When Your Daughter is Grown but Unmarried

[fundiefan]

Reading garbage like that just serves to make me more proud of my nieces than I already knew I was. Particularly the independent, working, 19 year old college student who is going to graduate in three years (total, not three years from now) and go to law school after that. She wants to make a difference in the world and not just exist. While she does have a boyfriend, there is no plan on either of their parts to get married and make babies. That isn't even on either of their radar.

I did the marriage thing. It didn't work, for countless reasons, but one of them is that I am not made to be married. I am not at all opposed to being involved in an intimate, committed relationship again, but it will be done with two separate houses and two separate lives. I will not live with or marry anyone again. I will live my life and if a man is part of my life, he will be just that, part of it, and on my terms.

I feel immensely sad for the girls who grow up having no clue what is actually available to them as far as life goes. It's sick and all about men stroking their own egos and attempting to control lives that are not theirs to control. All so they can feel important. Tiny, scared little men who created an entire 'culture' around taking away rights and choices of women, all because they need to feel like big men of importance and value.

[GatorGutCasserole]

Reading garbage like that just serves to make me more proud of my nieces than I already knew I was. Particularly the independent, working, 19 year old college student who is going to graduate in three years (total, not three years from now) and go to law school after that. She wants to make a difference in the world and not just exist. While she does have a boyfriend, there is no plan on either of their parts to get married and make babies. That isn't even on either of their radar.

I did the marriage thing. It didn't work, for countless reasons, but one of them is that I am not made to be married. I am not at all opposed to being involved in an intimate, committed relationship again, but it will be done with two separate houses and two separate lives. I will not live with or marry anyone again. I will live my life and if a man is part of my life, he will be just that, part of it, and on my terms.

I feel immensely sad for the girls who grow up having no clue what is actually available to them as far as life goes. It's sick and all about men stroking their own egos and attempting to control lives that are not theirs to control. All so they can feel important. Tiny, scared little men who created an entire 'culture' around taking away rights and choices of women, all because they need to feel like big men of importance and value.

You have practically... described my ast, resent and future. I love my husband now, but I dream about being single again once I turn 40. It is not his fault. I am made this way. And remain that way.

[freejoytoo]

I'm 22, I've volunteered abroad, got a degree, lived away from home, have had two paid jobs and one volunteering, yet according to this article I've 'lost my way in the world'? I don't claim to know what I'm doing all the time but I'm proud of myself yet according to this I should be ashamed..and stayed in a relationship both of us knew wasn't going to last.

It's funny, I know a fundie-lite girl. I disagree with her on basically everything but she's very true to her values. She went to school and university, spent a year abroad and lived away from home and she didn't become 'godless'. She carried on going to church every week, is very proud of her faith and just got married and 'saved' herself before the wedding, so I don't see how going away equals losing your beliefs. It probably means that they'll be challenged, but that's a good thing, IMO. I find it hilarious that according to the Duggars she would have baggage as she has kissed someone else and, whilst she didn't have premartial sex, didn't go for any side-hugging and she kissed him before the wedding, yet she is by far the 'good' girl out of my friends.

[jenny_islander]

"Acceptance and respect from the world" is code for "refuses to take on the enormous burden of contempt for simply being female that I expect her to bear for her whole life." Because God forbid any woman take to heart that Bible passage about gender being non-essential.

And, you know, it's odd--the same guy who wrote that also discussed the pros and cons of marriage and came down rather on the con side.

[kpmom]

"Acceptance and respect from the world" is code for "refuses to take on the enormous burden of contempt for simply being female that I expect her to bear for her whole life."

Perfectly said, jenny. There is such a hatred for females under all this "precious treasure" and "protection" crap, it's really disheartening.

[Deleted05]

Perfectly said, jenny. There is such a hatred for females under all this "precious treasure" and "protection" crap, it's really disheartening.

Of course, a man who gets "acceptance and respect from the world" gets it because he's such a fine upstanding Christian role model, and everyone can see the light of Christ in his life.

[dairyfreelife]

1. It is usually best (& Biblical) for the unmarried daughter to remain in the home with her parents, under her father's authority and protection while he is still living (or with her mother if he is not). Living with, or at least near, grown brothers and/or sisters may be preferable when parents die or other circumstances make living with parents unfeasible.

I love my parents, but I am glad for my independence. I am glad we are not forced together until I marry. As for sibs, I am eldest so that wouldn't work now would it if my parents were forced to care for me and something happened.

2. Working in the home is highly preferred over working outside the home. Working for individual Christian families or in a small Christian business or ministry is preferred over a secular workplace.

Yes, can't have her meeting anyone either. Good luck ever finding someone. Daddy has to do it. Can't work retail, sweetie or other "secular" job (like I have now). Wonder if the pay the girl even minimum wage-bet not.

3. Working for her father or one of her brothers is preferred over working for other men. Working for a trusted Christian friend is much preferred over working for a non-Christian or someone you do not know.

Yes, can't have her associating with someone who isn't of their specific faith can we? She might actually realize her father is controlling arse and escape the compound. Poor girls in this environment. And aren't most abuse and rape crimes commited by someone a girl knows (young boys can be victims too, I know)?

4. A work environment where her interactions are mostly with women, young children, or the elderly is preferred to those involving interactions with many young men.

Yes, can't have her working with a man as that could lead somewhere (or not as I've worked and meet and talked to many men-young and old, and oddly, I'm still single-hmm).

6. Look for work that teaches skills that might be helpful in assisting a husband with a home business, a farm or a ministry. But avoid encouraging too much emphasis on the creation and success of a home business. The goal is to prepare your daughter to be a good helpmeet for her husband in this regard, not to compete with him for the role of supporting the family.

Yes, how dare she have a career. She just needs a job and one where she learns a little of a trade, but never knows more than her future hubby. She can't earn more than him and become a leader because God says so right there in that ol' book of his.

7. She needs to feel she is making a contribution and doing something important.

And not because she wants to do it, but because it will serve her daddy and eventually her future husband. How lovely.

The whole site makes me :angry-banghead:

[smittykins]

What about widows? I lost my husband in 2005(he was 42; I was 38). Does that mean I have to move back in with my mom?

[dairyfreelife]

What about widows? I lost my husband in 2005(he was 42; I was 38). Does that mean I have to move back in with my mom?

Mr. Jackass-Who-Knows-the-Bible-Best answers the question. Yes, you do unless your husband has enough money for you to live off of.

1) What if our daughter never marries? Having no husband and family, what else is there for her to do than to join the work force in a career? Won't she need college or vocational training so she can get a better job and enjoy a higher standard of living?

2) What if our daughter becomes a widow? Wouldn't it be wise for her to have had college training in a career so she can more easily support herself?

3) What if, heaven forbid, our daughter is divorced by her husband and she is left to support herself along with some number of children?

Are these good reasons to consider a college education for your daughter? Is she really likely to need to work to support herself and will she have a hard time doing so unless she earns a college degree right after high school?

In recent years, many young ladies have not been marrying until their mid-twenties or later. Yet most of our daughters will probably marry, though some may not until their late twenties or early thirties. If a daughter remains unmarried for a long time, or even forever, I think the father should allow and encourage his daughter to continue living at home. He should continue to provide for her support, as needed. She may make some financial contribution to the family but should not need to worry about the necessities of life while her father has some means. Likewise parents of an unmarried daughter would naturally seek to provide for her in their death also. In past times it was common for the family home to be left to a unmarried daughter(s) or at least reserved for her use while living. There might be life insurance specifically payable to her upon her parents' death or arrangements made for her to live with one of her siblings when her parents were dead.

Much the same applies if she is widowed or divorced before her children are grown. If she needs a place to live and financial support, she should be welcomed by her family. Her parents should be willing to take her and her children in and share whatever they have. It may be good for her to contribute financially, such as she can, by working from home while caring for and teaching her children.

If we have done well in preparing our daughter for marriage and in guiding her through courtship, we hope that divorce is a very unlikely event. Widowhood, however, is very likely, but mostly at an older age when there is retirement income or grown children to assist. Young widows can potentially be taken in by their parents again or may remarry (as Paul suggests). Hopefully their husbands have saved or provided some life insurance to at least meet their needs for a time.

[Peas n carrots]

When I have the time I'm going back through the article and finding out how many times the word "serve" is used. Any father who agrees with this drivel thinks his daughter as chattel, not as a human being with hopes and ambitions of her own. It's just so sad to me, why would you want to think of someone you love in this way? How can you divorce yourself from recognizing your child as human being.

[NurseNell]

...but the article's author thinks I should have stayed at home, cutting old people's toenails and fingernails for free. :roll: :evil:

No, you could study to be a midwife. Never mind that to be the best, and safest midwife, you should first have a BS in nursing from an ACCREDITED college or university, and then a 2 year graduate program in midwifery. Then you'd be licensed as a nurse midwife rather the school of the dining room educated, and following an unlicensed midwife around midwife.

BTW, I'm 5Five Cats and Counting :animals-cat:

[NurseNell]

Perhaps someone who knows more about ancient culture can correct me but I thought multi-generational homes were the norm back in the time and culture of the Bible. Wouldn't it make sense for unmarried daughters (and sons) to stay at home with their parents back then, simply because they would have stayed with them even if they were married? Granted, I think the general rule of thumb is that daughters go to live with their husband's families while sons stay within their families of origin (at least that's usually the way it is in that part of the world today)

Doing my family's genealogy I have found this to be true in colonial New England.

[AnnieC 305]

On this same topic I read this post this morning.

www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/archives/2011/12 ... eater.html

From a godless (I believe) liberal on grown daughters and love and letting go.

[antifundie]

I also love how "take a class" is mentioned but COLLEGE--oh no. I mean, I've been to godless, heathen universities, and we pretty much NEVER discussed God/Religion in a concrete sense. Things like Medieval Catholicism, or ancient Roman religion, sure, but never ever anything that I would think would actually be offensive to Christians.

In fact, I've found that professors bend over backwards to avoid directly offending students--while still being able to rationally discuss certain topics.

[moreorlessnu]

What about widows? I lost my husband in 2005(he was 42; I was 38). Does that mean I have to move back in with my mom?

Does she have toenails?? Well then, there's your answer.

Attempt at humor aside, my sympathies on the loss of your husband; how terribly sad.

Are people allowed to cut other people's toenails in a professional setting without some sort of license/professional training? I've been in the foot doctor's office where disabled adults were brought in to have their toenails cut. It led me to believe that the caretakers of the disabled adults were not allowed to perform this task themselves, or they would.

I know that Mary Kay ladies have said they are not allowed to apply makeup, so I assume toenail clipping could be more dangerous in unskilled hands than application of makeup.

[LIzzieB]

This has been touched on by another poster, but, how on earth are these girls meant to meet a husband in the first place? They are homeschooled, homechurched, often poor with limited options for travelling, limited access to internet or social media, not allowed to work... how do they meet anyone outside their family circle? And then to tell them that they have no real worth without a husband, nor give them any skills to support themselves, they are just being set up to be completely dependent?

This drives me insane. I'm a very independent, well educated, well travelled 34 year old, and I know that if (heaven forbid) my partner of 10 years died or left me, I would be completely able to support myself. These poor girls just have no options.

[NurseNell]

Are people allowed to cut other people's toenails in a professional setting without some sort of license/professional training? I've been in the foot doctor's office where disabled adults were brought in to have their toenails cut. It led me to believe that the caretakers of the disabled adults were not allowed to perform this task themselves, or they would.

I know that Mary Kay ladies have said they are not allowed to apply makeup, so I assume toenail clipping could be more dangerous in unskilled hands than application of makeup.

I don't know. I do know a RN who has her own business of going to homes and cutting toenails and providing foot care to the elderly and diabetics. She has a valid state license as a RN and her business is licensed.

Now that I think about it I wasn't allowed to cut fingernails or toenails in my school nurse job, even though I'm licensed as a RN, PHN, and School Nurse. So I'd say unprofessionals shouldn't be doing it for anyone but family members. And yes, cutting toenails especially carries risks.

[Kelya]

I don't know. I do know a RN who has her own business of going to homes and cutting toenails and providing foot care to the elderly and diabetics. She has a valid state license as a RN and her business is licensed.

Now that I think about it I wasn't allowed to cut fingernails or toenails in my school nurse job, even though I'm licensed as a RN, PHN, and School Nurse. So I'd say unprofessionals shouldn't be doing it for anyone but family members. And yes, cutting toenails especially carries risks.

I worked in a nursing home, and briefly in a rehab where we had people come in to cut toenails/fingernails. (Patients would go through detox and be scratching). Either a licensed beautician or a podiatrist had to do it.

The suggestion that old SAHDs do it bothers me- its not a job for someone uneducated and untrained, plus its...well, just sort of gross and not that interesting. But of course no one suggests that they sit with elderly and record their stories, or help do home improvement projects, or something bigger and meaningful. Nope. Clip toenails, woman.

[babs]

Gee, I'm 49 and unmarried. I wonder how my parents would like me to quit my job and let them provide for me...hmm....

Oh wait, yeah, that's right. I provide for them and they live with me!

Reading that I felt like I was reading a historical romance novel and hearing about the town spinster who was dependent on the kindness of relatives for support.

[Justme]

So, let's imagine an example. If Chris Jeub had died during his heart attack last summer, what would have happened to his family? Wendy would have been left with all those kids and massive debt. (The hospital would still have to be paid, and they didn't have insurance.) Does she have parents she could move in with? Given her age, I'd think if her parents were still around, they'd be elderly, retired, and most likely living on a fixed income. She had no adult children who would be able to support her and the younger kids. The 2 oldest have run far from "oz". Does she have other "male" family member to sponge off who can support her, the kids and pay off the massive debt? Remarriage? Pretty girls like Sarah Maxwell can't even find a husband, could Wendy find someone to take on her?

[clarinetpower]

Remember who this is coming from:

A guy who married his wife when he was about 19 years old as a history major with a math minor, and immediately started popping out babies (4 in 4 years, I believe), who didn't even get in to seminary (and wouldn't try for a different one, because that was the one God wanted so obviously if he didn't get in, it was not Godly to try another). By the time they had 4 children, they were still living in a house owned by his parents rent free because he just couldn't make enough money to provide a roof over their heads, even though his parents essentially got him a job because he had no skills. Also, he was an AMAZEBALLS rising star in the insurance business, but the evil, non-Christian business wouldn't appropriately reward his unbelievable abilities and skills so he could feed, clothe and shelter his growing family and non-working wife!!!

But he's happy to lecture everyone else, because obviously HIS way is the right way because they have survived and had 6 children!

They survived because his family cared enough to not let them die. If they had done the right thing, waited to have kids, gotten degrees that actually meant getting a job, found a place to live they could afford, and chosen to have children when all these things were in place, like I did, they wouldn't have to struggle to justify everything they'd done with a collection of writings that span thousands of years and that no one can agree on, anyway.

I'm a Christian and a Liberal Democrat, and people like this just plain old piss me off.

[Daenerys]

This has been touched on by another poster, but, how on earth are these girls meant to meet a husband in the first place? They are homeschooled, homechurched, often poor with limited options for travelling, limited access to internet or social media, not allowed to work... how do they meet anyone outside their family circle? And then to tell them that they have no real worth without a husband, nor give them any skills to support themselves, they are just being set up to be completely dependent?

This drives me insane. I'm a very independent, well educated, well travelled 34 year old, and I know that if (heaven forbid) my partner of 10 years died or left me, I would be completely able to support myself. These poor girls just have no options.

This is why all the female Duggars, Botkins, Maxwells and the Seven Sisters are still unmarried, and why the movement is fundamentally flawed.

Even the Amish let their teens hang out in large mixed groups on weekends to do Bible study and play sport. They trust their teens to make their own decisions, and that's where most people meet their future spouse: everyone is free to choose their own partner at the age they feel ready. Also, there's no 'set' standard of what can/can't be done before marriage; although they don't think sex is right, some wait to even hold hands whilst others go as far as kissing and touching over clothes.

[Maul the Koala]

I was thinking of all the girls in the fundamentalist movement. I hear a lot that all parents make choices for their children and the Duggars et al. aren't any different than your normal parents. But these girls have zero choices. They have to pray to find a husband. And if/when it comes down to it, it's going to be their fathers choosing their husbands for them. These girls have barely any contact with others in order to find out what they value in relationships and friendships, what they're looking for in friends even. They're raised to stay at home or get married. These girls are around the same age I am and yeah, I'm still living at home. But I've been exposed to the working world. I know what options are out there for me and what I can do with my life. I have the freedom to date whomever I want. I have the freedom if need be to break off a relationship/engagement if I feel the need to.

If it were anyone else these parents would be called controlling and dare I say verging on some kind of emotional abuse. I don't get why fundamentalist Christian parents get a pass from a lot of people while parents who aren't fundamentalists get called out on it.

[fundiefan]

I was thinking of all the girls in the fundamentalist movement. I hear a lot that all parents make choices for their children and the Duggars et al. aren't any different than your normal parents. But these girls have zero choices. They have to pray to find a husband. And if/when it comes down to it, it's going to be their fathers choosing their husbands for them. These girls have barely any contact with others in order to find out what they value in relationships and friendships, what they're looking for in friends even. They're raised to stay at home or get married. These girls are around the same age I am and yeah, I'm still living at home. But I've been exposed to the working world. I know what options are out there for me and what I can do with my life. I have the freedom to date whomever I want. I have the freedom if need be to break off a relationship/engagement if I feel the need to.

If it were anyone else these parents would be called controlling and dare I say verging on some kind of emotional abuse. I don't get why fundamentalist Christian parents get a pass from a lot of people while parents who aren't fundamentalists get called out on it.

Religious freedom. When you hide behind your religion, you can get away with a lot of bullshit that isn't accepted otherwise.

[moreorlessnu]

I worked in a nursing home, and briefly in a rehab where we had people come in to cut toenails/fingernails. (Patients would go through detox and be scratching). Either a licensed beautician or a podiatrist had to do it.

The suggestion that old SAHDs do it bothers me- its not a job for someone uneducated and untrained, plus its...well, just sort of gross and not that interesting. But of course no one suggests that they sit with elderly and record their stories, or help do home improvement projects, or something bigger and meaningful. Nope. Clip toenails, woman.

Can you imagine the trouble they could get themselves into if one of the SAHDs actually starting doing this? If something went wrong and someone got an infection?