It's not Christmas until you bring up a rotting carcass.

[Rosesp]

I did not realize that there were tons of Christians here. as for the attacking comment, my reply is 'fair enough.'

I no longer agreed with everything I wrote, so I asked her to delete it.

@Lissar. Yes I believe you can. The same way an employer can love an employee as himself. The form of slavery in the south had plenty of problems, none of which I deny, but from what I understand, if you are a slave (regardless of how you got there) you are contracted to the master (much like a subcontractor in a business, except permanently) If the slave breaks the contract, then he is obligated to receive the consequences. Also from what I understand, slaves were usually in a business context, in a way employees for life.

I will never deny the idea of the depravity of man to abuse this principle, but I cannot budge that slavery is permitted (not encouraged, mind you) Man can be just as cruel and disgusting with employees in a business, or with children in their home, or with people in a church congregation, or with citizens of the state.

If God rules the hearts and minds of the people of a nation, sodomy would not be much of a problem, and it would be socially unacceptable. The few of them that would be, would be subjected to this tragic end of stoning, provided they are sans repentance. The thing is that Jesus died for sodomites too. Are they people? then Jesus died for them. The Bible is clear that it is a sin, and it is equally clear that those who repent and turn to Jesus are forgiven freely. But they must count the cost, and leave behind their sinful ways.

Equivalently, if God ruled the hearts and minds of the people of a nation, then if there was slavery (which I think is unlikely) then the abuse of subordinates would also be not much of a problem, as well as being socially unacceptable. I am not talking about just anyone here, these would be people that (for the most part) are alive in Jesus, and have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Formergothardite, are you a christian?

[fundiefun]

I did not realize that there were tons of Christians here. as for the attacking comment, my reply is 'fair enough.'

I no longer agreed with everything I wrote, so I asked her to delete it.

@Lissar. Yes I believe you can. The same way an employer can love an employee as himself. The form of slavery in the south had plenty of problems, none of which I deny, but from what I understand, if you are a slave (regardless of how you got there) you are contracted to the master (much like a subcontractor in a business, except permanently) If the slave breaks the contract, then he is obligated to receive the consequences. Also from what I understand, slaves were usually in a business context, in a way employees for life.

I will never deny the idea of the depravity of man to abuse this principle, but I cannot budge that slavery is permitted (not encouraged, mind you) Man can be just as cruel and disgusting with employees in a business, or with children in their home, or with people in a church congregation, or with citizens of the state.

If God rules the hearts and minds of the people of a nation, sodomy would not be much of a problem, and it would be socially unacceptable. The few of them that would be, would be subjected to this tragic end of stoning, provided they are sans repentance. The thing is that Jesus died for sodomites too. Are they people? then Jesus died for them. The Bible is clear that it is a sin, and it is equally clear that those who repent and turn to Jesus are forgiven freely. But they must count the cost, and leave behind their sinful ways.

Equivalently, if God ruled the hearts and minds of the people of a nation, then if there was slavery (which I think is unlikely) then the abuse of subordinates would also be not much of a problem, as well as being socially unacceptable. I am not talking about just anyone here, these would be people that (for the most part) are alive in Jesus, and have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

Formergothardite, are you a christian?

Not to draw this out, but what would Jesus think and could you honestly stand before him and tell him that you supported someone who thinks slavery wasn't bad? There is no Christian sane justification for someone to think it's okay to harm their fellow brother in Christ.

Psalm 94:16

Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?

[debrand]

I The form of slavery in the south had plenty of problems, none of which I deny, but from what I understand, if you are a slave (regardless of how you got there) you are contracted to the master (much like a subcontractor in a business, except permanently) If the slave breaks the contract, then he is obligated to receive the consequences. Also from what I understand, slaves were usually in a business context, in a way employees for life.

What history books did you use in school? The question is not meant as snark but is serious.

Don't you realize that slaves were brought to kidnapped from their homeland and brought to America in chains? How can they have voluntarily entered a contract?

[debrand]

The law provided slaves with virtually no protection from their masters. On large plantations this power was delegated to overseers. These men were under considerable pressure from the plantation owners to maximize profits. They did this by bullying the slaves into increasing productivity.

The main method used to control the behaviour of slaves was the threat of having them whipped. The number of lashes depended on the seriousness of the offence. Austin Steward wrote that on his plantation 39 was the number for most offences. Francis Fredric ran away and was free for nine weeks. After he was captured he was given 107 lashes. Moses Roper, received 200 lashes and this was only brought to an end when the master's wife pleaded for his life to be spared.

As they knew that as blacks were unable to give testimony against white people in court, overseers knew that they were fairly safe in handing out these whippings. In September, 1844, the St. Louis Republican reported that a eight year old black girl had been whipped to death. However, the master of the girl was acquitted.

Women as well as men were whipped. This was one of the reasons why slaves preferred to marry women from other plantations. Moses Grandy argued that: "no colored man wishes to live at the house where his wife lives, for he has to endure the continual misery of seeing her flogged and abused without daring to say a word in her defence." Henry Bibb agreed pointing out: "If my wife must be exposed to the insults and licentious passions of wicked slave-drivers and overseers. Heaven forbid that I should be compelled to witness the sight."

In her autobiography Elizabeth Keckley reported how she enjoyed a good relationship with her master who was a church minister. However, he arranged for her to be whipped in order to subdue what he called her "stubborn pride".

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASwhipping.htm

[Rosesp]

Not so fast many of us here are Christians, but can read between the lines of the BS that many fundies spew. It's pretty common sense that slavery was a racist institution no matter how "nice" their slave masters were to them. To throw out the I have black friends card I'm not a racist doesn't hold weight. Supporting someone who believes it's okay to own anyone as property as long as they were treated nice is the most unchristian stance I have ever seen and there is no other way to spin that. What would Jesus think if you were to die today would he give you a pass on that or be hurt for supporting someone who thinks it's okay to do evil to his fellow brother? Did you forget some of these bible verses?

1 Peter 3:11 Turn from evil; do good; seek peace; pursue it

John 16:2 Anyone who kills you thinks he is offering service to God ...because they have not known the Father

Psalm 141:4

Do not let my heart be drawn to what is evil so that I take part in wicked deeds along with those who are evildoers; do not let me eat their delicacies.

Proverbs 5:22

The evil deeds of the wicked ensnare them; the cords of their sins hold them fast.

Revelation 2:2

I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

Psalm 94:16

Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?

No I did not. Again, I do not like Wilson's historical stance, but I do not see it as racist. Ignorant as I am, I do no know what to make of it for now.

How is that so unchristian? Explain to me exactly... How do you explain the fact that the Bible permits slavery indirectly. I agree with you. Slavery to man is far from ideal, the same way that debt is far from ideal. Debt is a form of slavery to man, and the Bible does not call it a sin to be in debt. It is just not ideal. Death is not ideal, but it is not a sin.

Methinks you would even say that death and debt are both evils, and anyone who would subject people to either is evil and not treating his brother as such.

Not to draw this out, but what would Jesus think and could you honestly stand before him and tell him that you supported someone who thinks slavery wasn't bad? There is no Christian sane justification for someone to think it's okay to harm their fellow brother in Christ.

It does not offend my conscience. First of all, I am not responsible for his view on everything. I agree with some of the stuff that Darwin wrote (GASP) and even support some of his statements. They are obviously much fewer and far between than with someone like Wilson, but the principle stands. Secondly, I need better explanation that slavery is necessarily harming a fellow brother in Christ.

[debrand]

1

) St. Louis Republican (15th September, 1844)

On Friday last the coroner held an inquest at the house of Judge Dunica, a few miles south of the city, over the body of a negro girl, about 8 years of age, belonging to Mr. Cordell. The body exhibited evidence of the most cruel whipping and beating we have ever heard of. The flesh on the back and limbs was beaten to a jelly -- one shoulder-bone was laid bare -- there were several cuts, apparently from a club, on the head -- and around the neck was the indentation of a cord, by which it is supposed she had been confined to a tree. She had been hired by a man by the name of Tanner, residing in the neighborhood, and was sent home in this condition. After coming home, her constant request, until her death, was for bread, by which it would seem that she had been starved as well as unmercifully whipped. The jury returned a verdict that she came to her death by the blows inflicted by some persons unknown whilst she was in the employ of Mr. Tanner. Mrs. Tanner has been tried and acquitted.

(2) New York Herald (19th October, 1844)

I yesterday visited the cell of Cornelia, the slave charged with being the accomplice of Mrs. Ann Tanner (recently acquitted) in the murder of a little negro girl, by whipping and starvation. She admits her participancy, but says she was compelled to take the part she did in the affair. On one occasion she says the child was tied to a tree from Monday morning till Friday night, exposed by day to the scorching rays of the sun, and by night to the stinging of myriads of mosquitoes; and that during all this time the child had nothing to eat, but was whipped daily. The child told the same story to Dr. McDowell.

(3) Austin Steward, Twenty-Two Years a Slave (1857)

The usual mode of punishing the poor slaves was, to make them take off their clothes to the bare back, and then tie their hands before them with a rope, pass the end of the rope over a beam, and draw them up till they stood on the tips of their toes. Sometimes they tied their legs together and placed a rail between. Thus prepared, the overseer proceeded to punish the poor, helpless victim. Thirty-nine was the number of lashes ordinarily inflicted for the most trifling offence. Who can imagine a position more painful? Oh, who, with feelings of common humanity, could look quietly on such torture? Who could remain unmoved, to see a fellow-creature thus tied, unable to move or to raise a hand in his own defence; scourged on his bare back, with a cowhide, until the blood flows in streams from his quivering flesh? And for what? Often for the most trifling fault; and, as sometimes occurs, because a mere whim or caprice of his brutal overseer demands it. Pale with passion, his eyes flashing and his stalwart frame trembling with rage, like some volcano, just ready to belch forth its fiery contents, and, in all its might and fury, spread death and destruction all around, he continues to wield the bloody lash on the broken flesh of the poor, pleading slave, until his arm grows weary, or he sinks down, utterly exhausted, on the very spot where already stand the pools of blood which his cruelty has drawn from the mangled body of his helpless victim.

Nor is this cruel punishment inflicted on the bare backs of the male portion of slaves only. Oh no! The slave husband must submit without a murmur, to see the form of his cherished, but wretched wife, not only exposed to the rude gaze of a beastly tyrant, but he must unresistingly see the heavy cowhide descend upon her shrinking flesh, and her manacled limbs writhe in inexpressible torture, while her piteous cries for help ring through his ears unanswered. The wild throbbing of his heart must be suppressed, and his righteous indignation find no voice, in the presence of the human monster who holds dominion over him.

[Rosesp]

What history books did you use in school? The question is not meant as snark but is serious.

Don't you realize that slaves were brought to kidnapped from their homeland and brought to America in chains? How can they have voluntarily entered a contract?

Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING SOUTHERN SLAVERY!

as for history books, mainly I have used the internet. My education has been pretty broad, while not very deep, I am continuing my knowledge and education of history as we speak, and it remains one of my favorite subjects. I am not widely read, though I will be someday... one work I have reads parts out of and refer to often is A History of the American People, by Paul Johnson, as well as a few other of Paul Johnson's works.

I have read "Empire" by Niall Ferguson, and cant wait to read his more recent books about historical economy.

[edit]

I certainly have not been brainwashed in my education if that is what you are trying to find out. I want to stress that I still have lots to learn about history, and have never claimed to be a historian. Quite literally my main curriculum has been throughout my childhood has been private study of the Word of God. I hope that answers your question?

[Witsec7]

If you are serious about adding some depth to your history studies try Zinns Peoples History of the US and then read The Family.

[Rosesp]

Thanks for the advice! Who is The Family by?

[Witsec7]

Jeff Sharlet, both books have excellent bibliographies for further study.

[formergothardite]

I'm not what most people would consider a Christian. Not anymore anyway. I actually read the Bible every day. But do it with the knowledge that this is a book that was passed down over hundreds of years, put together by a group of men who are as fallible as I am, and when it was translated, it is kind of iffy that some of the words were translated correctly, like with homosexuality. I also think if all of it is true, it makes God a huge jerk.

What have you changed your mind about since writing that post for Miss Raquel and what caused you to change it?

I wasn't being snarky about the horse. If you know her in real life, try and get her to treat the horse better. There are also lots of horse experts on here and it is pretty much universally agreed that she is not being a good horse owner. She is either going to get herself killed or end up getting the horse killed.

[Rosesp]

I'm not what most people would consider a Christian. Not anymore anyway. I actually read the Bible every day. But do it with the knowledge that this is a book that was passed down over hundreds of years, put together by a group of men who are as fallible as I am, and when it was translated, it is kind of iffy that some of the words were translated correctly, like with homosexuality. I also think if all of it is true, it makes God a huge jerk.

What have you changed your mind about since writing that post for Miss Raquel and what caused you to change it?

I wasn't being snarky about the horse. If you know her in real life, try and get her to treat the horse better. There are also lots of horse experts on here and it is pretty much universally agreed that she is not being a good horse owner. She is either going to get herself killed or end up getting the horse killed.

I'm not willing to go back into all of that interview crap. ;)

Yes I know her personally and she will get your message.

On what basis do you call God a jerk though? Reality is harsh, and he created it. Would you consider the Bible as harsh, less harsh, or more harsh than reality? Why?

[Rosesp]

Well, I did not ask if most people would consider you a Christian. I asked if you are one. Are you one in your own opinion? This is not a question of whether your are going to heaven or hell, or whether you do 'christian' things, or if you live a righteous life. The question is simple. Yes or no will do.

After reading that, I know that can come across as snood, so imagine me asking with earnestness and care :)

[fundiefun]

Well, I did not ask if most people would consider you a Christian. I asked if you are one. Are you one in your own opinion? This is not a question of whether your are going to heaven or hell, or whether you do 'christian' things, or if you live a righteous life. The question is simple. Yes or no will do.

After reading that, I know that can come across as snood, so imagine me asking with earnestness and care :)

I am I spent five years studying the different denominations of Christianity and church hopped from different churches to get a feel for their doctrines and styles of worship. I ended up spending the most amount of time at the assemblies of God church and Catholic. In the end of it all I ended up converting to Catholicism. Were you raised in ATI or Vision Forum? What do you think of the whole Stay at Home Daughter movement and do you think it creates infantile girls? These are legit questions I'm curious about

[Rosesp]

I am I spent five years studying the different denominations of Christianity and church hopped from different churches to get a feel for their doctrines and styles of worship. I ended up spending the most amount of time at the assemblies of God church and Catholic. In the end of it all I ended up converting to Catholicism. Were you raise in ATI or Vision Forum?

Neither. I am pretty familiar with Vision Forum, and agree a lot with what they have to offer, but if you are familiar with the CREC denomination, this is the denomination that has probably had the most influence on my thought. To be honest, I think I am the most sympathetic person I know from our church with Catholicism. I could be wrong... We now attend a Presbyterian church, if you wanted to know...

[Boogalou]

Josiahw, I am going to agree with you here for a second: slarvery is not necessarily racist. Slavery, as practised in the United States from (I'll be generous with my dates here) 1500 to emancipation WAS racist. Slavery, the entire institution, is not necessarily. Take, for example, the Pacific Northwest coast pre-contact where Native Canadians and Americans owned fellow Native Canadians and Americans, often from their own tribe as parents would sometimes sell their children to pay off debts. I can't really see that as racist, if someone sees it differently, please point it out to me. Southern American slavery is racist but not all slavery is. I really have no idea what your original post on the matter said, this is in response to your posting here so I'm not sure if you were referencing American slavery or slavery in general.

I was going to say something about the Bible saying slavery is fine and dandy and how I think that it absolutely horrible, but now I don't feel like it. I think it sure says something about the Bible though.

[formergothardite]

No, I do not consider myself a Christian since I don't believe Christ is the only way to heaven. If God is okay with slavery, He is a jerk.

[formergothardite]

No I did not. Again, I do not like Wilson's historical stance, but I do not see it as racist. Ignorant as I am, I do no know what to make of it for now.

How is that so unchristian? Explain to me exactly... How do you explain the fact that the Bible permits slavery indirectly. I agree with you. Slavery to man is far from ideal, the same way that debt is far from ideal. Debt is a form of slavery to man, and the Bible does not call it a sin to be in debt. It is just not ideal. Death is not ideal, but it is not a sin.

Methinks you would even say that death and debt are both evils, and anyone who would subject people to either is evil and not treating his brother as such.

It does not offend my conscience. First of all, I am not responsible for his view on everything. I agree with some of the stuff that Darwin wrote (GASP) and even support some of his statements. They are obviously much fewer and far between than with someone like Wilson, but the principle stands. Secondly, I need better explanation that slavery is necessarily harming a fellow brother in Christ.

Well, for starters you are enslaving someone, taking away their freedom, taking away their ability to choose what to do with their life. It can't be compared to employment because at the end of the day, you can choose to walk away from a job. You can't choose to walk away from slavery. Slavery at it's core is saying "I view you as not a human, but a possesion of mine." That you can't see this as harmful blows my mind. Truly it does. I think you are the first person who has ever come here and defended slavery.

[Witsec1]

@Lissar. Yes I believe you can. The same way an employer can love an employee as himself. The form of slavery in the south had plenty of problems, none of which I deny, but from what I understand, if you are a slave (regardless of how you got there) you are contracted to the master (much like a subcontractor in a business, except permanently) If the slave breaks the contract, then he is obligated to receive the consequences. Also from what I understand, slaves were usually in a business context, in a way employees for life.

So, being kidnapped or born into slavery is the same as me signing a business contract? Yeah, not really. Taking advantage of someone's weakness to bind their labor and their bodies and their wills to me in perpetuity is not "loving". This is Orwellian doublespeak.

Man can be just as cruel and disgusting with employees in a business, or with children in their home, or with people in a church congregation, or with citizens of the state.

The concept of inalienable human rights. Either you believe in it or you don't. Do you?

If God rules the hearts and minds of the people of a nation, sodomy would not be much of a problem, and it would be socially unacceptable. The few of them that would be, would be subjected to this tragic end of stoning, provided they are sans repentance. The thing is that Jesus died for sodomites too. Are they people? then Jesus died for them. The Bible is clear that it is a sin, and it is equally clear that those who repent and turn to Jesus are forgiven freely. But they must count the cost, and leave behind their sinful ways.

So if your brand of Christianity succeeds in winning the hearts and minds of the majority, you would impose your religious laws on people who do not believe in your religion? What is the place of Quakers, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists in your government? Will religious minorities have freedom?

For instance, would you stone the rabbi of the Reform Jewish congregation in my town in the public square, and her wife, if they stuck to their beliefs and their love for each other? I hope, if your outfit ever comes to power, that I would have the courage to wear the pink triangle in solidarity.

Equivalently, if God ruled the hearts and minds of the people of a nation, then if there was slavery (which I think is unlikely) then the abuse of subordinates would also be not much of a problem, as well as being socially unacceptable. I am not talking about just anyone here, these would be people that (for the most part) are alive in Jesus, and have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

And how do you determine who is alive in Jesus, and has the Holy Spirit? Once the path to power is to belong to a certain church and profess certain beliefs, you can bet power-hungry people will swarm to it. This is not any different than the CS Lewis version of theocracy. Once you believe your group has the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and that you are justified in imposing it on other people by force (stoning), you have become a theocrat.

In your study of American history, you should study up on Roger Williams and the principles of religious freedom our country was founded on. Despite what you may have been told, those of us in favor of secular government do not want to take away your freedom of religion and conscience. There are many gay men and women in the military who are laying down their lives so you can have this freedom.

[ladypuglover]

Well, I did not ask if most people would consider you a Christian. I asked if you are one. Are you one in your own opinion? This is not a question of whether your are going to heaven or hell, or whether you do 'christian' things, or if you live a righteous life. The question is simple. Yes or no will do.

After reading that, I know that can come across as snood, so imagine me asking with earnestness and care :)

Josiahw, I am the poster who posted on your blog. I also forgot to leave a name as I honestly forgot to do so. Forgive me as I am a mother to 5 sons (2 are older than you and 1 just younger than you and 2 much younger) and am often pulled at a moments notice to dash off. I am also a born again Christian. I am married to a Christian man who also is a born again believer of Christ and we have raised our children as Christ would approve. I do feel I am following Christ's laws to the best of my ability each day. A lot of days I fail and fall flat on my face and ask the Lord to forgive me and help me do His will. Some days I can almost feel the Lord's hand apon me saying, "that'll do pig, that'll do." (from the movie Babe) I am a SAHM by choice and have spent my entire adult and teen life volunteering for people who most wouldn't touch with with a 10 foot pole. Why? Because I felt lead to do so by my Lord. I also do the same for animals for the same reasons. Will all of this matter to the Lord if I just gave lip service to Him and didn't follow His laws? No, but I have a personal relationship with Him as do you and I am in no doubt of what and how my Lord wants me to serve Him. And one of those ways is not to sit idlely by and watch/listen to others slander Him just because they too claim to serve Him. I am not a better Christian than anyone else on this planet, far from it, but I will not stand for abuse in His name.

I have more to say but I have to step away for a bit and get my youngest ready for bed. I will try to return tonight but if not then this weekend maybe.

Oh, I'm glad your here. I hope you really listen to what the other men and woman have to say as it will be a real learning experience to step out of your comfort zone. You will be surprised how little you really do know. At least that is what it was like for me the first time I stepped out of my comfort zone and I'm glad I did.

[clarinetpower]

After reading that, I know that can come across as snood, so imagine me asking with earnestness and care :)

Snood means hairnet or that wrinkly bit that hangs down over a turkey's beak. Perhaps you meant snide?

[ladypuglover]

Snood means hairnet or that wrinkly bit that hangs down over a turkey's beak. Perhaps you meant snide?

OR snob? Snot? :?

[formergothardite]

Wait, I missed where he was stoning the gays. What happened to "let him without sin cast the first stone." Are we dumping Jesus and picking up rocks now? And really, the Bible is so not clear about homosexuality. Sure, the way it is translated makes it look that way, but if you look at the original words, it really isn't.

I thought perhaps snood was some new trendy word all the kids were using when they syped each other. Isn't it a game too?

[clarinetpower]

I really don't understand why you are defending slavery. Is it because it's in the Bible? The Bible is also an historical record--just because something's in it, doesn't mean it's Godly and Right and What We Are Supposed To Do. In 99.9% of cases, slavery is not a business contract. It's forced indentured servitude. IMO, God didn't make us to serve anyone else but him, and if he doesn't force it, who the heck has the right to? I just can't understand why you would defend this.

[Witsec1]

I thought perhaps snood was some new trendy word all the kids were using when they syped each other. Isn't it a game too?

It's Skype, mom, Skype! Jeez! :roll:

:lol: