The Pearls and Cesar Millan

[ilovetchotchkes]

From freedictionary.com:

flooding [flud´ing]

in behavior therapy, a form of desensitization for the treatment of phobias and related disorders in which the patient is repeatedly exposed to highly distressing stimuli without being able to escape but without danger, until the lack of reinforcement of the anxiety response causes its extinction. In general, the term is used for actual exposure to the stimuli, with implosion used for imagined exposure, but the two terms are sometimes used synonymously to describe either or both types of exposure. Compare systematic desensitization.

*Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

Isn't this what the people did to the main character in Clockwork Orange?!

so basically what therapists do to OCD patients who have crippling phobias? i once saw something on tv where the woman basically "flooded" her patient, by showing her pictures of spiders, and then worked her way up to the woman holding a tarantula!

[breaker]

so basically what therapists do to OCD patients who have crippling phobias? i once saw something on tv where the woman basically "flooded" her patient, by showing her pictures of spiders, and then worked her way up to the woman holding a tarantula!

No, you're thinking of systematic desensitization, where exposure starts out small with something less triggering (such as pictures) and then gradually working their way up to something more difficult, like a real life spider. Patients who are being desensitized generally control the pace of the exposure themselves and aren't pressured or stressed (the point is actually to prevent them from becoming anxious). Flooding, by contrast, would be holding down someone with spider phobia in a tub full of tarantulas, and keeping them there until they stop struggling.

They are their own species, with needs and customs that are quite different from our own. Give dogs their dignity by treating them like dogs, not people.

That's true, but dogs aren't wolves either; a lot of evolution has taken place in the thousands of years they've been domesticated. You can treat your dog like a dog without believing all his actions stem from a desire to dominate you.

[BravaAmica]

From freedictionary.com:

flooding [flud´ing]

in behavior therapy, a form of desensitization for the treatment of phobias and related disorders in which the patient is repeatedly exposed to highly distressing stimuli without being able to escape but without danger, until the lack of reinforcement of the anxiety response causes its extinction. In general, the term is used for actual exposure to the stimuli, with implosion used for imagined exposure, but the two terms are sometimes used synonymously to describe either or both types of exposure. Compare systematic desensitization.

*Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

Isn't this what the people did to the main character in Clockwork Orange?!

Thank you!

And if I recall correctly, what they did in Clockwork Orange was aversion therapy: they would show him images of rape, mayhem and violence and induce vomitting, pain and discomfort.

[valsa]

As someone who has been desensitized to a phobia, I hate the thought of flooding being used on anyone or anything, especially animals who have no ability to understand what's happening.

I had a phobia of needles/shots up to a few years ago. I would cry and very nearly have a panic attack if I needed an injection or to get blood drawn. Then I donated a kidney, something which requires you to undergo a LOT of bloodwork beforehand. I got my blood drawn so many times that I gradually got over my phobia of needles*. I try to imagine how I would have felt if someone had just grabbed me, held me down, and poked me dozens of times with needles and it makes me nauseous to even think about it. I think I hate Cesar Millan.

* Weirdly enough, on my second day in the hospital post-donation, I had a really, really bad experience when they got the blood for my daily labs (I have bad veins and they got it out of my hands when I'd already blown 8 veins in my hands in that week alone- it hurt worse than my incision) and it immediately brought back the symptoms of my phobia. I got hysterical when they tried to get blood the next day but, when they got it without hurting me like it had the day before, I went back to being fine with needles.

[deelaem]

That's true, but dogs aren't wolves either; a lot of evolution has taken place in the thousands of years they've been domesticated. You can treat your dog like a dog without believing all his actions stem from a desire to dominate you.

Not sure what your point is here, since I never said that dogs were wolves. And if you pay attention to what Millan is doing, he does not assume the dog is always trying to dominate. You have to realize that the dogs on his show are exhibiting extreme behavior problems, not the run-of-the-mill things that are encountered daily. So you really can't assume that that is the way he treats all dogs.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Flooding, by contrast, would be holding down someone with spider phobia in a tub full of tarantulas, and keeping them there until they stop struggling.

Just reading that sentence made me have a hard time breathing. Good god, any other arachnophobes out there - can you imagine?

[breaker]

Not sure what your point is here, since I never said that dogs were wolves. And if you pay attention to what Millan is doing, he does not assume the dog is always trying to dominate. You have to realize that the dogs on his show are exhibiting extreme behavior problems, not the run-of-the-mill things that are encountered daily. So you really can't assume that that is the way he treats all dogs.

I mentioned wolves because Cesar's techniques are based on the premise of a "pack" observed in captive wolves, but which does not necessarily generalize to dogs and is therefore a dubious premise to work from.

Even though he's dealing with extreme cases on the show, he advocates dealing with everyday behavior using dominance theory. In his book he describes how to assure your status as the pack leader with every daily event micromanaged to make your own dominance clear -- you should walk first through doors, forbid it from urinating or smelling the ground without your permission during walks, etc. He even breaks down walks in a pie chart to show how much time should be allocated to walking as a pack vs sniffing the ground.

This page has some examples of the bizarre way in which he uses dominance theory as a catch all -- an over enthusiastic puppy, dog chasing a cat and even a dog obsessed with a light are all presumed to have dominance issues.

You said: "I am so tired of people putting Millan down for his techniques... What works on people will not necessarily work on dogs," implying that other training methods are using human psychology on dogs rather than dog psychology, which is completely untrue. The anthropomorphism of dogs is a separate issue to what training methodology produces results.

[BlackHawk]

>.> Okay, I don't see how you can compare Millan to the Pearls... he does no advocate beating a dog into submission. The kicks do look bad, I admit. That is a bit of his philosophy I did not carry over. But to compare one thing he does to a whole shit load of "Pearl Training"... this person who wrote the post must not know who the pearls actually are.

Dogs are dogs, people are people... yes you don't want to beat either, but dogs are based on a pack mentality. Perhaps not the same that you see in wolves, but closer to them then the independence you get in humans. The philosophy behind Millan's complete ideology is EDA, which has already been established here for Exercise, Discipline, Affection. If you take nothing else from Millan, take that. That does not break the spirit of a dog, that does not give you course to get a small plumbing line to beat them with, that will not kill your dog. Discipline for a "normal" dog is very simply being firm in your commands and expectations. Don't let them "get away" with not sitting for that treat if you ask them to sit. Your discipline there is making them sit before you give them the treat... such horrors. There is no beating, no breaking their spirit... just a clear expectation and a follow through.

No person or technique is perfect. Each one works differently for each person. I don't advocate all of Millan's techniques... but his over all message is about the dog and it makes sense. His overall message will not kill the dog, will not break their spirit, and does not involve beating them with something. That to me makes him completely different then the Pearls.

[godlytomatosoup]

With rats, I'm not sure if what I usually did qualifies as flooding or not: unless the rat was aggressive or defensive, my usual way of getting new pet rats used to me was to put them down my shirt for maybe half an hour at a time. They'd be surrounded by my scent, so you could call that flooding, but they were also in a dark, warm place with their feet on solid ground and a wall (my stomach) against them, all of which are comforting things to rats. So I'm not sure if that would qualify or not.

I never had to deal with an aggressive rat, but I did have one biter who bit either when he was scared or when he didn't know what he was biting (he came from a pet shop where the owner let children stick their fingers in the cage. Stupid idea.) Squeaking at him and not jerking my hand back worked.

Rats are very different from dogs and cats not just because they're less complex, but because their group structure is different. Dogs are pack animals, cats in the wild are lone hunters but they band together as ferals or pets, and rats live in large colonies whether in the wild or as pets. It's not nearly as structured as a dog pack, although there is still such a thing as an alpha rat.

[Constance Vigilance]

No, you're thinking of systematic desensitization, where exposure starts out small with something less triggering (such as pictures) and then gradually working their way up to something more difficult, like a real life spider. Patients who are being desensitized generally control the pace of the exposure themselves and aren't pressured or stressed (the point is actually to prevent them from becoming anxious).

This may be true for systematic densensitisation, but is not true for OCD treatment.

OCD is treated by exposure response prevention CBT. First the person with OCD writes down a hierarchy of things that scare them, from least=mild anxiety to most=full blown panic attack/terror/unthinkable. Then, starting with the least scary (but still scary) they are exposed to it and prevented from engaging in any of the behaviours they would normally engage in to make themselves feel safe (counting, hadwashing, rationalising, etc).

The point IS to make them anxious -- in some cases extremely so -- because the theory is, it isn't possible to maintain that level of anxiety for very long. And then each time they're subsquently exposed to it, their anxiety will go a little less high and come down a little more quickly (that's where the desensitisation comes in), until they're ready to move up to the next thing on the hierarchy.

This is part of the reason many people never recover from moderate to severe OCD -- when their brain is convinced that something is a terrifying, horrific danger, allowing themselves to be exposed to it is incredibly scary. Overcoming the terror programmed into you by your brain takes a lot of courage. For some people the fear is too ingrained and they no longer have the mental resources to overcome it. Other people (a lot of people) manage to get a little or a lot better.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. :)

[Terrie]

While I agree that dogs need to be treated as dogs, I don't think Milan is a good trainer. A good trainer teaches people to deal with their dogs, but many of Milan's techniques are based on his own innate abilities, which can't be taught. I have a strong preference for Patricia McConnell. She does a great job of explaining how things look from the dog's POV and how to communicate what you want to them. You ca read her blog at http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/.

[debrand]

The implication for humans is that if we use the dominance model for modifying behavior, we may need to continue with threat displays for the rest of the pet's life.

I don't know about Milan but some of the ways that I've heard to establish dominance over dogs would take away my enjoyment of having a pet.

For instance, I read that you should always make your dog do something to get affection. To make my life easier, I've taught my dogs to sit when I pet them. However, when we are walking, I often pet my dog's head. I would pay my dog far less attention, if we stopped to make her sit or lay down every single time I wanted to rub their heads.

We do make the dogs wait until we walk through the front door but that is because they tend to get excited and push past us after our walks.

[deelaem]

I mentioned wolves because Cesar's techniques are based on the premise of a "pack" observed in captive wolves, but which does not necessarily generalize to dogs and is therefore a dubious premise to work from.

Even though he's dealing with extreme cases on the show, he advocates dealing with everyday behavior using dominance theory. In his book he describes how to assure your status as the pack leader with every daily event micromanaged to make your own dominance clear -- you should walk first through doors, forbid it from urinating or smelling the ground without your permission during walks, etc. He even breaks down walks in a pie chart to show how much time should be allocated to walking as a pack vs sniffing the ground.

This page has some examples of the bizarre way in which he uses dominance theory as a catch all -- an over enthusiastic puppy, dog chasing a cat and even a dog obsessed with a light are all presumed to have dominance issues.

You said: "I am so tired of people putting Millan down for his techniques... What works on people will not necessarily work on dogs," implying that other training methods are using human psychology on dogs rather than dog psychology, which is completely untrue. The anthropomorphism of dogs is a separate issue to what training methodology produces results.

Whatever, honey. I guess my 20 years of training dogs for obedience, protection, tracking, and herding are no match for you.

[Terrie]

Personally, I find it significant that a large number of animal behavioral specialists have spoken out against Millan's techniques, including many people who specialize in treating aggression.

[breaker]

Whatever, honey. I guess my 20 years of training dogs for obedience, protection, tracking, and herding are no match for you.

OK.

So do you agree with Cesar that the dog is trying to dominate the light?