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The Pearls and Cesar Millan


Boogalou

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I have never really watched "The Dog Whisperer" and so knew little about the show, Cesar Millan, or his "training" techniques until this morning when I read this blog post (http://foreverinhell.com/wordpress/?p=2699) comparing his training methods to the Pearls'. Apparently, they are both quite horrible and favour fear, abuse and power struggles. So I was wondering what exactly Cesar's religious views are. Is he a fundamentalist or just an abusive jerk? Why do you think his abuse training methods are so much more mainstream and widely accepted than the Pears? This was so sad to me that there are people out here training their dogs like this everyday because that asshole has a TV show.

Just a note on the blog author. She used to post here (which is how I found her blog). Her dog, Muggsy, passed away and she has now adopted a new dog, Bo, and is in the process of training him.

Edited because AD is an HTML genius, thanks!

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Well, probably because the Pearl's teachings are based on religion (and beating with sticks), and Cesar's aren't. I'm fairly moderate when it comes to the topic of his methods; I would not use 99% of them myself, but I don't think they're quite as harmful as many people make them out to be. The dogs in Cesar's care (and the ones he works with) don't appear to fear him, but he certainly bases his teachings on dominance and positive punishment. Unlike Michael Pearl, Cesar advocates a different approach for different individuals. The Pearls believe all children just need to be beaten until their will is broken to be perfect.

Also, Cesar is far more charismatic than the idiot Pearls are. And I've never heard of dogs dying from the use of Cesar's methods, though it is possible it's happened.

I'm not defending his methods, I'm just trying to answer the question. I have some experience in the area of dog training, as I trained my Golden to her CDX obedience title, and I trained her as a certified Caring Canine Companion (qualified nursing home/hospital dog). Most dogs are so eager to please that they don't require Cesar's techniques, but people use them all the time these days which I think is a shame.

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I have never seen Cesar Millan strike a dog, ever. A touch or a sound or a redirection, yes. With the worst cases, I have seen him grab a dog and put it on the ground in a submissive position, a technique I have used with many dogs, and will continue to use when warranted.

I haven't read the blog, but I'd be surprised if there were any truth to any allegation of abuse on Cesar's part.

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I haven't heard this analogy used before but it's right on in terms of fear based learning and dominance (the patriarchy is replaced by the notion of a pack leader). Cesar isn't religious that I know of but he's quite new age-y, all about auras and energy and so forth if I remember correctly.

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I'm very active in the animal community and I've never heard anyone make any allegations that he strikes animals. He believes in becoming part of the pack and teaching dogs as they would do naturally. Not everyone agrees with it, but its not violent.

I didnt read the blog either... fantasy football needs to be set!

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Ok, I have to say I've never seen the show so I am going off what was said in the blog and this video:

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Which doesn't look like "redirective" taps to me. It's like people saying they hit their kids just to get their attention. And I am also quite biased against hime due to his sexism. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opini ... wanted=all

Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,†Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.†And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,†he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.â€
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Creaky, watch the video. I watched the video and while some of the 'kicks' appeared to not be kicks, others plainly were.

Booga, I think you can get a strikethrough by replacing 'strike' with 's'.

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The dominance thing, definitely works differently for different dogs. My extremely submissive female only needs a touch of firmness- a firm clear voice, that sort of thing (no G-d forbid physical "correction" or anything like that). My hell-kitten male on the other hand? before we knew any better, we tried some of the "dog Whisperer" methods (nothing physical except wrestling him to the ground, no kicks or neck grabs) , yeah, didn't work. Corgis don't take to dominance training well. Now, we just use a TON of positive reinforcement and its worked pretty well.

I've heard some controversy with Ceasar's methods, and the thing is, with him, I will say he genuinely GENUINELY cares about the dogs. I don't think he's bad, or evil , just EXTREMELY misguided in how the canine mind works. I'm afraid i can't say the same for the Pearls.

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The "taps" don't bother me so much of his flooding techniques when it comes to extremely phobic animals. Systematic desensitisation is much kinder and more effective but Cesar favors forcible exposure to the overwhelming stimulus until the dog "submits", which is obviously extremely traumatic to the animal. But that's psychological rather than physical trauma, so maybe it appears less awful to a TV audience. I don't know.

Disclaimer: I've only seen a handful of his shows, so he may have modified his techniques in the later seasons. I'm basing the above comment on episodes I saw in the first few seasons.

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Creaky, watch the video. I watched the video and while some of the 'kicks' appeared to not be kicks, others plainly were.

Booga, I think you can get a strikethrough by replacing 'strike' with 's'.

Thanks AD, I've got it fixed now. The video was kind of disturbing and I couldn't watch it all the way through. I did flip to end though where there is some interesting text.

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I haven't heard this analogy used before but it's right on in terms of fear based learning and dominance (the patriarchy is replaced by the notion of a pack leader). Cesar isn't religious that I know of but he's quite new age-y, all about auras and energy and so forth if I remember correctly.

I've thought of it. I think they are very similar, and genuinely think they have the magic answer.

Here are some parallels:

- perception of the learner as the opponent (trying to dominate, oppositional, bratty, bad, "red zone," etc.)

- using pain.

- using guilt and fear to persuade parents/dog owners that they are too soft and must ignore their own feelings to get tough.

- having a very shaky understanding of behavioral science, but thinking he's using it correctly.

- using outdated/misinterpreted ideas as his authority (the long-since-disproven theory that dogs need rigid hierarchy, in Millan's case -- the fundie view of fragments of the KJV, in Pearl's).

- making up his own terms and/or kind-sounding euphemisms, to conceal cruel practice.

- making mountains out of molehills, to make confrontations that don't need to happen.

- claiming that harmful actions are not harmful, as long as one is calm and acting authoritative.

- claiming a unique and radical way of doing things, which is really just crappy, mean, old-fashioned technique glossed over with fancy language.

Cesar absolutely does use pain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI

Those are not nudges, they are kicks. And they are not needed, even if they were nudges -- repositioning a dog never needs to be done physically. I know dozens of trainers who never need any of that, and do just fine.

He chokes, he strangles, he wrestles, he provokes, and I have been told that he uses a shock collar.

If you know canine body language, and watch him work with dogs with the sound off, you can see much more than if you are lulled by the voiceover and his self-narration, explaining his perception of what he is doing.

More here:

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/

Listening to Cesar supporters is, for me, very much like reading the posts of fundies who come here and shit on the rug, or love the Duggars. I can't help thinking "how can they not see it?"

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Flooding is very controversial, but it does work for some animals. I would NEVER use flooding on dogs, cats or birds. However, I have always used a method of flooding to tame young rats (never older rescues). It works on the basis that rattie minds cannot sustain a fear response for more than 20 minutes at a time. You keep your hands on the baby constantly - gently - for 20 - 25 minutes at a time. It usually only takes a couple of these sessions for the rat to realise you mean no harm and become eager to spend time with you. Rats, however intelligent they are, are nowhere near as complex as dogs, cats and birds.

I'm mentioning dogs, cats and birds because they are the animals I have worked with and have a decent knowledge of.

The thing I hate about Cesar's methods are that people apply them to animals other than dogs... the number of times I have heard people assert that they tried to teach their screaming, biting parrot that they're 'top dog' by holding it down like Cesar is horrifying, both because the idea of dominance in birds is a very outdated concept, and because holding a terrified, angry bird down is basically torture as far as the bird can tell.

Or, they apply the methods to dogs who don't need it, like pushing the dogs down for the slightest mistake, or giving them a corrective touch just for doing harmless doggie things that Cesar doesn't give corrections for.

It's not Cesar's fault that this happens, but I hate that it does.

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I got so caught up in comparing Millan to Pearl, I forgot to answer the OP's question.

A search showed some evidence that Millan is a practicing Catholic, but, y'know, it's the Internet.

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Flooding is very controversial, but it does work for some animals. I would NEVER use flooding on dogs, cats or birds. However, I have always used a method of flooding to tame young rats (never older rescues). It works on the basis that rattie minds cannot sustain a fear response for more than 20 minutes at a time. You keep your hands on the baby constantly - gently - for 20 - 25 minutes at a time. It usually only takes a couple of these sessions for the rat to realise you mean no harm and become eager to spend time with you. Rats, however intelligent they are, are nowhere near as complex as dogs, cats and birds.

That's a good point, although I'm wondering if flooding applies where a fear isn't learned. The baby rats might have an innate fear of human handling but that fear hasn't been conditioned through repetitive traumatic interaction, which the older rescues might have -- hence their need for different techniques. Please correct me if I'm wrong cause I don't have a lot of experience with those little guys.

Personally I haven't heard of flooding working for a genuinely phobic animal. The worst example I saw of Cesar using it was on a dog who was terrified of being groomed, by forcing a comb through its fur until it was hysterical enough to bite him. That's not going to produce good long term results; if anything, the dog's fear will intensify.

To angle back on topic, there's an element of patriarchal authority in how he deals with those sort of issues, I suppose, in that every bad behavior is seen as a kind of defiance. I guess to the Pearls you're either defying the headship or defying the Lord.

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That's a good point, although I'm wondering if flooding applies where a fear isn't learned. The baby rats might have an innate fear of human handling but that fear hasn't been conditioned through repetitive traumatic interaction, which the older rescues might have -- hence their need for different techniques. Please correct me if I'm wrong cause I don't have a lot of experience with those little guys.

You are absolutely right. The flooding process works on the rats in such a positive way precisely because they aren't phobic. You're simply overcoming their natural instinct to fear larger animals, which is easy to do when you show them that you're not a threat.

The technique also works on wild Rattus rattus, also known as Black Rats or Ship Rats. I used it myself on a wild baby I rescued with enormous success, and it was also the technique used in a R. rattus domestication project in the UK.

I've never used the technique on older rats or rats who have been abused by people, so I'm not sure how much it effects them. I would think the result would be a phobic, nervous rat who bites and doesn't trust humans.

Sorry to derail.

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"Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,†Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.†And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,†he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.†--from the NY times piece

I just got rid of Cesar Milan's book or I would go get quotes from there...it's been a long time since I read it, but Cesar says that the Mexico and the United States treat people and pets really diffferently.

One of his examples was with his marriage. His wife Illusion was born in the United States, he had to cut way down on the macho, patriarchial ways he learned on the farm in Mexico because she wouldn't put up with them. They separated during that time but once he became a "calm submissive" leader (his terminology for what a good pack leader is), they got back together. But they just filed for divorce a year or so ago, so evidently Cesar couldn't keep his patriarchy under control.

My own husband used Cesar Millan against me. I have depression/anxiety, so anytime my dog didn't behave up to Charles' standards was because I was being too emotional and just being my dog's friend instead of his leader. I suppose any control freak guy will pick up on whatever is available to use against you, but Cesar's ready-made patriarchy handed to him on a platter didn't help.

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I've worried that Cesar is Scientologically inclined, since some of his first clients and I think boosters were Will and Jada Smith. *shudder*

A trusted friend recommended Cesar to me when I was trying to control an out of control Labbie. She loaned me Cesar's very first DVD. If you're interested in training a dog well, here are the basics:

Give them Exercise (so many middle-American folks skip this, and especially with young dogs or bred-for-work breeds like Labs and Terriers) - wear them out,

and give them Discipline (they are members of the family and must be expected to honor the Rules, Boundaries and Limitations you set. Cute as it is to see them settle down in your La-Z-Boy, if you want your chair for yourself, Set the Rule, Enforce the Boundary and Be Consistent with the LImitations. People on chairs, dogs on floor)

and give them Affection, then. Love 'em up good. But remember that it comes last, after the Exercise, after the Discipline.

Remember EDA (Exercise, Discipline and Affection in that order) and that Discipline simply means setting and being consistent with Rules, Boundaries and Limitations, and you and your dog will do fine and thank Cesar for it.

Somebody sent me to his kicking video and I was dismayed beyond belief. Stick with the basics, ignore the rest. EDA, RBL.

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Remember EDA (Exercise, Discipline and Affection in that order) and that Discipline simply means setting and being consistent with Rules, Boundaries and Limitations, and you and your dog will do fine and thank Cesar for it.

I used to watch The Dog Whisperer quite a lot. I didn't always agree with Cesar's viewpoints, but I do believe that he really does love dogs. He has saved many animals that otherwise would have been put to sleep because they were considered dangerous and un-adoptable. I've never seen any of his dogs cower in fear of him. I've heard him time and again tell people that discipline is not to be confused with punishment, and that you should never respond in anger toward your animal, but rather be calm and assertive, and patient.

However, I think he has a huge ego, and would be hard to live with as a life partner.

I agree with the basics outlined above. I don't equate Cesar with the Pearls at all, because I've never heard of Cesar beating a dog, causing a dog injury, or otherwise enjoying inflicting pain on another living creature. He's far from perfect, but I don't think he's a psychopath (which is how I view the Pearls). Also in his favor -- he seems to deeply love his children and truly want the best for them.

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Thughtful, you said it far better than I ever could. I just really don't think violence is a necessary part of training dogs. And all this stuff about never responding to your dogs in anger but disciplining them calmly and OTHER people hurting their dogs because they didn't follow his message correctly reeks of what the Pearls teach.

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You are absolutely right. The flooding process works on the rats in such a positive way precisely because they aren't phobic. You're simply overcoming their natural instinct to fear larger animals, which is easy to do when you show them that you're not a threat.

The technique also works on wild Rattus rattus, also known as Black Rats or Ship Rats. I used it myself on a wild baby I rescued with enormous success, and it was also the technique used in a R. rattus domestication project in the UK.

I've never used the technique on older rats or rats who have been abused by people, so I'm not sure how much it effects them. I would think the result would be a phobic, nervous rat who bites and doesn't trust humans.

Sorry to derail.

What is "flooding"?

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From freedictionary.com:

flooding [flud´ing]

in behavior therapy, a form of desensitization for the treatment of phobias and related disorders in which the patient is repeatedly exposed to highly distressing stimuli without being able to escape but without danger, until the lack of reinforcement of the anxiety response causes its extinction. In general, the term is used for actual exposure to the stimuli, with implosion used for imagined exposure, but the two terms are sometimes used synonymously to describe either or both types of exposure. Compare systematic desensitization.

*Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.

Isn't this what the people did to the main character in Clockwork Orange?!

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I am so tired of people putting Millan down for his techniques. It all stems from the rampant anthropomorphism that so many pet owners are guilty of these days. What works on people will not necessarily work on dogs. They are their own species, with needs and customs that are quite different from our own. Give dogs their dignity by treating them like dogs, not people.

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