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formergothardite

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Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING SOUTHERN SLAVERY!

as for history books, mainly I have used the internet. My education has been pretty broad, while not very deep, I am continuing my knowledge and education of history as we speak, and it remains one of my favorite subjects. I am not widely read, though I will be someday... one work I have reads parts out of and refer to often is A History of the American People, by Paul Johnson, as well as a few other of Paul Johnson's works.

I have read "Empire" by Niall Ferguson, and cant wait to read his more recent books about historical economy.

[edit]

I certainly have not been brainwashed in my education if that is what you are trying to find out. I want to stress that I still have lots to learn about history, and have never claimed to be a historian. Quite literally my main curriculum has been throughout my childhood has been private study of the Word of God. I hope that answers your question?

Are you saying that your parents literally didn't teach you much, they just gave you a Bible to study. That is so not an education and one of the things we complain about here. I am not anti-homeschooling. I was homeschooled myself and got an great education. But my mom worked really hard at it and it involved a great deal more than just studying the Bible.

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Are you saying that your parents literally didn't teach you much, they just gave you a Bible to study. That is so not an education and one of the things we complain about here. I am not anti-homeschooling. I was homeschooled myself and got an great education. But my mom worked really hard at it and it involved a great deal more than just studying the Bible.

And Josiah, the internet is not the best source--a few quick keystrokes, and anything can and will be modified. At least if something's in print and published by a publishing house, you can go back to it. The internet changes constantly. Make sure that your sources are respected, please.

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Are you saying that your parents literally didn't teach you much, they just gave you a Bible to study. That is so not an education and one of the things we complain about here. I am not anti-homeschooling. I was homeschooled myself and got an great education. But my mom worked really hard at it and it involved a great deal more than just studying the Bible.

I grew up in and out of the hospital. I can read doctors penmanship, read medical charts and know all the medical short hand but that doesn't make me a doctor. Reading only the bible doesn't make you God or a minister or even a Christian.

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So, being kidnapped or born into slavery is the same as me signing a business contract? Yeah, not really. Taking advantage of someone's weakness to bind their labor and their bodies and their wills to me in perpetuity is not "loving". This is Orwellian doublespeak.

The concept of inalienable human rights. Either you believe in it or you don't. Do you?

So if your brand of Christianity succeeds in winning the hearts and minds of the majority, you would impose your religious laws on people who do not believe in your religion? What is the place of Quakers, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists in your government? Will religious minorities have freedom?

For instance, would you stone the rabbi of the Reform Jewish congregation in my town in the public square, and her wife, if they stuck to their beliefs and their love for each other? I hope, if your outfit ever comes to power, that I would have the courage to wear the pink triangle in solidarity.

And how do you determine who is alive in Jesus, and has the Holy Spirit? Once the path to power is to belong to a certain church and profess certain beliefs, you can bet power-hungry people will swarm to it. This is not any different than the CS Lewis version of theocracy. Once you believe your group has the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that you are justified in imposing it on other people by force (stoning), you have become a theocrat.

In your study of American history, you should study up on Roger Williams and the principles of religious freedom our country was founded on. Despite what you may have been told, those of us in favor of secular government do not want to take away your freedom of religion and conscience. There are many gay men and women in the military who are laying down their lives so you can have this freedom.

Ok, I will never agree with you folks on slavery. Christians are slaves born to Jesus, and they have no choice in the matter. Likewise, through my study of the bible, 'unrepentants' (In quotes because I made up the word) are slaves to sin. God has created one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor. This is the hard harsh truth of the world through the eyes of the Bible. I will only maintain my position by saying that slavery is never ideal, and not necessarily racist, regardless of what the South did (I do not pretend to defend the South).

On Theocracy. Did you not get that the revival is in the hearts and minds of the people? It is decentralized. I am not looking for some sort of all-Christian utopia. I'll ask you back, what about those who don't have the Spirit? Secular government is under God as well. My understanding is that God will rule the nation through its people, not its leaders. Think bottom up, not top down.

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It's Skype, mom, Skype! Jeez! :roll:

:lol:

YEAH! like totally....

Were you born in the last century or something? a-duuuuuuuuuuh........

:lol:

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Ok, I will never agree with you folks on slavery. Christians are slaves born to Jesus, and they have no choice in the matter. Likewise, through my study of the bible, 'unrepentants' (In quotes because I made up the word) are slaves to sin. God has created one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor. This is the hard harsh truth of the world through the eyes of the Bible. I will only maintain my position by saying that slavery is never ideal, and not necessarily racist, regardless of what the South did (I do not pretend to defend the South).

On Theocracy. Did you not get that the revival is in the hearts and minds of the people? It is decentralized. I am not looking for some sort of all-Christian utopia. I'll ask you back, what about those who don't have the Spirit? Secular government is under God as well. My understanding is that God will rule the nation through its people, not its leaders. Think bottom up, not top down.

Excuse me? I choose to follow Christ as God gave me free will. If you have read the bible then you will know that every person on this earth has free will. As for the rest of your post I give you this;

ppobDZeSJ9Q

You and I must be reading different bibles and before you ask, I read the KJV.

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And Josiah, the internet is not the best source--a few quick keystrokes, and anything can and will be modified. At least if something's in print and published by a publishing house, you can go back to it. The internet changes constantly. Make sure that your sources are respected, please.

Yes, I try to stick to books. Trust me, I do NOT believe everything I hear. I heard on the radio once that trying to research via the internet isn't usually that helpful. You can find any number of 'facts' to support any position under the sky. I am more interested at firsthand stuff. At least as close as I can get. you know, like Wikepedia :roll:

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Excuse me? I choose to follow Christ as God gave me free will. If you have read the bible then you will know that every person on this earth has free will. As for the rest of your post I give you this;

ppobDZeSJ9Q

You and I must be reading different bibles and before you ask, I read the KJV.

Ok, you have opened a whole new can of worms here. I will seem completely contradictory right now (forgive me), but I agree with you too. If you read C. S. Lewis' book, Mere Christianity, my position is pretty close to his. I'll see what I can come up with for you

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Hmm, a theocracy in which slavery is legal and gays are stoned? Why, I have some *excellent* news for you, Josiah! A country like that already exists! It has some other nice features, too. Everyone must dress modestly, especially women. Time is set aside for prayer several times a day, and everyone participates. Memorizing "god's word" is a large part of the education in schools. Families eschew birth control, most having at least 5 children. This country really and truly does exist in the world today...don't you want to move there?? (Please?)

This fabulous country goes by the name of Saudi Arabia.

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...

Yes, I try to stick to books. Trust me, I do NOT believe everything I hear. I heard on the radio once that trying to research via the internet isn't usually that helpful. You can find any number of 'facts' to support any position under the sky. I am more interested at firsthand stuff. At least as close as I can get. you know, like Wikepedia :roll:

You may want to learn to do some fact checking. The internet is just one big encyclopedia. Bibliographies are helpful in pursuing an issue beyond just an article. Reading peer reviewed articles in legitimate journals is a good way to expand one's knowledge base, with contemporary information. Do you know how to resource an issue down to primary sources? Was that something you were taught at home?

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Josiah, I'm a nice person. I live a good life. I'm also gay, and no amount of bible thumping is going to change that. Let's say your perfect dreamboat of a theocracy comes to pass. Would you really throw rocks at me until I was dead over love, Josiah? Seriously?

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Guest Anonymous

Josiah - between your blog, your Facebook and Twitter accounts, you come across as a stupid, arrogant, racist little shit, with worryingly violent overtones in the words and images you post.

And most worrying of all is that you work in your father's business, fitting accessibility aids and facilities into older adults' homes. I wouldn't let you near a lego set unsupervised; you'd have a snowball in hell's chance of getting near any of my elderly relatives. I really struggle to understand how your parents tolerate the way you publicly post such shit on your websites, in a way that clearly identifies you as being part of their business.

Seriously, step away from the keyboard, little boy, and go and have another think. :roll:

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I went to your facebook page and found a recommendation for 'Well Hung Christmas Lighting'. Is that your side business? Are the workers well hung, or just the lighting?

After the maggots, slavs, slavery and then the 'Well Hung', I certainly could not take you seriously.

Your bone dry wit is not witty, BTW.

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Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING SOUTHERN SLAVERY!

as for history books, mainly I have used the internet. My education has been pretty broad, while not very deep, I am continuing my knowledge and education of history as we speak, and it remains one of my favorite subjects. I am not widely read, though I will be someday... one work I have reads parts out of and refer to often is A History of the American People, by Paul Johnson, as well as a few other of Paul Johnson's works.

I have read "Empire" by Niall Ferguson, and cant wait to read his more recent books about historical economy.

[edit]

I certainly have not been brainwashed in my education if that is what you are trying to find out. I want to stress that I still have lots to learn about history, and have never claimed to be a historian. Quite literally my main curriculum has been throughout my childhood has been private study of the Word of God. I hope that answers your question?

It is possible that I was being unclear. My response was not to prove how horrible slavery was, instead my intent was to explain that slaves did not enter a contract with their owners.

Community college might help you catch up on some history. My son is attending one full time with the hopes of transferring into university later.

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Hmm, a theocracy in which slavery is legal and gays are stoned? Why, I have some *excellent* news for you, Josiah! A country like that already exists! It has some other nice features, too. Everyone must dress modestly, especially women. Time is set aside for prayer several times a day, and everyone participates. Memorizing "god's word" is a large part of the education in schools. Families eschew birth control, most having at least 5 children. This country really and truly does exist in the world today...don't you want to move there?? (Please?)

This fabulous country goes by the name of Saudi Arabia.

I am glad that you are sticking around Josiah.

This is from the bible

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

English Standard Version (ESV)

Marrying Female Captives

10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have

In other words, if a Christian theocracy goes to war, the soldiers can kill a woman's family, take her captive and in proper time, rape her. Of course, she will be given a month to grieve :shock: She isn't a slave but it doesn't sound as if she has much choice in being a wife either. Of course, some people point out that at least, there is the framework to treat her honorably. Her husband isn't allowed to sell her to other men. However, this is the same god that micromanaged the type of fiber used in the Hebrews clothing. He couldn't have said, rape and pedophilia was wrong? Read the verse in your own bible. There is nothing about the woman getting a say in whether she marries or even leaves the marriage. The power is in the hands of a soldier who might have killed her entire family.

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Here are some other troubling verses that you would have to follow if you stone gays. You can't keep the Old Testament verses on stoning one group of people and ignore verses ordering you to kill others.

Will you follow these verses?

Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
I suppose that priest could mean pastor to nonCatholics. Are you for burning to death, daughters of pastors who have sex outside marriage?

Deu 22:23 ¶ If a damsel [that is] a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, [being] in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

This could indicate two consenting people but it could also be a young women too frightened to scream. The verse makes no mention of the woman's willingness so it could be applied to terrified rape victims. A man rapes a woman and they both are stoned. Please notice that the entire text differentiates between a woman's treatment who is betrothed and a woman who is not betrothed.

How would a modern society work if it applied such a rule? Rape victims would be stoned to death! Think of your female family members. Would you want your sisters or mother stoned because they were raped?

Deu 22:25 ¶ But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:  



 Deu 22:26   But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; [there is] in the damsel no sin [worthy] of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so [is] this matter:  



 Deu 22:27   For he found her in the field, [and] the betrothed damsel cried, and [there was] none to save her.  

This verse indicates that the writers are speaking about rape victims. That would mean that the woman from the city was a rape victim, after all. So, if you sister or mother were raped in an area away from other people, they won't be stoned.

Deu 22:28 ¶ If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

A virgin who is raped has to marry her attacker. Again, imagine this happening to your sister.

Are you really sure that you want to use the Old Testament as a basis for punishment in a modern society?

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It's Skype, mom, Skype! Jeez! :roll:

:lol:

I think my dreams of being the cool, trendy mom are fading. :lol:

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Well, for starters you are enslaving someone, taking away their freedom, taking away their ability to choose what to do with their life. It can't be compared to employment because at the end of the day, you can choose to walk away from a job. You can't choose to walk away from slavery. Slavery at it's core is saying "I view you as not a human, but a possesion of mine." That you can't see this as harmful blows my mind. Truly it does. I think you are the first person who has ever come here and defended slavery.

Sorry for continually quoting myself.

Josiah, here is how debate works, we have provided you with how slavery isn't treating your brother as yourself which is in clear violation Jesus' second commandment, and if you are going to maintain your stance that it really doesn't hurt people, you prove us wrong.

Just saying "I don't agree with you." makes it look like you know you can't defend your beliefs, but you are too proud to admit it. You need to show how taking away a person's freedom is loving them like you love yourself. How can one say "We are equal, but I OWN you like I own the car over there."?

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Ok, I will never agree with you folks on slavery. Christians are slaves born to Jesus, and they have no choice in the matter. Likewise, through my study of the bible, 'unrepentants' (In quotes because I made up the word) are slaves to sin. God has created one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor. This is the hard harsh truth of the world through the eyes of the Bible. I will only maintain my position by saying that slavery is never ideal, and not necessarily racist, regardless of what the South did (I do not pretend to defend the South).

I'm not sure what the bolded part means, but it sounds ominous. Do you believe that people have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness regardless of their religious convictions, or do you not?

On Theocracy. Did you not get that the revival is in the hearts and minds of the people? It is decentralized. I am not looking for some sort of all-Christian utopia. I'll ask you back, what about those who don't have the Spirit? Secular government is under God as well. My understanding is that God will rule the nation through its people, not its leaders. Think bottom up, not top down.

I don't think you understood my point about theocracy. You said gays who do not "repent" under threat of death would be stoned, if "God rules the hearts and minds of a nation." It doesn't matter to me if people are stoning the Reform rabbi because out of strong personal conviction or because they have been commanded to do so, or because they fear what the "God-ruled" majority would do to them if they objected. You are talking about enforcing your interpretation of the Bible on people whose consciences cannot accept it, but you seem to think that a theocratic lynch mob is somehow better than an organized theocratic government. I disagree. I hope I would have the courage to stand up to either the theocratic lynch mob or the theocratic government on behalf of these marginalized "others", but I can't be sure I would have the courage.

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I'm not willing to go back into all of that interview crap. ;)

Yes I know her personally and she will get your message.

On what basis do you call God a jerk though? Reality is harsh, and he created it. Would you consider the Bible as harsh, less harsh, or more harsh than reality? Why?[/quote]

As for the bolded. Reality is harsh, reality in which a God does things like give Raquel a horse or the seven sisters a ham, all of which are nothing more than shallow wants, yet lets children starve to death, means that the God who does that is a jerk. What sort of God gives a privilaged teen a horse while letting children go without food?

If there is a god who does things like that, I want no part of it. I believe more in a God who set things in motion, but is not actively involved in the world. And I still struggle accepting that.

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Because my son is Josiah's age, I have been reading this thread to him. He asked an interesting question for Josiah.If a married couple want to have anal sex, would they be stoned or does the punishment only apply to homosexuals?

Some people define sodomy as both anal and oral sex. I'd be curious how Josiah defines the term

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Stoning gays AND supporting slavery. I think Josiah should be nominated for some Free JInger award, but I'm not sure which.

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Guest Anonymous
Stoning gays AND supporting slavery. I think Josiah should be nominated for some Free JInger award, but I'm not sure which.

The "Most Likely To Kill Someone And Say God Told Him To Do It" award? I know it's an unwieldy title, but sheesh. :shock:

I would never want to be in the same zipcode as Josiah.

Josiah - why does it seem that you want to enforce all of the nasty bits of the Bible, but you appear to reject the words of Jesus when it comes to loving other people? Whatever happened to Matthew 5:5, and Matthew 5:7?

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Also, Josiah - are you a hyper Calvinist? Because that comment about Christians having no choice about whether they are or not makes me think that you are. Do you believe that people who aren't Calvinists can be Christians?

**Edited because even nasty, pretentious people should have their names spelled correctly.

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Or John 8:7. Do you really think Jesus would be heaving rocks at gay people Josiah?

And since you want feedback on your writing, when you talk about wanting to stone people, you sound scary beyond all reason. I don't want to be anything like you or have my kids grow up to be like you. I would be horrified and feel like I had failed at parenting if I had a 19 year old that supported slavery and talked about killing people they didn't agree with. Maybe you don't mean to sound this way, but this is how you come off to people not in your inner circle.

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