Jump to content
IGNORED

It's not Christmas until you bring up a rotting carcass.


formergothardite

Recommended Posts

One of the aspects of homeschooling that annoys the hell out of me, is the overabundance of history books that only don't expose the negative side of America's past. In order to teach my children, I have had to search on the internet for alternate viewpoints. I finally started buying secular history books.

For the Josiah, it might come as a shock to realize that our forefathers weren't as positvely heroic as he has been taught. In the past, Americans did a lot of crappy things.(we have done good also)

I am not antiAmerican. Many members of my family are military personal. My own father died in Vietnam. The American ideal of freedom and human equality is beautiful but kids should learn that America has fallen short of it's ideal many times. All I want is balance in history. Showing the bad will not make a person hate their country but it can make someone want to improve it.

As far as slavery, Josiah put yourself in the slaves place. Imagine that your family did have an owner who wasn't cruel. Would you want your sisters and brothers sold off on this person's whim. Would you want your sisters to be looked at as property? Throughout history, women have not fared well when they were viewed as property. Is there any Christians among your acquantice now that you would like to be owned by? Do you really think that most people do well when they are given absolute control over others?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 316
  • Created
  • Last Reply

The brevity of my replies is due to my full time job.

Just wanted to say that this made me think there might be a flicker of light in that skull of yours. That is a good question. Why, if southern slavery was so great for the slaves, did they risk life and limb to escape? Why did the southern states need to pass a Fugitive Slave Act forcing non-slave states to return escaped slaves?

In the early '80's, I was with a group of high school students on a tour of East Berlin. The tour guide was of course from the official East German tourist agency, and of course she had to toe the official party line about the wonders of the German Democratic Republic. Finally someone in our group asked her why, if the GDR was so great, was there this great big wall preventing people from going over to West Germany. Her answer made about as much sense and contained as much truth as "Southern Slavery As It Was" .

Exactly my point. When I say open minded, I mean that I am not afraid of the truth one bit. Even if it means I wrong in the past, or if it means that I disagree with certain people I admire for other points. Christianity is basically a historically based religion, and if the history is wrong in the Bible, the verity of the whole thing comes crashing down. I am not afraid of this, and am willing to accept the consequences. Christianity is a religion that holds truth and seeking truth as one of the most important things we can do. If I was to hide facts, or not seek the truth and just believe whatever I am told, not what actually is the Truth, then I am a hypocrite of the worst kind.

I never pretended to know a lot about life, and I am learning the experience of it, and interpret what comes my way by what the Holy Spirit reveals to me. And this is not just by the Word of God, the Bible, but through my search for the truth, and my life experience over time.

I was actually hoping with the skype call that someone would record it, and post it, but it doesn't matter, now that we wont do it.

I would like an answer to this question.

And I am not *for* slavery. I am just not going to condemn people who have slaves, and treat them fairly and with dignity and humanity. Just because I wont shun slave owners, does not mean I am racist against african americans, or any other race, for that matter. I do not have completely the same view of Doug Wilson, nor do I think I ever will. He does not quite put out of the question the fact that slaves were mistreated, but sure plays it down a lot. That concerns me, but I am not completely closed to his view. Or yours for that matter. I am more open to your view on this matter, in fact. Except when you say that slavery is necessarily racist. I don't see it that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So if someone came and enslaved you and your family, yet treated you nicely, you would be happy and never hope for freedom and never dream of people coming to set you free?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am just not going to condemn people who have slaves, and treat them fairly and with dignity and humanity. Just because I wont shun slave owners, does not mean I am racist against african americans, or any other race, for that matter.

Slave owners view humans as property not people with dignity. There is no way you can own another person and view them as actual humans. You are going to see them as a commodity.

Put yourself in the slave's place. What if one of your friend's visited with someone who owned your sisters or mother? It would honestly not bother you that your friend could laugh with the owner who could tell your family what to wear, when to eat and even how to worship?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand having a full time job. I just find it odd that you had time to write long hate filled responses on your blog, you wanted to skype (which I assume would take up a good chunk of time), yet suddenly you don't have a lot of time to post on this forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous
And I am not *for* slavery. I am just not going to condemn people who have slaves, and treat them fairly and with dignity and humanity. Just because I wont shun slave owners, does not mean I am racist against african americans, or any other race, for that matter.

You cannot own a person and believe they are property while treating them fairly, with dignity, and humanity. It's not fucking possible.

You are very naive and very stupid. If you aren't a racist then you should really stop writing racist crap because here's a hint - writing racist crap is something that people who aren't racist don't do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You cannot own a person and believe they are property while treating them fairly, with dignity, and humanity. It's not fucking possible.

You are very naive and very stupid. If you aren't a racist then you should really stop writing racist crap because here's a hint - writing racist crap is something that people who aren't racist don't do.

Exactly, the mere owning of another human means you aren't treating them with humanity and dignity. If you will not stand up against people treating other people as a piece of property, then you officially suck as a Christian and human.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I am not *for* slavery. I am just not going to condemn people who have slaves, and treat them fairly and with dignity and humanity. Just because I wont shun slave owners, does not mean I am racist against african americans, or any other race, for that matter. I do not have completely the same view of Doug Wilson, nor do I think I ever will. He does not quite put out of the question the fact that slaves were mistreated, but sure plays it down a lot. That concerns me, but I am not completely closed to his view. Or yours for that matter. I am more open to your view on this matter, in fact. Except when you say that slavery is necessarily racist. I don't see it that way.

Really - you would not condemn slave owners - present tense?

And southern slavery was racist, because only people of one race were chattel slaves. This was justified on the grounds that Africans were racially inferior. How can you say that slavery in the antebellum South was not racist?

Again, it is Doug Wilson and his co-author (forget the name) who seem to think that it is important to justify Southern slavery in order to justify the Bible. I think it is possible to be a devout Christian and still condemn slavery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slave owners view humans as property not people with dignity. There is no way you can own another person and view them as actual humans. You are going to see them as a commodity.

Put yourself in the slave's place. What if one of your friend's visited with someone who owned your sisters or mother? It would honestly not bother you that your friend could laugh with the owner who could tell your family what to wear, when to eat and even how to worship?

It certainly would bother me. But I would do as told, though I yearned for freedom. I would hate being a slave or the thought of my family and friends as well. I said that I am NOT for slavery. But obviously, the Bible has no problems with it as a sin, and therefore I cannot.

Servants are exhorted to do as their masters command, even the Israelites in captivity were told not to sweat it when they were brought into their owner's places of worship. The Israelites knew who was actually God, and feared him, not man.

Lastly, I do not know what crap you are referring to that I have wrote that is racist. I condemn racism in all its manifestations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It certainly would bother me. But I would do as told, though I yearned for freedom. I would hate being a slave or the thought of my family and friends as well. I said that I am NOT for slavery. But obviously, the Bible has no problems with it as a sin, and therefore I cannot.

Servants are exhorted to do as their masters command, even the Israelites in captivity were told not to sweat it when they were brought into their owner's places of worship. The Israelites knew who was actually God, and feared him, not man.

Lastly, I do not know what crap you are referring to that I have wrote that is racist. I condemn racism in all its manifestations.

Trying to pretend that Southern slavery was not racist, is, by definition, racist.

Riffledit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you are condemning Doug Wilson's booklet about how Southern slavery wasn't that bad?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not comfortable with his historical position. That is all. I said I was going to be researching it in the coming months. I certainly don't believe him historically, at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't realize you had added a comment to the post where you used a filthy menstrual rags:

Why were these things ritually unclean? I don't know. Why did Isaiah use that language? obviously because he was getting a point across. There is very strong language in the Bible, and it has a purpose. You all are right that I went out of my way to say that, and honestly, it is because I knew you were watching.

What is the reason for your intense hate of what you call fundies? Were you burned? Did they hurt you? Are you just complaining cuz it's fun? If you have problems, you can beat us by having more children, but hating all of them, and sending away from you to learn to be good statists. Otherwise, your group is going to vanish in the sea of people who take, "go forth and multiply" seriously.

First of all, things like this are why we think you are nothing but an immature 19 year old. Here you are, a guy that is supposedly a better Christian than people here, you know people here are reading your posts, and you go out of your way to not post things that demonstrate the love of God, but instead make people go "WTF! This guy is messed up!" Really mature and Christ like of you.

And that last paragraph makes you look like a bitter idiot who can't take it that people who dare to disagree with you. Nobody here gives a crap if you decide to have a bunch of kids and homeschool them. Heck we have plenty of members that have large, homeschooling families. What we do care is if you have kids so many kids that you can't bother to raise them and you provide them with a horrible education. I have been in the fundie movement longer than you have been alive and I can tell you that the whole "Have huge families, homeschool them and they will do the same and you will raise up a mighty army for God." Isn't working. Most of the kids raised that way end up sending their kids to public school and either not having kids or having one or two.

And how dare you say that I hate my children. You know absolutely nothing about life. You don't know why I have chosen to only have two children. It isn't because I hate my children, it is because I love them.

I would like you to address this post too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like you to address this post too.

I did not say that you hate them, I said that that is what you should do if you wanted to win. And I have no reason to believe that you are the sort of people that give a flying crap about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that you can tell a tree by its fruit. All I can see here is malice, and systemetized attacks on the fundy group. (I must say that the more I read here, the less in common I realize I have with the 'fundies') Their method is not working because it is reaction to the culture, not necessarily Bible-based. So in reality, most of them are not fundamentalists. They make up what they want (ie, there is a lot of fornication happening, therefore, guys cannot talk to girls [=superstition]) And try to make the Bible fit what they believe. The Bible doesn't work like that.

For sure, you can be irresponsible with your children, but honestly, it can happen (and often does) that small families neglect their children just as harmfully as what happens in large families. I believe the (so called) 'fundies' will continue to have problems with their children until they become ACTUALLY biblical. The Bible is there to change us. To shape us, and we must be willing to say, 'so be it' when it throws down our own philosophy.

That is why Christians must be uncompromising. That is the shape of "Fear God. & Fear Nought."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Doug Wilson thinks what America needs is a theocracy, not freedom of religion that so many people have died for. That is his philosophy, and it seems, yours too. I've got issues with that philosophy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, Doug Wilson thinks what America needs is a theocracy, not freedom of religion that so many people have died for. That is his philosophy, and it seems, yours too. I've got issues with that philosophy.

Fair enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And since Theocracy is the worst, the nearer any government approaches to Theocracy the worse it will be. A metaphysic held by the rulers with the force of a religion, is a bad sign. It forbids them, like the inquisitor, to admit any grain of truth or good in their opponents, it abrogates the ordinary rules of morality, and it gives a seemingly high, super-personal sanction to all the very ordinary human passions by which, like other men, the rulers will frequently be actuated. In a word, it forbids wholesome doubt. A political programme can never in reality be more than probably right. We never know all the facts about the present and we can only guess the future. To attach to a party programme -- whose highest claim is to reasonable prudence -- the sort of assent which we should reserve for demonstrable theorems, is a kind of intoxication,"

- C.S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms, ch. 3.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, not that kind of theocracy. I am talking a theocracy that rules the hearts and minds of the people in the world, and therefore the political sphere. Not a theocracy that rules the politics, and therefore the people, which I concur is damnable.

[Edit]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[Edit]

The fact that you are made of compressed potato product and grease. J/k. The tagline under your username changes with number of posts. I am gunning for "Hits the Pearls with Plumbing LIne"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, not that kind of theocracy. I am talking a theocracy that rules the hearts and minds of the people in the world, and therefore the political sphere. Not a theocracy that rules the politics, and therefore the people, which I concur is damnable.

This really seems like a distinction without a difference, to me. It doesn't matter to my gay friends if they are stoned to death by a theocracy that rules politics, or politics that is ruled by people whose hearts and minds are ruled by religious leaders like Doug Wilson who want to stone gays to death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous
It certainly would bother me. But I would do as told, though I yearned for freedom. I would hate being a slave or the thought of my family and friends as well. I said that I am NOT for slavery. But obviously, the Bible has no problems with it as a sin, and therefore I cannot.

Really? You don't think that the admonition to love one's neighbor as oneself precludes enslaving people? Jesus said that it was the second most important commandment of all. Do you think you can love someone as yourself while treating them as your property? Is not loving your neighbor as yourself a sin?

Matthew 22:36 - 38

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?†And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ “This is the great and foremost commandment. “The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not say that you hate them, I said that that is what you should do if you wanted to win. And I have no reason to believe that you are the sort of people that give a flying crap about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that you can tell a tree by its fruit. All I can see here is malice, and systemetized attacks on the fundy group. (I must say that the more I read here, the less in common I realize I have with the 'fundies') Their method is not working because it is reaction to the culture, not necessarily Bible-based. So in reality, most of them are not fundamentalists. They make up what they want (ie, there is a lot of fornication happening, therefore, guys cannot talk to girls [=superstition]) And try to make the Bible fit what they believe. The Bible doesn't work like that.

For sure, you can be irresponsible with your children, but honestly, it can happen (and often does) that small families neglect their children just as harmfully as what happens in large families. I believe the (so called) 'fundies' will continue to have problems with their children until they become ACTUALLY biblical. The Bible is there to change us. To shape us, and we must be willing to say, 'so be it' when it throws down our own philosophy.

That is why Christians must be uncompromising. That is the shape of "Fear God. & Fear Nought."

You do realize that there are tons of Christians here, don't you? And as for telling a tree from it's fruit, perhaps you should remember that when you lend your support and admiration to a man who thinks Southern slavery was all grand.

And this isn't attacking or persecuting fundies, this is disagreeing with them in a snarky way. If we tried to pass laws stopping them from getting married or adopting children, that would be persecution.

Random question, why did your friend Miss Raquel delete your guy's point of view post from her blog? It isn't in her list and I can't find it on her blog.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did not say that you hate them, I said that that is what you should do if you wanted to win. And I have no reason to believe that you are the sort of people that give a flying crap about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that you can tell a tree by its fruit. All I can see here is malice, and systemetized attacks on the fundy group. (I must say that the more I read here, the less in common I realize I have with the 'fundies') Their method is not working because it is reaction to the culture, not necessarily Bible-based. So in reality, most of them are not fundamentalists. They make up what they want (ie, there is a lot of fornication happening, therefore, guys cannot talk to girls [=superstition]) And try to make the Bible fit what they believe. The Bible doesn't work like that.

For sure, you can be irresponsible with your children, but honestly, it can happen (and often does) that small families neglect their children just as harmfully as what happens in large families. I believe the (so called) 'fundies' will continue to have problems with their children until they become ACTUALLY biblical. The Bible is there to change us. To shape us, and we must be willing to say, 'so be it' when it throws down our own philosophy.

That is why Christians must be uncompromising. That is the shape of "Fear God. & Fear Nought."

Not so fast many of us here are Christians, but can read between the lines of the BS that many fundies spew. It's pretty common sense that slavery was a racist institution no matter how "nice" their slave masters were to them. To throw out the I have black friends card I'm not a racist doesn't hold weight. Supporting someone who believes it's okay to own anyone as property as long as they were treated nice is the most unchristian stance I have ever seen and there is no other way to spin that. What would Jesus think if you were to die today would he give you a pass on that or be hurt for supporting someone who thinks it's okay to do evil to his fellow brother? Did you forget some of these bible verses?

1 Peter 3:11 Turn from evil; do good; seek peace; pursue it

John 16:2 Anyone who kills you thinks he is offering service to God ...because they have not known the Father

Psalm 141:4

Do not let my heart be drawn to what is evil so that I take part in wicked deeds along with those who are evildoers; do not let me eat their delicacies.

Proverbs 5:22

The evil deeds of the wicked ensnare them; the cords of their sins hold them fast.

Revelation 2:2

I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

Psalm 94:16

Who will rise up for me against the wicked? Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.