It's not Christmas until you bring up a rotting carcass.

[booksnbeats]

Should saying you would stone an FJ poster if given the chance count as a death threat?

[celestial]

I will be praying that you find your way out of the spiral of hate you are trapped in, Josiah. Even though it's all you've ever known, it doesn't have to be that way. You can choose love.

There's really nothing more for me to say to you at this point.

[celestial]

Should saying you would stone an FJ poster if given the chance count as a death threat?

The same thought crossed my mind, haha. FJers, I would encourage you to visit his blog where his real name is clearly listed, and google him to find his business. I know we have some posters living in his geographical area and I bet you wouldn't want to support a business with those values.

[debrand]

How do you get that I am hate filled? I could (and would) love all of you in person. ?

You do not understand what love is. On this thread, you have stated that you would stone gays and bisexual. You ignored my questions about stoning rape victims but if you follow the Old Testament on stoning homosexuals, you must believe that rape victims should be stoned. You've also stated that you would not stand against slavery because the bible doesn't condemn it. That is NOT love. It's hatred. How can you not understand that?

I do not think that you have a sense of empathy for others. Several times, I've asked you to put yourself in the place of those that you would condemn but you haven't done so. Are you not able to do so or does it frighten you too much?

Would you believe that someone loved you who wanted to stone you for your religious beliefs?

[Witsec7]

I can't imagine picking a 19 year old to do a remodel. I'd personally prefer a real contractor, with experience. A ramp yeah maybe, if he's a skater a ramp (even one for a wheel chair) would be possibly something he could complete.

Edited to add: its apparently a family affair. And although he grabbed some good photos for the business web page the writing is SODRT

[formergothardite]

I really think this is a case of him, despite his claims, not really thinking about what he believes, just repeating what he has been taught. It seems like he is poorly educated and isolated from the real world. Though I do wonder how the Scouts would take knowing that he is okay with stoning and enslaving people. I wouldn't want my son to be around someone like that.

He has just been told that the Bible says slavery is okay, so when faced with having to face how slavery doesn't violate Jesus' second commandment, he can't. He just goes back to repeating the same stuff he has been told. Same with stoning gay people. He is just repeating what he has been told even though it is clearly not what Jesus would have done. And I am sure that the verses that showed the priest basically punishing a woman by making her abort are giving him some trouble. Those sorts of things were glossed over when I was a fundie and it wasn't until after I left that I really realized that the Bible wasn't saying what I had been taught it was saying.

[Renting with Raggles]

He has just been told that the Bible says slavery is okay, so when faced with having to face how slavery doesn't violate Jesus' second commandment, he can't. He just goes back to repeating the same stuff he has been told. Same with stoning gay people.

So I was thinking of this thread and all the recent fundie flounces which follow the same pattern: take an initial disingenuous tone - claim to be 'open minded', say something reflective of borderline sociopathy, refuse to back up assertions with facts, refuse to respond to concrete questions, when pressed repeat the same set answers which are so cryptic as to be meaningless to anyone not associated with their particular cult, end with a pretty flounce. I noticed particularly that they never answer questions posed to gauge/ engage their empathy with moral issues.

Other people have been impressed by this lack of empathy and its reflection of sociopathic thinking - Biblical rules apply to celestial, but not josiah. I am interested in the opinion of the FJ-ers: how do you suppose that fundy-ism operates to eradicate a person's sense of empathy?

To the twerpy fundy kid, if he posts again: why won't you answer direct questions with concrete responses, such as the hypothetical about a raped sister? Were you explicitly taught by your older co-religonists to lie when engaging with non-believers, or are you too cowardly? As I said, giving deliberately oblique answers and refusing to back up assertions with evidence (your comment about teh ghey being caused by childhood indoctrination being a particularly egregious example) are not things an open-minded, honest person does in a debate. Your answers are too formulaic to be anything but a script or an instinctive reaction fundies have to being cornered without the tools (logic and evidence) to extricate yourself.

[Swamptribe]

In my experience, Fundamentalism removes an individuals ability to reason. (that is one of the criteria I use to define fundie) Sadly, many give up using critical thought willingly, instead of having it 'trained' into them from childhood. Fundies embrace a system of hard and fast, black and white rules. It does not matter that these rules are impractical, contradictory and unjust, but they remove the necessity of the adherent to reason for themselves. The rules are good, and come from their god, so to question them is to question god. This is why Fundamentalists become so defensive and 'flounce' or cry 'persecution' when they are confronted about the inconsistencies in their behaviors and belief system.

[formergothardite]

That's an interesting question RR. I'm not really sure of the answer. But I think a lot of it has to do with not actually knowing and being friends with the people you would be willing to kill. In some way, they have dehumanized gay people to the point where blithely discussing killing them in a horrible fashion doesn't bother them. Josiah doesn't even seem to grasp that wishing a painful death on someone who isn't hurting anyone shows hatred.

I bet he has been taught that college is horrible too. And what they won't tell him is that the real reason is that if you go there, you can become friends with the people you have been trained to hate and lose your hatred. Fundie parents are terrified of their children going to college because chances are they are going to find that they don't really believe what they have been taught that they believe. A faith that can be lost just by going to college, wasn't a real faith anyway, it was repeating what you have been told without thinking.

So IMO it comes down to teaching lies and that "those people" are the enemy and they aren't like us.. Along with keeping themselves in bubbles away from the horrible world where they might find out that gay people are just like them and the lies revealed. And so, and they would never admit it, fundies end up not viewing gay people or Muslim people or people who have had abortions as full humans so it isn't as hard to wish death on them.

It is also pretty obvious that Josiah has never been taught logic or debating skills. Most fundies haven't. Deep thinking is not really encouraged, just the appearance of deep thinking. Like Josiah and Raquel using Latin on their blogs. It makes them look like they are deep thinkers, but what they really write is pretty shallow.

[Renting with Raggles]

Fundies embrace a system of hard and fast, black and white rules. It does not matter that these rules are impractical, contradictory and unjust, but they remove the necessity of the adherent to reason for themselves.

This makes sense,but it still amazes me that people can just turn off the ability to perceive massive contradictions and total inability to apply their system in any meaningful way in reality.

I was listening this weekend to some fundie radio host give the Comfort script to the late Hitchens. The Hitch would make a good point and the fundie just ploughed along, not even acknowledging what Hitch had said. Who even does that in a conversation? It was so rude, josiah's not-so-original writing formula just reminded me of that.

So IMO it comes down to teaching lies and that "those people" are the enemy and they aren't like us.. Along with keeping themselves in bubbles away from the horrible world where they might find out that gay people are just like them and the lies revealed. And so, and they would never admit it, fundies end up not viewing gay people or Muslim people or people who have had abortions as full humans so it isn't as hard to wish death on them.

Absolutely.

[formergothardite]

The amount of anger that Josiah has showed, both on his blog and here, really is disturbing. Free Jingerians usually don't display that sort of hatred and anger unless it towards people who abuse and kill their children. The people here show way more compassion, love and understanding than fundies do. The people here are more like Jesus than Josiah and I am pretty sure that ticks him off. Having the "brood of vipers" be more Christ like than him has to be irritating.

[thoughtful]

This makes sense,but it still amazes me that people can just turn off the ability to perceive massive contradictions and total inability to apply their system in any meaningful way in reality.

It astounds me sometimes, too. But then I remember that full or partial isolation is part of the upbringing, and that can allow parents to indoctrinate children in a similar fashion to soldiers going to war.

It has always been part of that process to dehumanize the enemy, with propaganda, filthy slurs, etc.

Fundies just give it that extra twist that says "if they would only believe and behave exactly as we do, they could be saved." So, they can pat themselves on the back, imagining they are not really total bigots, that they really love and pity us, and that they have given us an "out."

Very scary stuff.

BTW, speaking of the dehumanizing enemies thing, I saw one of the most ironic examples of it again yesterday (have seen it many times). I often have TCM on in the background when I'm doing work. Yesterday they showed this short at some point:

http://www.myspace.com/video/bryan/the- ... n/31181378

Frank Sinatra explains to some little boys who are chasing one boy because they don't like his religion why they should show tolerance, and how they are acting like Nazis. He goes through lots of the usual arguments that would appeal to boys (and the audience) in 1945.

Great stuff, until he talks about US soldiers of various ethnic and religious backgrounds working together in war, to defeat those horrible "Japs."

And, in 1945, it appears that nobody -- not the writers, producers, Sinatra, or the audience -- saw the irony in that at all.

Fundies live in a world where they are fighting an imaginary war, and dehumanizing the Enemy is part of the process.

[VodouDoll]

I was listening this weekend to some fundie radio host give the Comfort script to the late Hitchens. The Hitch would make a good point and the fundie just ploughed along, not even acknowledging what Hitch had said. Who even does that in a conversation? It was so rude

Was that Christopher Hitchens and Todd Friel? Because if it is, that was seriously one of the most amazing things I've ever heard.

EZB0lLIcXIA

Hitchens dismantles Ray Comfort's Good Person Test and Todd is left floundering around like a moron (worse than he usually is, even). It is glorious.

[Sola]

You do not understand what love is. On this thread, you have stated that you would stone gays and bisexual. You ignored my questions about stoning rape victims but if you follow the Old Testament on stoning homosexuals, you must believe that rape victims should be stoned. You've also stated that you would not stand against slavery because the bible doesn't condemn it. That is NOT love. It's hatred. How can you not understand that?

I do not think that you have a sense of empathy for others. Several times, I've asked you to put yourself in the place of those that you would condemn but you haven't done so. Are you not able to do so or does it frighten you too much?

Would you believe that someone loved you who wanted to stone you for your religious beliefs?

^ Exactly. I could never, ever stone someone I loved, no matter what they had done. Josiahw, think about it, think about your mother. Now imagine you had to stone her, could you do it?

What you state is not love, that is hate.

[Renting with Raggles]

Was that Christopher Hitchens and Todd Friel? Because if it is, that was seriously one of the most amazing things I've ever heard.

Yes! It reminded me of an inverted fundieflouncestep dance. Friel asks a question, Hitchens gives reasoned answers that should affect Friel's next line of questioning in a normal conversation, Friel shoots out the same question again even though he has been given an answer. So by the end it just got to be bizarre -

F: So you're saying that you reject this wonderful gift of redemption that your creat-or gave you?

H: I'd have to because it is not a gift. Explains that logically, the xtian idea of vicarious redemption can't really be considered a gift; it's merely a contract forced on him without his consent for something he didn't do, the quality of his life is immaterial since others who suffer are bound by the same contract etc...

F: So you reject this wonderful gift of redemption that your creat-or gave you?

H; I don't consider it a gift. Explains again.

F: So you reject this wonderful gift of redemption...

Now if Friel had wanted to engage in a real debate with Hitchens, he would have addressed his concerns about the model vicarious salvation; he could refute Hitchens' argument. By ignoring Hitchens' answer, the debate has ceased, he has actually conceded to Hitch's point that redemption is not really a gift. But Friel can't even change his line of questions - that's something you would expect a high school newspaper reporter or debate team member to be able to attempt. I wondered if fundies just can't handle rational argument because they have always worked off undeviating scripts or whether they are explicitly told not to respond directly to unbelievers.

[celestial]

It astounds me sometimes, too. But then I remember that full or partial isolation is part of the upbringing, and that can allow parents to indoctrinate children in a similar fashion to soldiers going to war.

It has always been part of that process to dehumanize the enemy, with propaganda, filthy slurs, etc.

Scary indeed. There are many parallels between the way many fundies raise their kids and how kids were raised in Nazi Germany. Talk about "grooming children!"

[formergothardite]

Josiah seems to think that he is open minded, loving and Christ like. He has been so brainwashed that he can't even begin to comprehend how disturbing the things he says are. I do hope he gets over his anger and continues reading here. Maybe there is some hope for him.