no sexual thoughts, no sexual activity) while the father can interpret his duties in many different ways?

This is a system that would work really well to enable all types of abuse. This is why everyone else thinks purity balls are creepy.

[Mama Mia]

It's creepy because a 4 year old snuggling up to daddy and saying she wants to marry him when she grows up is cute.

A 14 year old doing the same thing, in a public setting, with a contract, is not.

[Wolfie]

Somewhat off topic. A friend just posted that Anderson Cooper is sitting at a table near her at Peninsula Grill....

[xDreamerx]

Most of the arguments against purity balls that I have, have already been said. But I will add that to me it reeks of a biblical understanding of marriage where the woman's virginity was commodity that belonged to her father until she married. Literally. Money was exchanged. It's not as brute as that. It's dressed up but it's the same basic idea. The woman's worth and value is tied to her virginity.

Though I would argue that this is an idea that persists even in mainstream culture, though obviously to a lesser or less apparent degree.

Does anyone know where to find the video that the 13 yr old girl who was featured made? I know it's on YouTube but I'm not sure how I would find it.

[CanadianHippie]

Um, seriously? Your virginity is the most precious gift? I can't decide if that is more or less fucked up than a father vowing to "go to war" for his daughters vagina.

[bionicmlle]

Agreed with the creepiness.

And further... Those PureGirls on AC sure did a lot of rocking. Self-soothing, much? Seriously, they made me seasick.

[Koala]

Would it be less creepy if these girls were pledging their virginity to both parents? If not, is there some other type of ceremony they could do that would eliminate the creepiness.

In a word, no! :shock: I am curious as to why you think a young woman should pledge her virginity to her parents. It's her body, and her choice to decide what to do with it. To think that it's acceptable for her to abdicate that responsibility and control is ludicrous.

As for the "purity rings", as far as I'm concerned they just serve as a visual reminder of the control that has been relinquished.

The fact that were are discussing what would constitute a acceptable ceremony for such a thing just blows me away. So, so twisted.

I think our society places WAY, WAY, WAY too much importance on virginity.

[lilwriter85]

I can see the creep factor in getting all dressed up like it’s a wedding/prom and your dad is your date. Would it be less creepy if these girls were pledging their virginity to both parents? If not, is there some other type of ceremony they could do that would eliminate the creepiness.

I do think that the purity balls are, at the very least, strange and over the top. But I’ve heard FJers express similar opinions about purity rings, and the whole idea of the purity movement in general. And I just…don’t get it. Maybe I will have to simply accept that I don’t see this the way many of you do and move on.

There is a Baptist church in my area that does have a youth purity vow retreat. A college classmate of mine attended this church and told me about the retreat. He was an assistant youth pastor at the time and had to attend the retreat. They show the teens several videos on abstinence and the pastoral staff talks to the teens afterwards and then state the vows in front of the group.

[genericJname]

I forgot to watch it! :(

[bananacat]

I can see the creep factor in getting all dressed up like it’s a wedding/prom and your dad is your date. Would it be less creepy if these girls were pledging their virginity to both parents? If not, is there some other type of ceremony they could do that would eliminate the creepiness.

I do think that the purity balls are, at the very least, strange and over the top. But I’ve heard FJers express similar opinions about purity rings, and the whole idea of the purity movement in general. And I just…don’t get it. Maybe I will have to simply accept that I don’t see this the way many of you do and move on.

It wouldn't be less creepy to pledge virginity to both parents, because neither parents owns a daughter's body. She has to make decisions on her own terms. Aside from the problem what external motivation is rarely effective, it isn't actually wrong for women to choose to have sex before marriage if they want to. And if they choose not to, it needs to be their own choice and not because their parents forced them to pledge it. Everyone owns their own sexuality. As much as the parents want to make that decision for their daughter, it isn't their body and it isn't their choice to make.

[O Latin]

Purity balls/rings and any other outward, public signs of "virginity pledges" or "purity" creep me out beyond words.

1.) They are completely sexist - don't see boys attending such functions with their moms.

2.) They are overtly incestuous - daddy is your ideal man until he "gives" you to your husband.

3.) Why and for what unfathomable reason should any woman, ever have to publicly proclaim the status of their hymen, either via a ring she wears or a ball she attends with her daddy?? If a woman wants to remain a virgin until she marries, that's fine and great if it's her choice. It's a PRIVATE decision and is of absolutely no concern of anyone else, including her parents. My husband would be beyond uncomfortable if our daughter had decided to proclaim her virginity to him and ask him to be the "protector" of her hymen. It's so gross and inappropriate I can't even think about it.

But we're just godless, atheist heathens.....

1. True. I can't argue with that.

2. Also true, although I wonder if those participating in them perhaps aren't aware of those overtones.

3. Well, I don't know why she would want to, but if she wants to for some reason, why shouldn't she be able to? Plus, I don't think purity rings are necessarily obvious. I know lots of young women who wear nice silver rings that could be purity rings, but based on what I know about them and their lives, I assume they're not. There are lots of reasons to wear a ring, and unless you had one of those ones that says "true love waits" or something similar, a purity ring doesn't have to announce anything to the world.

Renting with Raggles, I misunderstood what you were asking, sorry. After reading them over again, yes, those vows do seem a bit creepy, and I can see how they could be used to validate abuse. My argument is that there are girls out there who honestly want a ring or a ceremony or whatever, and are not being forced into it, and I think those girls should get to have it.

In a word, no! :shock: I am curious as to why you think a young woman should pledge her virginity to her parents. It's her body, and her choice to decide what to do with it. To think that it's acceptable for her to abdicate that responsibility and control is ludicrous.

As for the "purity rings", as far as I'm concerned they just serve as a visual reminder of the control that has been relinquished.

The fact that were are discussing what would constitute a acceptable ceremony for such a thing just blows me away. So, so twisted.

I think our society places WAY, WAY, WAY too much importance on virginity.

I don't think she should, but, again what if she wants to? What if it really honestly is her choice? If it's her body, shouldn't she be able to make that choice?

Full disclosure (and I probably should have said this from the start): I was in class yesterday and we had all been told to bring an object owned by a woman (the subject of the class is women in America) so we could practice analyzing objects and hypothesizing about a society and culture based on objects. Several people brought high-heeled shoes. At one point one of the girls in my group decided to go off on a tangent about how some guys really like it if you wear high-heeled shoes and nothing else, and then proceeded to interrogate everyone else in the group about whether we'd ever been with a guy who wanted us to do that. I felt incredibly uncomfortable and awkward and because of that encounter I'm in more of a "can't it just be okay to not want to have sex" mood than usual. I realize that's not what anyone on this thread is saying, and I probably should have just kept my mouth shut.

[Wolfie]

Full disclosure (and I probably should have said this from the start): I was in class yesterday and we had all been told to bring an object owned by a woman (the subject of the class is women in America) so we could practice analyzing objects and hypothesizing about a society and culture based on objects. Several people brought high-heeled shoes. At one point one of the girls in my group decided to go off on a tangent about how some guys really like it if you wear high-heeled shoes and nothing else, and then proceeded to interrogate everyone else in the group about whether we'd ever been with a guy who wanted us to do that. I felt incredibly uncomfortable and awkward and because of that encounter I'm in more of a "can't it just be okay to not want to have sex" mood than usual. I realize that's not what anyone on this thread is saying, and I probably should have just kept my mouth shut.

Why couldn't you have just said that it wasn't something you wanted to discuss? It is a private thing, and as you are all college students, she needs to learn boundaries. If she had started that conversation up at a job she could have gotten in big trouble for harassment.

And it is the whole privateness of the matter that makes the balls and vows and anything else that makes a big, public deal out of it creepy.

[JesusFightClub]

O Latin, you kind of summed it up there. You were unsettled and annoyed when your classmate forced the question of "who here has had sex?". Isn't that exactly what happens to the girls who go through the whole purity fandango? Their sex lives, or lack thereof, become front and centre of their relationship with their parents (much worse for them than an irritating classmate was for you).

There's also a huge question about the validity of making these promises to anyone but yourself. If you expect your parents to hold you accountable to your purity vow, as Renting has asked, what does that look like in reality? What does Daddy do or say if he suspects the vow has been broken or is about to be? Normally if you promise someone something and don't keep the promise, there are negative consequences to that.

[latraviata]

Caribou:

OK, I'm well into the Grey Goose on this Friday night so forgive me if this is less than coherent but...

O Latin, I've raised 2 intelligent, responsible, successful, educated, worldly children into adulthood - son 25 and daughter 21. We educated and encouraged both to have healthy, mature and responsible views regarding their sexuality. We welcome both home whenever they're able to visit us and have no problem with each of them sharing their bed in our home with their (not married) partner. We see this as a natural, acceptable progression into adulthood.

Purity balls/rings and any other outward, public signs of "virginity pledges" or "purity" creep me out beyond words.

1.) They are completely sexist - don't see boys attending such functions with their moms.

2.) They are overtly incestuous - daddy is your ideal man until he "gives" you to your husband.

3.) Why and for what unfathomable reason should any woman, ever have to publicly proclaim the status of their hymen, either via a ring she wears or a ball she attends with her daddy?? If a woman wants to remain a virgin until she marries, that's fine and great if it's her choice. It's a PRIVATE decision and is of absolutely no concern of anyone else, including her parents. My husband would be beyond uncomfortable if our daughter had decided to proclaim her virginity to him and ask him to be the "protector" of her hymen. It's so gross and inappropriate I can't even think about it.

But we're just godless, atheist heathens.....

As a mother, behavioural scientist, atheist and 'elitist European' I agree wholeheartedly, well said!!