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I'd rather have a Prov. 31 woman than a Vicki's Secret model


MonkeyMomma

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Why is it mutually exclusive to be a Proverbs 31 woman and a Victoria's Secret model? Heidi Klum has a legendarily functional family and is a doting mother and wife; Adriana Lima, who is one of the hottest women in the world saved her virginity for marriage. A lot of the VS models are wives and mothers who are doing what Proverbs 31 advocates: working and taking care of a family.

Because I guess they're immodest? And working outside of the home?

Edit: Just googled her, she's hot indeed.

Just sooo tall. I don't like women that tall.

But that's just me.

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Why is it mutually exclusive to be a Proverbs 31 woman and a Victoria's Secret model? Heidi Klum has a legendarily functional family and is a doting mother and wife; Adriana Lima, who is one of the hottest women in the world saved her virginity for marriage. A lot of the VS models are wives and mothers who are doing what Proverbs 31 advocates: working and taking care of a family.

This was also my thought.

I assume these little shits don't realize that in trying to "respect" the women in their lives, they are disrespecting many many women. And it's telling that this douche has objectified VS models to the point that they are nothing but living lingerie mannequins to him. I've worn *gasp* a bikini on a public beach and I'd wager that millions of other women have done the same. If that precludes us from being "worthy" of these entitled man-children, I only have one thing to say: WE DIDN'T WANT YOU ANYWAY!

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This was also my thought.

I assume these little shits don't realize that in trying to "respect" the women in their lives, they are disrespecting many many women. And it's telling that this douche has objectified VS models to the point that they are nothing but living lingerie mannequins to him. I've worn *gasp* a bikini on a public beach and I'd wager that millions of other women have done the same. If that precludes us from being "worthy" of these entitled man-children, I only have one thing to say: WE DIDN'T WANT YOU ANYWAY!

YES. Also, while I hate a lot of what modeling/the fashion industry represents and involves, a lot of these women work extremely hard; I once did an afternoon promo shoot for the dance school I attended as a teenager, and photo shoots are not a joke! And trying to break into that high level of modelling usually means doing a lot of look-sees and getting rejections, etc. It's a hard life with a short career. I don't like people believing life is all about looks, but there is no doubt, in my mind, that these women work hard, deserve respect, and should use their natural talents/beauty to make money.

Also, former supermodel Christy Turlington has a Master's in public health from Columbia University. Tyra Banks has a talk show empire. Crystal Renn has written an amzing memoir. Supermodels are not, by definition, stupid, slutty, or lazy.

And Heidi Klum and Seal are one of my favorite celeb couples! So there!

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YES. Also, while I hate a lot of what modeling/the fashion industry represents and involves, a lot of these women work extremely hard; I once did an afternoon promo shoot for the dance school I attended as a teenager, and photo shoots are not a joke! And trying to break into that high level of modelling usually means doing a lot of look-sees and getting rejections, etc. It's a hard life with a short career. I don't like people believing life is all about looks, but there is no doubt, in my mind, that these women work hard, deserve respect, and should use their natural talents/beauty to make money.

Also, former supermodel Christy Turlington has a Master's in public health from Columbia University. Tyra Banks has a talk show empire. Crystal Renn has written an amzing memoir. Supermodels are not, by definition, stupid, slutty, or lazy.

And Heidi Klum and Seal are one of my favorite celeb couples! So there!

I hate Heidi Klum because she's UBER annoying on Germany's next top model and a couple of years ago there was a time where you hardly could go anywhere without running into an ad that featured her.

I'm a model, somewhere between semi-professional and hobby, I do earn money with it sometimes;) and photo shoots are EXHAUSTING. It's not like you need to be smart to it, but you need to work hard to do it.

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So I'm either supposed to strut around in nothing, getting my self worth by perpetuating the ideas that are established by men as "attractive" or I'm supposed to be completely submissive and cater to a man's every whim. That's what the Proverbs 31 woman does. It's just the Madonna/Whore sick paradigm expressed in a different way. No thanks to either!

Proverbs in general is problematic as scripture, because it's written as advice from a father to his son on how to pick out the best wife. "Woman Wisdom" or the Proverbs 31woman is the ideal, but before that is a long series of warnings on whom to stay away from, the "fallen woman". It sets up the dichotomy.

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Isn't the Proverbs 31 woman the one who does all kinds of different work and can support herself and her family (i.e. businesswoman)? Tills the fields and sells in the marketplace and all that? I thought the submissive woman was the Titus 2 woman.

(caveats: I don't really know the Bible that well and most of my info comes from the fundy blogs we read; I agree with everyone else that this guy is an asshat and couldn't care less what kind of woman he wants, but I'm just curious)

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YES. Also, while I hate a lot of what modeling/the fashion industry represents and involves, a lot of these women work extremely hard; I once did an afternoon promo shoot for the dance school I attended as a teenager, and photo shoots are not a joke! And trying to break into that high level of modelling usually means doing a lot of look-sees and getting rejections, etc. It's a hard life with a short career. I don't like people believing life is all about looks, but there is no doubt, in my mind, that these women work hard, deserve respect, and should use their natural talents/beauty to make money.

Also, former supermodel Christy Turlington has a Master's in public health from Columbia University. Tyra Banks has a talk show empire. Crystal Renn has written an amzing memoir. Supermodels are not, by definition, stupid, slutty, or lazy.

And Heidi Klum and Seal are one of my favorite celeb couples! So there!

Ditto. I'm not fan of the fashion industry or the modeling industry, but don't tell me that a model is somehow not "real". Being a skinny model makes you no less real than being average weight or overweight.

I was also thinking of VS model Jill Connick who has been married nearly 20 years and has 3 very well adjusted children.

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Give a fuck what you'd rather have?

THIS

What an entitled wee bastard. Men, choose (amongst the thousands flinging themselves at your manly godly feet) one kind of woman. Women, BE that kind of woman. Because The Mighty Penis Enabled calls you to.

It's just further evidence they do not see women as human beings.

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Can you explain this some more please?

Say there are 50 000 heterosexual marriages in a population. This means there are 50 000 women married to men, which is the figure used as the basis for the refined divorce rate, or the rate of divorces for total marriages (yes, I know it means it only applies to heterosexual marriages, but hopefully as same-sex marriage becomes more commonplace that'll change). In one year, 2000 more couples marry and 1000 divorce. Many people divide the one by the other and get a 50% divorce rate; there are half as many divorces as marriages, right?

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine because it's usually touted by fundies when they argue about how people are so sinful and no one values marriage anymore; just look at how half of all married couples will get divorced!

However, it's clear that only 2% of the existing married couples divorced that year; 49 000 remained married. I'm pretty sure that refined divorce rate, which is the most accurate, is that 2% statistic; of all the marriages in a given year, 2% will end in divorce that year. The most accurate measure of marital success (if indeed you believe that success means staying together, something I'll address shortly) would be, perhaps, to look at all the marriages commenced in a given year and follow them through to their conclusion, whether that be divorce or the death of one or both of the parties. Most often, however, these statistics are more interested in specific years, so the refined divorce rate is the most accurate.

Anyway, I felt the need to point it out because the guy was doing the usual sanctimonious "our society is so sinful, 1 in 2 marriages end in divorce!" as though most people get married purely on the basis of physical attraction. This bothers me both because it's over-inflated but also because it paints divorce as something bad; the flip side being that not divorcing is a sign of marital success, rather than staying together due to children or religious convictions. Few (outside fundieland) would argue that divorcing an abusive spouse is a bad thing; I have encountered Catholics who argue one should separate, but never actually divorce, but they seem to be on the fringes. Furthermore, while I do take marriage as a serious contract, I don't think any of us knows what we'll be like in 30 or 50 years' time, and if a couple finds that they are no longer happy together then I see no reason for them to stay together purely because they're married. It's a very personal choice, obviously, and I'm not deriding anyone who has stayed in an unhappy marriage, whatever the reason, but on the flip side I don't think a couple who are unhappy together should be seen as some kind of failure for divorcing.

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He sounds kinda like Smuggar, ick.

It's true American culture puts too much focus women's bodies but taking that focus and placing it how good of a "god fearing" women she is doesn't fix the problem. It just redirects it.

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Why is it any different for a woman to strive to have a perfect character in order to please a man than a perfect body?

And then what is a "perfect character" anyway? If it involves submission to men on principle in any way, I'll stay imperfect, thank you!

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And then what is a "perfect character" anyway? If it involves submission to men on principle in any way, I'll stay imperfect, thank you!

Fair point. I should probably have put 'perfect' in quotation marks, not just for character but for body, too, given that beauty is subjective and a 'perfect' body comprises more than just appearance.

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Proverbs 31 does not talk about a woman's character in terms of her being honest or brave. It discuses how she takes physical care of her house. That is it. She makes certain that there is food, that the servants have warm clothing and that money is generated. Her husband gets to sit at the gates of the city and have a gab fest with the other elders. Basically the Proverbs 31 woman gives everything for her home-even getting up before light- and her husband doesn't do anything.

I'm sorry. I'd rather my daughter be a Victorian Secret Model.

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Nope, she's my uber-fundie, daughter of a IFB preacher, Crown College* almost alumni (she didn't graduate because wanted to get married and start having teh baybiez) sister-in law.

*Crown College, you know, where they don't have green hair so Erin (?) Bates is allowed to attend....

Every time I see Crown College, my brain reads Clown College, which would be so much more fun! :dance:

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Proverbs 31 does not outline a hard-working, submissive servant-wife, although the way fundamentalists teach it, it certainly seems that way. I've even seen the poem (it' s a poem) quoted with neat little ellipses where the unwelcome verses aer supposed to be. The woman in the poem runs her own business, invests her own money, and teaches the members of her household with wisdom on her own. She also has staff. Servants. She does not and is not expected to do it all on her own. Buuuuut of course fundamentalists use the poem as a checklist to tear down women who aren't doing it all with a smile and also argue that of course she gets clearance for everything from her headship first.

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While I'm not for the subservient know towing wife I actually like the part of prov 31 which is sung on Friday nights in more traditionally observantJewish homes eshes chayil is beautiful and has haunting melody.

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Every time I see Crown College, my brain reads Clown College, which would be so much more fun! :dance:

It might as well be.... look at their website, there's not a mathbook to be found.

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One thing that amuses me on the Prov 31 woman... is that she isn't the Patriarchal ideal. She isn't at home all day, she buys and sells real estate, she has her own business and her husband praises her for it and doesn't feel threatened by all that she does.

And second... most homeschool guys still go for the hot gals. They just want them covered when anyone else sees their woman.

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Why is he bothering to look like he's reading Proverbs 31 when he's actually leaving half of it out?

Let's look at the parts that he skipped, shall we?

13. She seeks wool and flax, and she works it with the will of her hands.

14. She is like the merchant ships, she brings her food from afar.

15. She rises when it is still night; she gives food to her household and an allotted share to her maidens.

16. She contemplates a field and purchases it; from the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.

17. She girds her loins with vigor and strengthens her arms.

18. [When] she advises that her merchandise is good her lamp does not go out at night.

19. She stretches forth her hands onto the distaff, and her hands support the spindle.

20. She spreads out her hand to the poor man, and she stretches her hands out to the needy.

21. She fears not for her household for snow, for all her household are dressed in crimson.

22. She makes beautiful bedspreads for herself; fine linen and purple wool are her raiment.

23. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sits with the elders of the land.

24. She makes a cloak and sells it, and she gives a belt to the merchant.

from http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... ter-31.htm

So yeah, the ideal Proverbs 31 woman negotiates real estate deals, runs a vineyard, manufactures fabric and clothing and gets involved in commerce.

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I actually had this sent to me from a friend who went to the same college this guy apparently goes to--Baylor University in Waco, Texas. It's a very conservative Christian school that even filters its on-campus internet. I'm assuming this type of "woman" has been shoved down his throat since birth and has continued into college, which is when most young people grow into themselves instead of just becoming more indoctrinated with their Mommy and Daddy's beliefs. I'm not trying to justify what he did, just add a little perspective.

edited because my words made absolutely zero sense.

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Why is he bothering to look like he's reading Proverbs 31 when he's actually leaving half of it out?

Let's look at the parts that he skipped, shall we?

13. She seeks wool and flax, and she works it with the will of her hands.

14. She is like the merchant ships, she brings her food from afar.

15. She rises when it is still night; she gives food to her household and an allotted share to her maidens.

16. She contemplates a field and purchases it; from the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.

17. She girds her loins with vigor and strengthens her arms.

18. [When] she advises that her merchandise is good her lamp does not go out at night.

19. She stretches forth her hands onto the distaff, and her hands support the spindle.

20. She spreads out her hand to the poor man, and she stretches her hands out to the needy.

21. She fears not for her household for snow, for all her household are dressed in crimson.

22. She makes beautiful bedspreads for herself; fine linen and purple wool are her raiment.

23. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sits with the elders of the land.

24. She makes a cloak and sells it, and she gives a belt to the merchant.

from http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... ter-31.htm

So yeah, the ideal Proverbs 31 woman negotiates real estate deals, runs a vineyard, manufactures fabric and clothing and gets involved in commerce.

There is nothing in that list that a model can't do. Also, the list has nothing to do with a woman's morals. A wife could do all those things and still be a backstabbing, cruel person(well, except give to the poor) Notice that the Proverbs 31 woman is dressing really well. (rule 22) In the ancient world, purple was considered the color of the wealthy. No frumpers for Proverbs 31 woman.

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