Saudi Man gets 2,080 Lashes for raping daughter.

[tabitha2]

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... d-daughter

Call me cynical but i bet the punishment was for the drugs mainly.I wonder how they are going to be spaced out?

[doggie]

hope she does not have to marry him or go to jail.

[Kitty]

somehow, I don't think 2,080 lashes over the course of 13 years is going to do much.

I bet the lashes were over the rape, but I think that he should get the lashes all at once. Oh, wait, he'll die? Oops. Too bad, the world doesn't need assholes like him. At least he'll be locked up for 13 years in a Saudi prison. Too bad rapists here in the US don't get that treatment.

Of course, you'd actually have to be convicted, and I'm well aware of how difficult it is for someone to get convicted over there. I hope his daughter isn't being punished for anything :(

[emmiedahl]

My concern is that the daughter will be punished. Women who are raped usually get larger punishments than the rapist over there, don't they?

[jaelh]

My concern is that the daughter will be punished. Women who are raped usually get larger punishments than the rapist over there, don't they?

not in undisputed "clearly" rape cases.

kitty, it's actually pretty easy to be convicted "over there" - much the same as "over here", it very much depends on how much money and power you have as to wether you can beat the charged. Wouldn't want to be a Pakistani migrant worker accused of rape. You could well be going down faster than a lead ballon.

[emmiedahl]

This woman here was kidnapped and gang-raped, then sentenced to lashing, then to even more because she talked to the press about it http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast ... index.html This stuff happens all the time over there and even if the government does not punish her, the family might do something because of the honor issue.

[Patsy]

not in undisputed "clearly" rape cases.

cite sources plz

[jaelh]

cite sources plz

I phrased that badly.

Emmie asked a question - seems to me it was meant as a rhetorical question (see second post). I am more than willing to admit that women in Saudi get a shithouse deal; and yes - there are serious problems with how rapes are tried. as I understand it (by basis here is discussions with friends and those who've lived in Saudi) that yes; there are extreme cases where everything goes badly, but most rape cases are not as sensationalist as reported and with family support women aren't necessarily going to suffer. The reporting in the west, as seems reasonable, is on the sensational cases. Much as the reporting in any part of the world is on the sensationalist aspects of others. This doesn't mean the sensational is the norm, just that it happens. You might be surprised to know that most 'not-sesationalist' rape trials where men are convicted in the US don't get reported in the international news media; would you be surprised the inverse be true? (that other countries trials aren't reported if they're not sensational).

So. That's all. I know - anecdote; no cnn sites etc.. but... I get saudi does monstrous things; i get that the system is bad on women, however the prejudgement bothers me. I'm not saying it's impossible, but really - it happened in saudi so lets hope the girl isn't punished herself? first thing? We hear constant negativity, so it's not surprising we have a negative response but that doesn't actually make out reflexive response correct.

Does that make sense? I don't particularly want to get into an argument about it so will leave the topic alone henceforth.

[emmiedahl]

My question was not rhetorical. I was concerned for the girl because I know of other cases in which seemingly blameless rape victims have been punished by fundamentalist Islamic theocracies. But I am not aware of the technicalities and various legal justifications, and I thought maybe someone else did.

[Patsy]

Does that make sense?

No. You said "not in undisputed "clearly" rape cases". Women have been punished for " "clearly" rape cases". I am including cases where women were supposedly being punished for being alone with a man, not for being raped; and then in that situation were kidnapped and gang-raped, as well as women who were just plain charged for 'adultery' for being raped even when there doesn't seem to be any victim-blamey bullshit that could be brought up.

[xDreamerx]

I phrased that badly.

Emmie asked a question - seems to me it was meant as a rhetorical question (see second post). I am more than willing to admit that women in Saudi get a shithouse deal; and yes - there are serious problems with how rapes are tried. as I understand it (by basis here is discussions with friends and those who've lived in Saudi) that yes; there are extreme cases where everything goes badly, but most rape cases are not as sensationalist as reported and with family support women aren't necessarily going to suffer. The reporting in the west, as seems reasonable, is on the sensational cases. Much as the reporting in any part of the world is on the sensationalist aspects of others. This doesn't mean the sensational is the norm, just that it happens. You might be surprised to know that most 'not-sesationalist' rape trials where men are convicted in the US don't get reported in the international news media; would you be surprised the inverse be true? (that other countries trials aren't reported if they're not sensational).

So. That's all. I know - anecdote; no cnn sites etc.. but... I get saudi does monstrous things; i get that the system is bad on women, however the prejudgement bothers me. I'm not saying it's impossible, but really - it happened in saudi so lets hope the girl isn't punished herself? first thing? We hear constant negativity, so it's not surprising we have a negative response but that doesn't actually make out reflexive response correct.

Does that make sense? I don't particularly want to get into an argument about it so will leave the topic alone henceforth.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you feel people have an unfair negative perception of Saudi Arabia. My question is this: How is it unfair when we know these things go on and when we know that women in such a country have no rights? I'm not saying America is perfect, but at least it's not a theocracy, at least people have basic freedoms there. I don't think it's racist or unfair to call a country out for its bad actions.

The wikipedia article on Saudi women is the most depressing thing ever.

[jaelh]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you feel people have an unfair negative perception of Saudi Arabia. My question is this: How is it unfair when we know these things go on and when we know that women in such a country have no rights? I'm not saying America is perfect, but at least it's not a theocracy, at least people have basic freedoms there. I don't think it's racist or unfair to call a country out for its bad actions.

The wikipedia article on Saudi women is the most depressing thing ever.

mmm... not quite. I think Saudi deserves much of it's reputation.

Rather, I think we reflexively assume the worst about Saudi Arabia. I'm not saying Saudi doesn't treat their women appallingly: but when the a post opens with skepticism that a man is being punished for the crime he went to trial for; first comment on a post is "i hope she doesn't have to marry him or go to jail" and the next comment talks about "over there", it seems to me we're immediately assuming that because it's Saudi these things *will*, or should at the least be expected, to happen. We know these things do go on, but we don't know how frequently; I'm assuming most people aren't basing their opinons on Saudi from what Saudi's report (there is loads out there on blogs, both critical and positive), rather they're basing them on western news reports.

There is a grey line between critiquing a system (and Saudi deserves strong critique) and immediately thinking - This is X, Thus Y. I get the aversion; I do; but surely this is almost the opposite story to "I hope she doesn't marry him" : the men in her family stood up and against one of their own; the system is straight up punishing said man for an abhorrent crime against women.. We so expect the bad that I think we look for it, we expect it, when it's not there.

Anyway. Again - I do think the Saudi theocracy is a terrible regime. Yet I still think we need to look with open eyes. I know many here don't ascribe to that approach: a fundie is a fundie is a fundie. Which is true, but I'd like to think if we're going to get the fundies (Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever) we get em for the right things. In this case - I dunno, seems to me Saudi did the right thing by the victim.

[Patsy]

Let's not be worried that a rape victim could possibly be treated poorly in Saudi Arabia, guys. That's such an overreaction after all.

I think you're either expressing your concerns poorly, or they are really weak concerns.

[BlondeAgent007]

i have to agree with jaelh and patsy on this one. I know these things can happen, but I think its unfair to assume those things when a lot of Americans only know what stories the media publishes (many, not all). IDK, it reminds me of the one day when my uncle declared that "all muslims hate Americans". My response? I basically called him out on being absolutely ridiculous because A) there are many MUSLIM AMERICANS, and B) that is a huge all inclusive statement to make. I pointed out that I know many black people, but none that I know have ever stolen a car. Does that mean no black people steal cars? No. but it certainly isn't the vast majority of them. In fact, the only person I know who ever hijjacked (spelling, I know)a car was white. Does that mean all white people steal cars?

Sorry to tangent, but I think assuming the absolute worst was a little like that.

[Patsy]

But I'm not agreeing with jaelh on this one. My "Let's not be worried that a rape victim could possibly be treated poorly in Saudi Arabia" was sarcastic, and her concerns about maligning Saudi Arabia are concerns I do not share, to say the least.

[BlondeAgent007]

My bad Patsy... in my defense I just worked a drive thru window ten hour shift at a local fast food restaurant... my brain must not be registering sarcasm. Now that I look back and realize u posted several times, I feel a little silly (my nice way of saying "stupid").

ETA: I guess you and I can agree to disagree

[theologygeek]

i have to agree with jaelh and patsy on this one. I know these things can happen, but I think its unfair to assume those things when a lot of Americans only know what stories the media publishes (many, not all). IDK, it reminds me of the one day when my uncle declared that "all muslims hate Americans". My response? I basically called him out on being absolutely ridiculous because A) there are many MUSLIM AMERICANS, and B) that is a huge all inclusive statement to make. I pointed out that I know many black people, but none that I know have ever stolen a car. Does that mean no black people steal cars? No. but it certainly isn't the vast majority of them. In fact, the only person I know who ever hijjacked (spelling, I know)a car was white. Does that mean all white people steal cars?

Sorry to tangent, but I think assuming the absolute worst was a little like that.

While I agree that making a blanket statement about all Muslims (insert whatever) is ridiculous, I would also like to add that being a Muslim American means nothing. I stopped speaking to my Muslim friend after we got into a heated discussion about his daughter. He is from India and is an American citizen. His wife and kids live in India. He was what I thought one of the sweetest and kindest people ever. One day I asked him how he would feel if his daughter in India married a Hindu man. To make a long story short, the conversation ended with him admitting that he would have her killed. He said that one of his relatives would kill her for him because it would shame the family. He also said that he would lose all love for her and wouldn't feel bad about her death at all. Watching his demeanor change was interesting. He went from agitated at the thought of her marrying a Hindu to indifferent with a "no biggie, shrug it off" attitude when he said he wouldn't feel bad about her death.