What would happen to economy and culture if we were all QF

[Kitty]

Definitely, living under the Sharia is terrible for women, but Fundie Life really doesn't sound any better.

Fundie Life actually sounds worse.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Food shortages/ starvation would become a problem very quickly because how many of the lesser fundies (ie Duggars) know how to grow their own food?

Do they know Cream of Something soup doesn't grow on trees??

[finleeport]

You know I wonder, instead of making it sound like all the patriarchal men will be the villains of this QF society, what if its like the Conservative women like Phyllis Schlafly, Beall and Michele are also enforcing that role on women. What if Conservative women want liberal/feminist women to be enslaved because they want exercise what little power they have.

Kinda like Serena Joy, she got what she want and although she's not happy about it, she can still bully around her handmaids. Surely it will not be all the men who would enforce this law on society, but also the women who kiss-up to them. Which would actually show their hypocrisy.

It would be like a villainous evil housewife.

[Sinister Rouge]

Has anybody else read "The Good Old Days: They Were Terrible" by Otto L. Bettmann? No birth control, no vaccines, conservative patriarchal society - I think it's pretty much where the Fundies would like us to be.

This was absolutely my favorite book as a child (well, from the age of about 9+). A bit morbid, but certainly appropriate given that my future would lie in archaeological anthropology ;)

[jenny_islander]

Yeah, if high-profile Quiverfullers got what they say they want, they would basically recreate Afghanistan under the Taliban. Very few usable roads or railroads, no dependable clean water, ditto electricity and communications, extremely high child mortality rate, extremely high rate of perinatal maternal mortality and morbidity, widespread diseases, parasites, and scarring that we hardly ever see, extremely low literacy, and bandits everywhere. Any manufactured item that needed machine tools more complicated than a small lathe would have to be imported. The money would have to come from whatever half-educated people could scratch out of the dirt and carry to the nearest export point. Foreigners would own most of the resources that needed infrastructure for exploitation because locals wouldn't be able to build the infrastructure or do the white-collar jobs involved; they would be stuck cleaning the toilets in the foreign workers' dormitories. Anybody who flashed enough cash could move in and pretty well do what he wanted, just like bin Laden.

[doggie]

They would have to drink beer or wine as the water would be undrinkable otherwise.

[lilwriter85]

The economy would be more screwed up than it is now. Certain parts of society would be suffering without women in certain occupations. Culture would be pretty bland in the areas of entertainment.

[Sola]

It would be like the middle ages, at best.

Maternal and infant death would skyrocket. Because of the huge families and low incomes what little collected in taxes would be spread too thinly to do any good. State schools, presuming that the QF folks hadn't got rid of state education, would be so overcrowded that very little learning would happen. Chances are it would be the boys that got educated anyway as they are seen as the money earners.

The rich would be fine, for a while anyway. If the rich had QF families too then within a few generations their money would run out too. Being as wealthy as the Duggars is fine when you have 20 kids, but when those 20 kids have 20 kids of their own each, that money isn't going to last.

America would no longer be the superpower it is now, neither would it be the financial powerhouse it is now (and it still is despite all the economic problems) and what influence it has on the world would be gone. Eventually you would have a situation where somewhere like China, or maybe even India - both rapidly emerging economies - would take America's place.

[Witsec7]

No medicines, no Drs or Nurses, no surgeons, no medical research, no vaccinations, no life saving surgeries, women dying in unattended child births, agebra, math and the sciences all lost to history within two generations. Books burned, radio censors, perhaps no radio or television transmission, certainly no tv.

I was pondering all of this earlier today when I posted the topic. Life under this paradigm would be much more bleaker than a Handmaids Tale.

[doggie]

fundies want it but not deep in their hearts. The truth is they think they get god brownie points for such thoughts but if they actually had to live that way the people who promoted it would be the first to move out.

[Kitty]

Someone earlier said something along the lines of "Lord of the Flies meets The Handmaid's Tale," and I have to say that I agree.

Maternal and infant deaths would skyrocket. Actually, death would skyrocket because only a few could afford any kind of health care. You'd get crunchy types who would shill their "natural cures" and what would be the QF equivalent of witch doctors giving out bullshit advice. People would die of preventable and treatable disease. Only the rich would have vaccines and health care.

Sola, I have to politely disagree with what you say about state schools and taxes being spread to thin. Any tax a QF nation would take would go first to the government/churches. That would probably be most of its tax revenue, too. There would be no state schools, because a) taxes would be far too low to support more than a handful and b) QFs wouldn't believe in public education. I imagine in that case, few families would be able to afford private school, and most would have to homeschool. Boys would definitely receive more education than girls, but we mustn't forget that it's mothers who do the homeschooling, not the fathers.

Overall, a QF country's economy would be in the shitter and would never get out. If the US were to turn fundie, the economy would implode as all the female workers plus many males left the workforce. On top of that, there are only a few acceptable careers in QF-world, and you'd have an overabundance of preachers, wood-cutters, builders, towers, car salesmen, etc. Every business would be a family business and very exclusively so. There would be few professors and teachers, leading to very few of anything else.

As for entertainment, it would be shit and have zero appeal outside the country's borders, if it had any within. Technology would be largely stagnant because of the lack of money, so just about everything would have been recorded and edited on a digital camera and/or a Mac. Indeed, musical and acting talent, as well as any other kind of talent, would suffer greatly because those skills would not be honed at the school of the dining room table. Fashion would consist of flats and frumpers from Wal-Mart or the fundie equivalent. Speaking of which, FundyMart would be just about the only business to make a decent amount of money. Television would be damn near non-existent other than news and talk shows. Just about everything sold would be of laughable quality.

Food would be very scarce, because only a handful of people would have the land and the ability to grow food. Large farms would be impossible without workers. Just about any resource would be. Infrastructure, electricity, and communications would suffer.

This doesn't sound like a third-world country, it sounds like Europe in the fucking Dark Ages.

[Kitty]

fundies want it but not deep in their hearts. The truth is they think they get god brownie points for such thoughts but if they actually had to live that way the people who promoted it would be the first to move out.

The fundie lifestyle depends on people not being fundies.

Of course, once they figured that out anyone who wasn't fundie would become a slave. Because slavery isn't against the Bible, now is it?

:(

[bananacat]

I don't think it would ever get to that point. We haven't even seen a full second generation of our current Quiverfullers. So far only one Duggar has moved on, although some of the older boys are apparently doing some odd jobs. But they live in a small town and it will get saturated pretty fast. What jobs will the younger boys do that doesn't require submitting to a boss or potentially working under a woman? They have to be entrepreneurs, but they're also supposed to do jobs that don't take a lot of time so they can spend that time with their family. Add on top of that that they have dismally bad education, and there's really not much to choose from. I suspect that most of the younger brothers will just be employees for their older brothers. How many car lots and towing companies can one town handle?

I also think that this lifestyle would lead to massive infighting within one or two generations. While Daddy is still alive, everything goes by his word. But what about when he dies? Men who have never been allowed to think an independent thought will have no authority to settle disputes. And disputes would be incredibly minor, but would seem like a much bigger deal because they're taught that everything is black or white and that nuance isn't allowed. It would start with each man having his own home church and being angry at all the other families for some minor doctrinal disagreement. For those that get into politics, like they intend to do, there would be even more conflict. It's great to have 18 kids who will grow up and then vote for you, but what if two of the kids both decide to run for office? What if Josh ran against John David? I think that once their overlord is gone, the whole thing will just dissolve. And on a larger scale, I don't see this lasting much longer after Gothard kicks the bucket.

As for education, it would start to spiral downward fast. They don't value education for women, yet they expect women to be completely in charge of educating the next generation. This means that in just one or two generations, the quality of most of the homeschooling will drop pretty low, making it even harder for the boys to get jobs and support their own families. And the QFers will notice this and come up with a solution: actual schools. Yes, they'll form their own schools, for sons only, taught by the more educated men of the movement. It will be just the same as any other religious school, but they'll come up with some excuse about why it's suddenly okay for a boy to spend several hours a day away from Mommy. Andrew Shlafly already holds "homeschool" classes. It's only a matter of time until classes like that expand to just be full-on school.

Honestly, I think that as problem came up, the QF community would solve them in the same way that we've already dealt with these problems. After several generations, we'd be pretty much the same as we are now, but maybe more religious and conservative. Each generation would forget the reasons why certain rules came into play in the first place, and they'd probably even start using birth control eventually. They really haven't thought this thing out very far beyond the basic algebra of how many minions they can spawn.

[Sweetpea1]

LOL I love how you use effeminate men, by which you mean Dougie. Because Doug definitely fits the stereotype of the Effeminate Misogynistic Guy.

Side note: I do not want Dougie or Bill Gothard anywhere near an M16 or nukes.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think it will get to that either. The QFers cannot seem to find their kids spouses or employment, which puts a short shelf-life on their plans. At best the kids will leave; at worst, they will languish on the family farm, functionally illiterate and unable to survive in normal society. Either way, there is little long-term threat. Although, they could sure make our lives uncomfortable for a while if Santorum et al get elected.

[koolmom]

Bananacat mentions Andrew Schlafly does homeschooling. Have any of the grown Schlafly kids spawned hordes of grandchildren or have they emulated Grandma and "Did what I said, NOT what I did?"

[jenny_islander]

Something else to keep in mind in this thought experiment is the teaching that anybody who has lots of money must be right with God. So if you can make lots of money without doing something blatantly Not Krikkit, you are beyond criticism. You could be a slum lord if you did your business through several layers of flunkies, so that the people pounding on doors to collect extortionate rent had no idea who you even were. You could run a mine in an isolated location so that you could control who could enter or leave, who could sell or buy and for how much, and who could do what to whom with impunity--all in the interests of maximizing your profit of course. You could use any means at your disposal to shove everyone else out of your field of business, monopolize it, and get all the profit. You could have plantations somewhere far off where nobody could see the disgusting shacks you made your employees live in or the unbelieveable prices at the only store in town, which of course you would own. And because you would by definition be the best people with the finest character, you could run the whole show! You could parade your eleven exquisitely dressed children up and down the street under the eye of ill-paid nursemaids and governesses. You could build an enormous house and make the people who actually ran it sleep in the basement. You could eat like a king and throw all of your scraps into the garbage because giving them to the beggar at the back door would be enabling the lazy poor to keep on being lazy and poor, plus you don't want those types near your house. And you could use the not-so-well-off, who adore you and want to be like you, to attack the desperately poor when they attempt to organize for justice.

Ohwait. We did this already. It was called Victorianism and the Gilded Age. You know, the cultures that the great reformers rose up against, so that we could all have justice and freedom from fear . . .

Ohwait. We're doing it again. Nevermind.

[debrand]

I really believe that homeschooling would be illegal. Oh, girls would be allowed to be educated at home. After all, girls don't need to read or write to run a home. The QF leaders could not risk that males would hear conflicting views from their parents. Boys would have to go to school so that they could be brainwashed. Atheists would probably loose custody of their children.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I really believe that homeschooling would be illegal. Oh, girls would be allowed to be educated at home. After all, girls don't need to read or write to run a home. The QF leaders could not risk that males would hear conflicting views from their parents. Boys would have to go to school so that they could be brainwashed. Atheists would probably loose custody of their children.

Don't forget Jews, Catholics and Pagans!

i think it'd be like the dark ages after a few generations- we'd forget how to read, society would crumble...

[finleeport]

Don't forget Jews, Catholics and Pagans!

i think it'd be like the dark ages after a few generations- we'd forget how to read, society would crumble...

Don't forget the Orthodox Christians as well, I'm not surprised but am offended, why is that Fundie Protestant fanatics think their version of Christianity is superior than that of Catholics, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Orthodox and Coptic Churches?

It seems to me that we in the old traditional churches (or as they like to call us Whores of Babylon) seem to have a lot of imagination and still connected to our Pre-Christian traditions (well some of us), that the hyper-fanatical Protestants seem to hate imagination so much they can barely create anything new in their lives.

[JuJuBee]

I think it would begin looking something like Saudi Arabia but then fall apart fast, mostly because of the class divide and lack of economic controls. Once the wealth is concentrated in very few hands and everyone else is living in poverty, it would probably be the poor women who would begin to give up the lifestyle and work. The high ruling fundies might outwardly voice disapproval, but, like all ignorant monarchy, would be more concerned with keeping their wealth and ignoring the lower classes. Eventually, the lower class would start to push back and the system would be a mess. It could go the direction of western revolutions and result in equality again, or it could end up like Afghanistan with tribal war and poverty. I think we're already seeing a lot of class anger in Iran, although it's been crushed so far. We could see another revolution there within our lifetime. I don't know enough about Saudi Arabia to say whether their strict system will ever be challenged.