Lowe's pulls ads from All-American Muslim.

[amydamy]

How recent is most of the immigration to European countries?

I get the sense that Europe struggles with multiculturalism more than Canada does. Let me make it clear - when I say that I live in a multicultural area, I mean "possibly the most multicultural on the planet".

Demographics for Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Burb where I grew up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markham,_O ... mographics

One thing about living here is that pretty much everyone, at some point, was an immigrant. So sure, hubby may have a patient who struggles with English - but my ILs also speak English as a third language. My grandparents were born in Canada (which in Toronto terms is like saying that my ancestors arrived on the Mayflower), but I remember my great-grandparents, who immigrated from Russia and Romania. There is a sense that we have created a new culture, based on values that include tolerance, and that we are all part of that.

Does Europe have a framework for integrating immigrants, while allowing them the freedom to retain culture and religion? Does the term multiculturalism get misused, in a way that allows double standards to exist or allows people to live as an economic subclass? Is there a racism of diminished expectations? For example, is there the same concern for the rights of ethnic women, or do problems get dismissed if they aren't seen as affecting the majority community?

Do you really think Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world ?

[tropaka]

Toronto is one of the most ethnically diverse. It's debatable whether or not it's the most multicultural, but it has the highest population of foreign born citizens

[fakepigtails73]

I lived in Toronto for 2 yrs on a work contract and didn't like it (aside from the clothes shopping). It's a city that is in full economic boom, so good for them. While I lived there the mayor was a big excentric (he already had a town square named after him, usually places are named after you're dead no?), now they have a new mayor. Torontonians, how do you like mayor Ford?

It is very, very multicultural, but this wasn't the reason why I didn't enjoy my experience there. I mean I knew how the city was before I moved there.

You either love Toronto or not. It's a bit like New York in that it's a "work work work" city.

Is it the most multicult. city in the world? I dunno, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the top 5.

[amydamy]

Toronto is one of the most ethnically diverse. It's debatable whether or not it's the most multicultural, but it has the highest population of foreign born citizens

But if they are coming from the same small group of countries it doesn't increase diversity just because they weren't born in Canada.

I grew up in Jersey City which was very diverse and a small town in central NJ which was not. I tend to use NYC as my benchmark for diversity and multiculturalism. I'm also tainted by my experience in Canada is not with the large cities but areas that are not ethnically diverse at all.

[dawn9476]

I don't know about their Muslim population but Toronto is suppose to have a very strong Asian community.

[emmiedahl]

Yeah, I was just looking it up on Wikipedia and it looks like about 25% of the population is Asian.

[tropaka]

Toronto has a huge Asian/Chinese population. As for people who I've known through work or school who are muslim, I've met people from Iran, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt and Pakistan. As for diversity in the city, within a block of my house there are businesses/restaurants and churches run by Afghan, Maltese, Greek, Vietnamese, Portugese, Nigerian (church), Jamaican, Polish, Korean, Latino (church) and Ukrainian people. I think Toronto has the largest populations of Maltese, Greek and Sri Lankens outside of their home countries. What we don't have is a large French/Quebecois community.

It's common to see hijabs, not so common to see niqab (although from time to time I do - and the women tend to have a lot of eye makeup on).

[Sola]

Yeah, I was just looking it up on Wikipedia and it looks like about 25% of the population is Asian.

Tower Hamlets (a town in London) is more than 30% Asian.

[gustava]

You're gonna wait a long time for my explanation, and I do have one.

I just don't feel like being egged-on by strangers for a different opinion.

Case close on my part.

I wish you a happy death.

[fakepigtails73]

I wish you a happy death.

Thanks for the death threat.

[gustava]

Just maybe that might have to do with the deadline more than with FJ.

Just as someone wrote yesterday in the pregnancy thread (actually Michelle miscarrying thread), this discussion is going nowhere.

And I didn't want to write this, but now I will:

In the US obviously people can hardly tell others not to immigrate to their country, because almost everyone did and one or the other point.

But here, it's a little bit of a different story.

And I have some more things that I will not say on a public board and especially not on this on, that I know are true (statistically proven) but will cause way too much rage because you just "can't" say that. I'm thinking of certain immigrant's criminal statistics, for example. In my own country, that I naturally know more about than the situation in other countries.

I wish you too a happy death.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Demographics are a fact.

How a society deals with multi-ethnic demographics is a policy choice.

Do you get all immigrants into an intensive language course on arrival? Do you sponsor heritage language classes in the school system?

Do you encourage everyone, regardless of date of arrival, to think of themselves as being [citizenship X]? Do you sponsor festivals for local members of various ethnic communities to preserve their culture?

Do you allow religious headgear for public servants, police, etc. because you believe in freedom of religion and non-discrimination? Do you ban anyone working in or attending public institutions from wearing religious headgear or other religious symbols, since you see it as divisive?

Do you have a single public school system for all? Do you allow separate schools to operate with public funds for each group? Do you allow specialized programs or charter schools for marginalized groups?

Is there a common child protection system, or separate ones for different groups?

My point was not that I had a solution to all of the challenges that multicultural society presents. My point was that simply sayng that multiculturalism "doesn't work" and pressuring the media/business/public to not "support it" is unralistic. Lowe's is a private company and as such, they have the right to choose where there advertising support is placed. However, the decision Lowe's made was based on political pressure from an organization whose mission is to oppose muticulturalism (among other things). This organization (and I have looked at their website) pressures power/money institutions to shun reality.

The fact is that we have a multicultural society. We have Muslim people living in American as American citizens. Some of them are mre religious and some of them are more secular, just like everyone else. Pretending they do not exist does not make them go away. Pretending that they are all a huge risk denies them their rights as human beings and citizens. Families with gay heads of houshold also exist. They are not going away either.

Life is messy. Children need to be prepared for the messiness, not simply kept unaware of it. The average Christian young person has no need to embrace Islam or a gay lifestyle or any other American variation that does not fit their view of the world. But they do need to learn to cope with the variation. And all of us can learn a thing or two about the wide variety of expressions of Islam, of the Hmong, of anyone who is a bit different than themselves.

As for my personal opinion about how to handle these messy things, that is a different matter. First, lets pour sunshine on it. Let us all look at this multicultural salad of humanity and see what is there, rather than relying on assumptions. Reality TV is rather cartoonish, but it does begin to open the door to new ideas. We cannot, as a society make good decisions about the things you asked above without exposure to the folks in question.

I submit that some of the things that make many people uncomfortable about new immigrants are things like language and religion and the fact that there is a tendency to cloister together at first. My own experience as a second generation American illustrates this. I was sent to University in the major city where I lived. My family dod not think it was proper for young women to live outside the parent's home if not married. I was expectd to get a good education and to be able to support myself at need. Living is a big metro area (which is common to new immigrants) allowed me to do this. My own children all went away to college and were encouraged to seek and explore friendships with all different kinds of people. It takes a few generations for total immersion. In the US, the majority of Muslims are no more than 2 generations American.

I do believe that all Americans should learn English. I also think that while it is not required, most Americans would do themselves a service by learning at least one other language. I think that special holidays should be recognized and respected. Children should be excused from public schools to participate in such holidays. I do not think that schools should direct prayer or force specific religious doctrine on any child. I do think that children should be premitted to pray, that they should be encouraged to share their customs with other students and that the teaching of the basics of all/any religions are appropriate to a public school curriculum. Headgear and religious symbols are part of freedom of expression and we can all embract that. The only limitation would be safety. As for sponsoring festivals and such, that is a community level decision.

I am not a perfect person and despite having many Muslim friends, I also find myself suspiscious of the motives of some Muslim groups. The only way that I know to diffuse the danger (real or perceived) is to shine a light on it and let us all see what is there.

[doggie]

I have a good friend who is Muslim who doesn't cover because she thinks in the United States, wearing hijab is the opposite of modesty, since it draws attention to yourself. Instead she wears muted but western clothing, her hair in a bun or ponytail and sometimes a hat.

Damm that's so wise. Too bad fundies can't figure that out.

[Daenerys]

Tower Hamlets (a town in London) is more than 30% Asian.

Where I live is probably more than 40% Asian and will be majority non-white in a few years. The majority of schoolkids have been Asian for a while.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Tower Hamlets (a town in London) is more than 30% Asian.

Markham, Ontario, which borders on Toronto, is over 50% Asian.

Yes, I would say that Toronto is more multicultural than New York City, since about 50% are foreign-born, and it's also around 50% visible minority (majority?). I guess that people who haven't been here don't realize that we have diversity in Canada.

[Sunnichick31]

Slightly off topic- which Free Jingerette is Elizebeth Berberich?? (from Lowe's FB page.) And Elizebeth, if you're a lurker, come out in the open!! :)

Elizabeth Berberich

The Christian fundie God squad has no problem with forcing their

views on us on TV, radio, literature, etc. So why do they think that the Muslim faith is propaganda? I am a card carrying agnostic that feels that we should all respect one another's constitutional right to freedom of religion. Allah bless you all :)

Fundie God squad. I love it!

[emmiedahl]

To all the Muslims on the board, PLEASE do not think that most Americans feel this way. omg, I am so embarrassed and appalled on behalf of my country. I sent Lowe's an email explaining that I would never shop there again and that they owe Islam a huge public apology.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Markham, Ontario, which borders on Toronto, is over 50% Asian.

I visited Toronto on vacation last year (finally, most of my trips to Canada have been to more rural locales) and was very happy to visit Markham, because there were a lot of specialty things I was able to get in some of the shopping centers there, that had lots of imported things from Asia. Household kitchen widgets and whatnot, plus of course music...

It was the first time outside of an officially Chinese speaking country I found an ATM with the default language Chinese, but hey, I thought it was interesting (and I can read enough to get by). Ate myself silly, too.

Earlier that same year I visited the small town of Hearst (took the train from Sault Ste. Marie, yes, we are train nerds), it was majority French-speaking. That was harder, but they were tolerant of me! :D

[2xx1xy1JD]

I guess you found the Pacific Mall! Yes, it's quite possible to live here and speak nothing but Cantonese.

The Algoma railroad from Sault Ste. Marie is a great train ride. Much better than the over-rated Polar Bear Express (which does not in fact lead to polar bears).

For anyone who has been to Canada but not Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver - the demographics are entirely different.

[nataraja]

Well done, Anna Lena, you have finally created a situation where it is more desirable to get on with your thesis than spend all day on Free Jinger. :lol:

FreeJinger isn't even the only Board where she spends a big amount of time while procrastinating. She is also the member of a german board aimed to victims of sexual abuse where she writes consistantly and detailed about her daily life.

She claims that her father molested her but after reading a little bit in her thread on the german board I came to the conclusion that she hasn't really been molested and she is just telling herself that she was molested. I believe that Lena falsely believes her father groped her but there was never any true molestation. Being a victim serves her because she gets attention out of it and it gives her an excuse to act more egoistical.

[Boogalou]

I visited Toronto on vacation last year (finally, most of my trips to Canada have been to more rural locales) and was very happy to visit Markham, because there were a lot of specialty things I was able to get in some of the shopping centers there, that had lots of imported things from Asia. Household kitchen widgets and whatnot, plus of course music...

It was the first time outside of an officially Chinese speaking country I found an ATM with the default language Chinese, but hey, I thought it was interesting (and I can read enough to get by). Ate myself silly, too.

Earlier that same year I visited the small town of Hearst (took the train from Sault Ste. Marie, yes, we are train nerds), it was majority French-speaking. That was harder, but they were tolerant of me! :D

DID YOU GO TO PACIFIC MALL!?!?!?!? It's a strange place I think but it has good food.

But now I must stop talking to you because you like trains. I hate them (well, not trains specifically, just VIA Rail).

[Alecto]

FreeJinger isn't even the only Board where she spends a big amount of time while procrastinating. She is also the member of a german board aimed to victims of sexual abuse where she writes consistantly and detailed about her daily life.

She claims that her father molested her but after reading a little bit in her thread on the german board I came to the conclusion that she hasn't really been molested and she is just telling herself that she was molested. I believe that Lena falsely believes her father groped her but there was never any true molestation. Being a victim serves her because she gets attention out of it and it gives her an excuse to act more egoistical.

[Austin]

FreeJinger isn't even the only Board where she spends a big amount of time while procrastinating. She is also the member of a german board aimed to victims of sexual abuse where she writes consistantly and detailed about her daily life.

She claims that her father molested her but after reading a little bit in her thread on the german board I came to the conclusion that she hasn't really been molested and she is just telling herself that she was molested. I believe that Lena falsely believes her father groped her but there was never any true molestation. Being a victim serves her because she gets attention out of it and it gives her an excuse to act more egoistical.

How did you out find that she posted here?

edited because I can't type

[mirele]

Rap entrepreneur Russell Simmons has purchàsed all the remaining commercial slots for "All American Muslim" for next week. No idea what he'll be selling. (This is per theTwitter machine).

[Alecto]

Rap entrepreneur Russell Simmons has purchàsed all the remaining commercial slots for "All American Muslim" for next week. No idea what he'll be selling. (This is per theTwitter machine).

Phat Pharm/Baby Phat clothes? (He owns the company)