Can People Be Born Homosexual?

[debrand]

aarondailey.net/2008/07/29/can-people-be-born-homosexual/

This struck me as interesting. The poster quotes RC Sproul:

We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners.â€

I tried to substitute other actions into that sentence. "We are not murderers because we kill people. We kill people because we murder. "

Because of that core belief, I believe that in a sense, it could be considered that people are born homosexual. But not only that–they are born sinners. Ephesians 2:3 says that we are “by nature children of wrath.†Homosexuality is not the only sin people are born with, but yeah, they are born homosexual because they are born sinners. The good news is that as through one man sin entered the world, the same is true on the positive side! The man Jesus Christ died, and through one man grace and salvation entered the world and righteousness is imputed upon those who are “born again.†The issue is not “Are we born homosexual?†It is “Are you born again?†If we are born again, we are not going to live according to what our flesh was born to do. We are going to return to what we were created to do. We were not created homosexual, just as we were not created sinners. Homosexuality is not something people were created for in God’s original plan.

I think that it is harder and harder for extremist to deny that homosexuality is a choice. Although, I don't think that it should matter either way. What business is it of anyone's what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms?

This does show that there are people who will find a way to find homosexuality wrong, even if they accept that the person can't help having a same sex desire.

He doesn't write what he thinks that the homosexual should do. Accepting Jesus seems to be his answer. Other actions that are considered sin can be stopped by simply not engaging in that activity. Homosexuality is part of who the person is. That means that the person is pretty much screwed no matter what they do or don't do.

[MamaJunebug]

Dear debrand. I always read the topic when I see you've started one!

:) So the following is said in supportive way, not critical:

No, you got it a little wrong. The actual substition would not read

"We are not murderers because we kill people. We kill people because we murder. "

it would read

"We are not murderers because we kill people. We kill people because we are murderers. "

The doctrine of original sin - held by Lutheran theology as well as Reformed - says we're gonna sin whether we want to or not. Because "it's just the way we are."

Not long after I got out of school I read up on E-prime, which was a little scheme in which the verb "to be" was to disappear from speech, writing and thought. At first I thought it just really cool because it eliminated all the passive voiceing that plagues writing. it also tightens up writing, and I love compact stories and essays.

But E-prime also makes you question exactly the core of your being. If you ARE a Christian, what does that mean? If you believe there IS only one way to a good afterlife - as Christians (and possibly Muslims[?]) do - how do you express that without using the verb "to be", as in, "There IS only one way...."

How do you rally armies without saying, "the other side ARE the bad guys! We ARE destined to destroy them!" The lack of the verb "to be" really pushes us into explanations, etc.

I'm getting way off track. Sorry.

When Christian leaders say "we sin because we are sinners" they refer to the original sin doctrine, as in, "We can't help ourselves. Sinning is our default setting."

Thus, this is wrong on several levels from a Christian p.o.v.:

The man Jesus Christ died, and through one man grace and salvation entered the world and righteousness is imputed upon those who are “born again.†The issue is not “Are we born homosexual?†It is “Are you born again?†If we are born again, we are not going to live according to what our flesh was born to do. OK, MJB here: this is BS. Our flesh was born to crave oneness with another human being and with God. We achieve the physical oneness through intercourse. I daresay the writer does not expect married heterosexuals to cease connubial bless because they are 'born again' (whatever that means). We are going to return to what we were created to do. We were not created homosexual, just as we were not created sinners. MjB Here: Yes, beanbrain, we WERE created sinners, at least you would say we were if you interpreted a couple dozen Scripture verses in a Reformed way - and isn't that what Sproul Sr. and Jr. are all about, reformed theology?. Homosexuality is not something people were created for in God’s original plan.

MJB here again - obviously, the author's logic is so flawed, and his/her understanding of Scripture and Christian doctrine so meager, that for anyone to accept the idea that "Homosexuality is not something people were created for in God’s original plan" as emerging from his/her ideas about the lack of original sin is unthinkable to the max.

Even from a traditional p.o.v. that believes in original sin, 'Homosexuality is not something people were created for in God’s original plan' doesn't work, as one can believe that queerness is a sin and being born sinners, some of us are going to indulge in that sin; OR that queerness is just the way some people are born and being born sinners, some of us are going to be heterosexual sinners and some of us are going to be homosexual sinners.

It's such a non-issue when you're brought up with it! I wish everybody could've had my loving mom, and our gay neighbors and my beloved, queer cousin.

ETA: And yes, I used the verb "to be" with impunity in my reply. And I use it carelessly everyday of my life. le sigh. The best-laid plans, as they say. :oops:

[debrand]

No offense taken. Actually, I thought I had written 'are murderers" :doh: Thanks for the correction.

[jericho]

Christians do not believe we were created sinners. We were created in God's perfect image. Sin came later and corrupted humanity and the world.

[formergothardite]

Oh yeah! Jericho, the one who would send single mothers and their children back to the early 1900's to work in the factories is back! Ever find a time period in America where your ideas work?

Free Jinger doesn't forget stupid people and their stupid ideas.

[jericho]

You are so welcoming. That was another thread. I told you I was done with it. This is a different topic.

[debrand]

Oh yeah! Jericho, the one who would send single mothers and their children back to the early 1900's to work in the factories is back! Ever find a time period in America where your ideas work?

Free Jinger doesn't forget stupid people and their stupid ideas.

:o

[formergothardite]

You are so welcoming. That was another thread. I told you I was done with it. This is a different topic.

Yeah you flounced from that one, but everyone should be reminded of what stupid things you believe so they can be prepared for what I am sure is going to be some great thoughts on being born gay.

Edited: She claimed I tricked her into saying it, but I just asked a question and she answered in a really stupid way. It's not my fault that history doesn't support her claims that the government isn't needed to help poor people.

[jericho]

Oh, you know my thoughts on homosexuality already?

[emmiedahl]

Oh yeah! Jericho, the one who would send single mothers and their children back to the early 1900's to work in the factories is back! Ever find a time period in America where your ideas work?

Thanks for reminding me! I was trying to remember which troll this was. I think it is relevant to keep in mind that a certain poster has strongly held ideas that are devastating to entire communities and not exactly based on fact. Especially since I can smell the homophobia train a-coming.

[emmiedahl]

Christians do not believe we were created sinners. We were created in God's perfect image. Sin came later and corrupted humanity and the world.

So God made people, and then He made sin, and then?

[formergothardite]

Oh, you know my thoughts on homosexuality already?

No, but judging from your other beliefs, they are bound to be something great.

[jericho]

No, but judging from your other beliefs, they are bound to be something great.

My other beliefs (that you know) are pro-life and limited government. Wow, I sound like such a lunatic. Those are such extreme views!

[wtfrenchtoast]

Christians do not believe we were created sinners. We were created in God's perfect image. Sin came later and corrupted humanity and the world.

It's the same thing, really. God created everything, yes? So he must have created sin, right? And he knows everything that has ever and will ever happen, so he knew from the get-go that billions of souls would be tortured for all eternity in the fiery pita of hell. So even though he's all powerful, and could presumably forgive anyone he wants and erase their sin, he came up with some convoluted sacrifice scheme that would only save a very small portion of the creation he loves so much. Cool guy, that God.

[jericho]

So God made people, and then He made sin, and then?

BTW, God didn't make sin He did make the condition of free-will which led to sin however.

And then???... the history of the world I guess.

[formergothardite]

My other beliefs (that you know) are pro-life and limited government. Wow, I sound like such a lunatic. Those are such extreme views!

Well they are when they aren't based in reality. When you claim to be all pro-life, then want the government to ignore poor people and THEN to top it all off your idea of an ideal time to send a poor single mom and her children is the early 1900's where they would live horrible lives working in the mills, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on homosexuality.

[emmiedahl]

BTW, God didn't make sin He did make the condition of free-will which led to sin however.

And then???... the history of the world I guess.

If you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he absolutely created sin whether directly or indirectly. And, as someone else pointed out, he created trillions of creatures with the plan to damn them. Nice guy!

[emmiedahl]

jericho, you are pro-life and pro-big government when it comes to abortion, but anti-life and anti-big government where it applies to your pocketbook. Keep it real, you want the government more involved in my uterus than it ever has been, and you would spend millions to keep a woman in prison but not hundreds to feed a child.

[formergothardite]

So Jericho, what are your thoughts on gay-marriage? Since you are all small-government, one would think you would be okay with it.

[CanadianHippie]

BTW, God didn't make sin He did make the condition of free-will which led to sin however.

And then???... the history of the world I guess.

History of the world

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[freejoytoo]

Christians do not believe we were created sinners. We were created in God's perfect image. Sin came later and corrupted humanity and the world.

But God created everything, right? That means He had to have created sin and as he is omniscient, He had to know exactly what would happen with it.

[debrand]

You can't have it both ways. Some Christians claim that atheists can't be moral without a law giver. Jericho claiming that god didn't make those laws because they contradict the point he or she is trying to make. Which is it? Did god make the rules that our universe is guided by or didn't he?

[jericho]

jericho, you are pro-life and pro-big government when it comes to abortion, but anti-life and anti-big government where it applies to your pocketbook. Keep it real, you want the government more involved in my uterus than it ever has been, and you would spend millions to keep a woman in prison but not hundreds to feed a child.

Nope. You haven't read my posts correctly. I want government out of the welfare business so it can be privatized and not abused. I am not for putting women in prison for abortion, only their doctors.

[jericho]

Well they are when they aren't based in reality. When you claim to be all pro-life, then want the government to ignore poor people and THEN to top it all off your idea of an ideal time to send a poor single mom and her children is the early 1900's where they would live horrible lives working in the mills, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on homosexuality.

You sure know how to spin things. I guess I should buy congress a time machine?

[formergothardite]

viewtopic.php?t=4675

Here is the link to the thread, people and skim it and decide if I am spinning things or not.