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American Theocracy?


Soldier of the One

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How much impact do you think Dominionism has on US politics?

Do you realistically think that the US could ever become a full-blown theocracy?

If so, how limited do you think the rights of women and sexual minorities would be? Do you expect the introduction of 'Biblical' law?

In short: how afraid should one be?

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I don't think we would ever become a full-blown theocracy.

I think the thing that I fear most is a chipping-away, similar to Roe vs. Wade (all the states where there are few providers or where the provider is flown in from another state, mandatory notification laws/waiting periods/ultrasounds, etc) where something sounds like a harmless idea that leads to another and another...

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I don't think the US as a whole would be a theocracy.

The South? It would try its hardest, but even then, not a full-blown theocracy. It would chip away and chip away at the rights of women and sexual (and ethnic) minorities, as much as federal law would allow.

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There is/was something called Christian Exodus wherein fundamentalist Christians were supposed to move to South Carolina, take over the state government, establish a theocracy, and secede from the U.S. If memory serves, it started in the '90s and some people did uproot their lives and move to S.C. I have no idea how active the movement currently is.

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How much impact do you think Dominionism has on US politics?

Do you realistically think that the US could ever become a full-blown theocracy?

If so, how limited do you think the rights of women and sexual minorities would be? Do you expect the introduction of 'Biblical' law?

In short: how afraid should one be?

1. The patriachal system is still in effect in many ways, but in general, outside of some pockets of the US, mainly in the southeast, not a big impact. I think we still have a culture that is slightly misogynist.

2. Anything is possible, but I honestly doubt it. Despite the attempts to "get God back in schools and the government" (where he never was-at least not in the fundie versions-if you believe God as an omni-being, I'm sure he is around even without stone tablets of the Ten Commandments or Bible Studies in the classroom), religious freedom is still a major part of our being. I personally think this country was founded more on the principle of religious freedom than it was on Judeo-Christian values, especially when one learns their real history and sees that most were deists and not necessarily Christians.

3. If it did become a theocracy, which I very highly doubt, I think the rights of everyone except white, wealthy, Evangelical, Fundamentalist Christians would be very limited. I think Biblical law would be enacted if it did ever become a theocracy.

Depending on how had the power at the time, I believe the lives of women would be horrific and likely worse than places like Saudi Arabia. I could honestly picture some parents locking their infant daughters away, only letting mom and sister siblings around her-no brothers except young ones for her to raise. Then dad gets a husband for her and presents her to the man at the altar for marriage. After marriage, she is kept to the house, never allowed out, only used to make babies and give him pleasure with no life allowed of her own. She had no sexual feelings of her own and he is not to try and please her in bed, she has to please him alone. Her feelings in any way shape or form would not matter. If she dies giving birth, he just gets a new wife. He could beat her mercilessly and kill her and blame it on her being a bad wife and get away with it. In fact, he's probably allowed to beat her for punishment if she disobeys or he does not consider her submissive enough. Divorce would be forbidden. She could never be educated and would never be allowed to have any sort of job.

The education of white Christian children would be dismal and science would be entirely Creationism. I think some people would re-enact slavery laws and the anyone who is not white would be subject to a life of servitude with no pay. Child labor laws would disappear, unions dismantled, the safety nets we have in place (food stamps, welfare, social security, disability, unemployment) would be demolished and people will starve-literally. The public school system would disappear and many children will become illiterate. Children of any skin color except pure white would not be allowed to have an education at all most likely. Can’t educate them there slaves, might start thinking too much and realize this life sucks. I believe we would plummet into a second world country, if not a third world one and our spot as a superpower would disappear within a generation.

4. I am not very worried because as I said above, I think the majority of people in this country honestly don't want religion in the schools or government, even many evangelical Christians I know don't want that. However those Christians did not have a SOTDRT education with Creationism and Revisionist history bs and as such, they do not really believe that stuff. Even most Christians who sort of believe in Creation still believe in aspects of evolution and believe it to be a God-created design-that God created humans and creatures of this Earth to be able to change and adapt. I also think most of the ones who want into government to change the laws are not intelligent enough to do so (no offense). Breeding isn't enough and not every child of these families will tow the party line, that's a guarantee. I am more than 99.9% sure that at least a couple of the Duggar and Bates children will not have very many, if any children and will go mainstream in our society. And their education is sadly dismal and marching in and trying to change laws that are set for a reason (i.e. the "personhood" amendment) often fail because too many people, even their fellow Christians, are against measures that would endanger the life of a woman for a fetus that is not viable. Even some virulent pro-life Christians I know would allow abortions to save the mom's life or to keep an infant from suffering if necessary. Too many of their fellow Christians outside of the Gothard/VF boxes also use some form of birth control and don't want to be forced to have child after child to agree to a ban of contraceptives.

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No because the population is getting more liberal which is why the far right is stepping up efforts to set us back a 100 years more than ever. They know that this could be their last chance to have this kind of control.

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American Theocracy = my deepest fears come true. There has never been a successful, peaceful theocratic government. I simply can't figure out why some people want that, other than they think that Christianity is "special". :roll:

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I don't care how likely it is that the US will ever become a full-blown theocracy. In my view, ANY intrusion into government by religion--any religion--is something to be feared and guarded against.

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I may not be qualified to speak on the subject, being from Australia, but I believe that an overall theocracy could not happen. There are still too many liberals and non-Christians in the USA for the Christian fundamentals to ever gain total power. I do think, however, that there are certain parts of the USA where the evangelicals are greater in number, and therefore have the numbers to vote one of their own into power. It does worry me that there are a growing number of evangelicals in the White House. We have a hung parliament in Australia at the moment, and it means that the party in power has to do a lot compromising of their values in order to get bills passed. I can see a situation that there would be sufficient numbers of evangelicals in government that would make it very difficult for any party to pass laws that are not "biblical", and we end up with situations like the "personhood" debate.

Totalitarian regimes do not usually develop overnight. They start with a very gradual stripping of rights - we think it's minor at the beginning, but later on, start to become aware of how much has been lost. Many of the European Jews were caught out in this way. Initially, all the laws against them were uncomfortable but not horrific. As time went on, the restrictions became worse and worse until it became clear where Germany was heading. And then, for many, it was too late. I don't think that the US would get as far as that, but certainly many states are at risk of having significant erosion of their rights.

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If America became a theocracy, it would be like the Republic of Gilead; only Calvinistic, intensely harsh, more bloodthirsty, highly antisemitic and brutally wiping out all other religions, children could be executed if they disobeyed their parents etc. Perhaps they would be back racial, religious and ethnic stereotypes of minorities.

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How much impact do you think Dominionism has on US politics?

Do you realistically think that the US could ever become a full-blown theocracy?

If so, how limited do you think the rights of women and sexual minorities would be? Do you expect the introduction of 'Biblical' law?

In short: how afraid should one be?

An interesting question. I think this is largely to do with economics (there's a surprise) ;)

During "bust" periods of capitalism, people flee to certainties as they perceive them. Got no money, but God loves you (and hates the other guys). Got no money, and it's the brown people/Jews/women/immigrants/whoever's fault. They are searching for comfort, reassurance this is fixable, and someone to blame.

So I reckon the US, under present conditions, could become a government with theocratic features. Strongly doubt a full blown theocracy is in the picture right now, however.

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I'm torn on the issue. If a charismatic leader arose who could speak fundie language than there is the possibility that sections of the south could try to become a theocracy. However, that would take the south breaking away from the rest of America and I don't see that happening. The fundies that we discuss don't have the ability to fight a war with trained troops. Plus, there are many people in the southern US who aren't extremists.

My fear is the gradual stripping away of rights. Did you guys know that The National Defense Act authorizes the president to hold a US citizen indefinitely without a trial or charges?

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As y'all know, I live in South Carolina. I am a secular Jew from parts up North. The people actually like me here. But I never have been able to start much of a social life, not that I was trying. This is my last week here. There are so many nice things so say about this area. It is truly beautiful. The hospitality, when offered is really quite lovely. The longer I have stayed, the less careful the people are about sugar coating their feelings about certain things.

I actually think that these folks could secede from the Northern government in a heartbeat. They would be quite comfortable forming a theocratic government and a tiered society based on ethnicity. Because so much of my area was endowed be Bernard Baruch and because Charleston is not far way, I think the the antisemitism would take a long time to root here, if it ever could. I am thinking that other Southern states like Alabama would have stronger issues with Jews. Black people would be "well treated" as long as they knew their place. They currently have no place in their society for Muslims and I think that would get way worse. Asian folks would be tolerated if they went to their own areas after the work day and they embraced Christianity. This is not much different from the way things are here already. The only difference is that the social structure that already exists would be institutionalized and codified. This area sees itself as hyper patriotic. I would expect the Citadel to become a real military academy to ensure a strong military force.

After living in this area for the last two years, it is easy to see how close the folks here are to slipping right back to pre-civil war lifestyles. Even some of the African American people who have been in the same spot, serving the same families as they did before emancipation are ony a step away from accepting this. It is a very nteresting dynamic.

One of the biggest things I learned is that the Civil War never really ended. The people here are so religious that they could easily be swayed by a theocratic leadership who would restore the old order.

It has been a great experience and I am glad that I spent time here. I am glad to have been able to care for the folks of South Carolina. It has enriched me in ways that I am sure I do not even know just yet. But it is time to go.

Yes, there are parts of the United States that could easily slip into a Christian Theocracy. It would not even be a big leap.

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As y'all know, I live in South Carolina. I am a secular Jew from parts up North. The people actually like me here. But I never have been able to start much of a social life, not that I was trying. This is my last week here. There are so many nice things so say about this area. It is truly beautiful. The hospitality, when offered is really quite lovely. The longer I have stayed, the less careful the people are about sugar coating their feelings about certain things.

I actually think that these folks could secede from the Northern government in a heartbeat. They would be quite comfortable forming a theocratic government and a tiered society based on ethnicity. Because so much of my area was endowed be Bernard Baruch and because Charleston is not far way, I think the the antisemitism would take a long time to root here, if it ever could. I am thinking that other Southern states like Alabama would have stronger issues with Jews. Black people would be "well treated" as long as they knew their place. They currently have no place in their society for Muslims and I think that would get way worse. Asian folks would be tolerated if they went to their own areas after the work day and they embraced Christianity. This is not much different from the way things are here already. The only difference is that the social structure that already exists would be institutionalized and codified. This area sees itself as hyper patriotic. I would expect the Citadel to become a real military academy to ensure a strong military force.

After living in this area for the last two years, it is easy to see how close the folks here are to slipping right back to pre-civil war lifestyles. Even some of the African American people who have been in the same spot, serving the same families as they did before emancipation are ony a step away from accepting this. It is a very nteresting dynamic.

One of the biggest things I learned is that the Civil War never really ended. The people here are so religious that they could easily be swayed by a theocratic leadership who would restore the old order.

It has been a great experience and I am glad that I spent time here. I am glad to have been able to care for the folks of South Carolina. It has enriched me in ways that I am sure I do not even know just yet. But it is time to go.

Yes, there are parts of the United States that could easily slip into a Christian Theocracy. It would not even be a big leap.

Wow. I have lived in SC my whole life (save 3 years in NC), in all four major metropolitan areas (well, for SC) and the small towns in between, and I don't know WHAT you're talking about. Well, I take that back. The Upstate is mostly run by Bible-thumpers ( and a surprising number of fundy-type Catholics), that's for sure. They could rocket off into the Fundy State of America any minute, and it'd be OK by me. But I think what you are describing must be some form of redneckism that is a) very, very thinly spread here, so much so as not to constitute a majority threat anyplace but a few dirt roads in maybe Pickens County and b) roundly laughed at, dismissed, and looked at as an extreme embarrassment by 99.9999% of South Carolinians. And by dismissed, I mean "Oh shit, there is another racist redneck; now we are going to hear from the whole rest of the world about how ALL of us and our WHOLE state is like that." And that is most emphatically untrue.

Very respectfully, I don't mean to deny you your experiences, but I think it takes more than two years here to get the true vibe. My experience of 51+ years is vastly , vastly different. Not everyone is religious; those who are aren't all Christian; those who are Christian aren't all fundy. I live in a majority African-American area and work in a workplace that is about 1/3 African-American, and I've asked co-workers about racism. None of them think it's a problem, except perhaps when it comes to getting stopped at night by a state trooper--that's the only issue any of my nonwhite friends ever seem to have. And I just don't know what to say about your opinion on the Citadel. Do you know that many, many of its students are not from SC, not from the South, not from this country? And there are African-Americans, Latinos and Asians in the student body too? Have you been there? It's not a fortress. The artillery and other crap lying about probably don't even work. The Citadel would not last a minute if the planes from the USAF in North Charleston, or the Marines from Beaufort, needed a practice target.

As for the Civil War, absolutely that is more a public focus than I'd like. In this area, the Civil War period is the primary basis for tourism, and thus a huge economic fact, so of course you hear people nattering on about Fort Sumter and the Blockade and all that stuff. But you know the comment I hear most that relates in any way to the Civil War? "I wish people from off (generally meaning the north) would leave us the hell alone when they don't know what they're talking about." I agree with you that SC is full of very patriotic people, but I would argue that a huge majority of them are patriotic towards the US, not towards their region. They don't want to leave here; they don't want people coming in to tell them they are all backward and doing things wrong (why do people think it's OK to insult the South? We generally have better manners than that); but they would not think of taking any action to separate themselves from the greater US. I would welcome more specifics about the areas you're talking about; as I said, I've lived all over the state and can't think where other than the extreme northwest corner these nests of new revolutionaries are located. Honestly, I hope I don't come off as rude; but everyone I know howls with laughter at the thought of that douchebag who wanted the fundies to move here and start a separate country. Now Texas.....that's a whole 'nother matter. ;)

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Wow. I have lived in SC my whole life (save 3 years in NC), in all four major metropolitan areas (well, for SC) and the small towns in between, and I don't know WHAT you're talking about. Well, I take that back. The Upstate is mostly run by Bible-thumpers ( and a surprising number of fundy-type Catholics), that's for sure. They could rocket off into the Fundy State of America any minute, and it'd be OK by me. But I think what you are describing must be some form of redneckism that is a) very, very thinly spread here, so much so as not to constitute a majority threat anyplace but a few dirt roads in maybe Pickens County and b) roundly laughed at, dismissed, and looked at as an extreme embarrassment by 99.9999% of South Carolinians. And by dismissed, I mean "Oh shit, there is another racist redneck; now we are going to hear from the whole rest of the world about how ALL of us and our WHOLE state is like that." And that is most emphatically untrue.

Very respectfully, I don't mean to deny you your experiences, but I think it takes more than two years here to get the true vibe. My experience of 51+ years is vastly , vastly different. Not everyone is religious; those who are aren't all Christian; those who are Christian aren't all fundy. I live in a majority African-American area and work in a workplace that is about 1/3 African-American, and I've asked co-workers about racism. None of them think it's a problem, except perhaps when it comes to getting stopped at night by a state trooper--that's the only issue any of my nonwhite friends ever seem to have. And I just don't know what to say about your opinion on the Citadel. Do you know that many, many of its students are not from SC, not from the South, not from this country? And there are African-Americans, Latinos and Asians in the student body too? Have you been there? It's not a fortress. The artillery and other crap lying about probably don't even work. The Citadel would not last a minute if the planes from the USAF in North Charleston, or the Marines from Beaufort, needed a practice target.

As for the Civil War, absolutely that is more a public focus than I'd like. In this area, the Civil War period is the primary basis for tourism, and thus a huge economic fact, so of course you hear people nattering on about Fort Sumter and the Blockade and all that stuff. But you know the comment I hear most that relates in any way to the Civil War? "I wish people from off (generally meaning the north) would leave us the hell alone when they don't know what they're talking about." I agree with you that SC is full of very patriotic people, but I would argue that a huge majority of them are patriotic towards the US, not towards their region. They don't want to leave here; they don't want people coming in to tell them they are all backward and doing things wrong (why do people think it's OK to insult the South? We generally have better manners than that); but they would not think of taking any action to separate themselves from the greater US. I would welcome more specifics about the areas you're talking about; as I said, I've lived all over the state and can't think where other than the extreme northwest corner these nests of new revolutionaries are located. Honestly, I hope I don't come off as rude; but everyone I know howls with laughter at the thought of that douchebag who wanted the fundies to move here and start a separate country. Now Texas.....that's a whole 'nother matter. ;)

You are correct, I am serving in a very rural area. Certainly this may color my point of view. I did not state in any way that Southern folk have bad manners. Quite the opposite. I have found South Carolinians to be polite to a tee. The thing is that my work puts me in a position to see folks when they struggle to keep their proper face on and I have heard what is underneath. The patriotism is most certainly for the USA and not for the Confederacy. It is for the USA as a Christian country that is very tolerant of other cutures because they are so very polite and civilized.

I came here to serve these poor people (and by extension some very wealthy and influential people.) I am glad that I did. I will consider many of these folks to be my friends forever. And they come from many walks of life. However, I would never mention to them that I doubt the existence of god, that I have no problem with same gender marriage, that I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that people are best off staying in their "place".

I am saying that the majority of people that I have met would be comfortable in a Theocracy. I do not think that there would be slavery per se, but there is still avery strong sense of staying in one's own place at the end of the day. Working together and learning together is a different thing than living together. Except during tourist season, the only places that are integrated in patronage are Walmart, Chick-fil-A and the Mall. If a family of color patronizes a place that is clearly all white, they are treated politely and appropriately. Considering that this is a low population area, there are at least 11 private Christian Academies for students whose families are able to afford it. My workplace is not unique in that it begins the day with a Christian prayer. (It is a private business that takes lots of government money) It is not mandatory and so it is legal. This is common in this part of the country. Not so much in other areas.

The thing is that the religious part of life is so much a part of life here that making it a Theocracy would not initially make a big dent in the way that life is lived. I agree that for security, SC would need to align itself with some other southern states whose ideas are less....tolerant...like Texas and Arkansas and Mississippi.

By the way, I do not think there will be a secession and a new Confederacy. I just think that Theocracy would be easily accepted in this part of the country. I agree that the Citadel is currently not a true military presence. However, in my fantasy of "what if", it might provide a starting point. My true fear is that pockets of folks, not only in the south, but also in states like Ohio and Missouri, there are enough people who would be comfortable with Theocracy to allow it to inch its way in. In many ways, our current election is about this very thing. The Republican party is struggling to define itself. Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich are the secular choices. The Christian choices are making a lot of noise and getting concessions from the secular choices. It is fascinating to watch.

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Yes, you did emphasize that folks here have good manners, a small thing people pride themselves on. I am sorry you have been in an area where you don't feel it's OK to mention that you don't believe in God or that you do favor same-gender marriage. It's just not true throughout the state. If it were, I know a lot of folks--atheists (unlike me) and ebil libruls (just like me)--who would have been run off a long time ago. As it is, people discuss, no one convinces the other one--but no one is afraid to say what they think.

I disagree that the majority would be comfortable in a theocracy. I think you're right to believe this may be true in pockets where fundies dominate. And yes, this is a very religious state. But a not inconsiderable number of Christians here are mainline protestants who don't adopt the church-as-state model advocated by the fundies. Hell, the Lutherans think the Baptists have it all wrong, and the Baptists think the Presbyterians are going to hell, and so on. So how could we ever agree with a theocratic state that isn't based on our personal little denomination's strictures? I might think it'd be a lovely idea, my state being run by the ELCA-SC Synod. But what if they got voted out next time and the South Carolina Baptist Convention came to power? God help the Lutherans, who have wine with their communion every week. There's just too much nuance and suspicion. If Christianity were a monolith, perhaps. But it isn't, and for reasons like the possibility of a theocracy, I'm glad it isn't.

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Wow, these answers and thoughts have been really interesting (and sometimes disturbing) to read. Thanks for sharing and pitching in! :)

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The C street gang has been, and continues to work hard at moving towards theocracy, its one of their stated goals.

The C street gang? who are they?

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