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Lowe's pulls ads from All-American Muslim.


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Ok, that's it from me for the next hours, I've got to get the hell outta here and find some movies on intrapreneurship and write about 10 pages today. :shock:

Well done, Anna Lena, you have finally created a situation where it is more desirable to get on with your thesis than spend all day on Free Jinger. :lol:

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Interestingly, the big immigrant Muslim group here (Somali) do a LOT better in the US than in the UK or Sweden - last year the Swedes sent a delegation here to learn what we did differently.

Of course the Somali business community has taken a big hit just lately - in 2001 the feds shut down a lot of money-wiring services and made it really hard for US banks to do business with Somali money moving networks (which are of course informal and undocumented, since there's little functional government there). Just recently the last remaining bank in the city that would move money from here to there, had to stop.

It's bad in Somalia, with the horrible drought and families depending on remittances from abroad - but it's bad here, too, because a big chunk of Somali businesses is phone cards & money wiring.

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Well done, Anna Lena, you have finally created a situation where it is more desirable to get on with your thesis than spend all day on Free Jinger. :lol:

Yeah, anniec, thanks for the love.

And it's just so easy to judge others, isn't it?

Thank god you never had issues with procrastination or getting anything done, otherwise you'd be in no position to judge me.

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You're gonna wait a long time for my explanation, and I do have one.

I just don't feel like being egged-on by strangers for a different opinion.

Case close on my part.

That has to be the lamest excuse ever for not stating why you believe what you believe. And it pretty much shows you know that if you state the real reason, we will see how offensive they are and you know you can't back them up without looking like a jerk.

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How recent is most of the immigration to European countries?

I get the sense that Europe struggles with multiculturalism more than Canada does. Let me make it clear - when I say that I live in a multicultural area, I mean "possibly the most multicultural on the planet".

Demographics for Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Burb where I grew up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markham,_O ... mographics

One thing about living here is that pretty much everyone, at some point, was an immigrant. So sure, hubby may have a patient who struggles with English - but my ILs also speak English as a third language. My grandparents were born in Canada (which in Toronto terms is like saying that my ancestors arrived on the Mayflower), but I remember my great-grandparents, who immigrated from Russia and Romania. There is a sense that we have created a new culture, based on values that include tolerance, and that we are all part of that.

Does Europe have a framework for integrating immigrants, while allowing them the freedom to retain culture and religion? Does the term multiculturalism get misused, in a way that allows double standards to exist or allows people to live as an economic subclass? Is there a racism of diminished expectations? For example, is there the same concern for the rights of ethnic women, or do problems get dismissed if they aren't seen as affecting the majority community?

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Guest Anonymous

Yeah, anniec, thanks for the love.

And it's just so easy to judge others, isn't it?

Thank god you never had issues with procrastination or getting anything done, otherwise you'd be in no position to judge me.

Oh come on Anna Lena, you spent most of yesterday evening hand-slapping women for their food and drink choices in pregnancy, and stirring the pot with vague rants about multiculturalism, and now that you are being asked some difficult and direct questions, you have suddenly found a pressing urge to get on with the thesis that you have been openly avoiding for the last several months. ;)

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I already would not bank with Bof A, so that is a non-starter. I generally prefer Lowe's to Home Depot. I am moving soon, but it will be Home Depot for me.

As for multiculturalism, I think that we are beyond debate. It really is not a value system. It is a fact. You might not like it. You might try to live in an area where you feel somewhat sequestered with people of your own kind. The fact is that we have the internet. We have air travel. We have people from many cultures participating in our world simultaneously, both virtually and in real life. Saying you do not agree with muliticulturalism is like saying you do not agree with bad weather. It is messy. We have to deal with it. It sometimes causes problems and other times creates opportunities to approach the world in new ways and to celebrate the warmth of human company.

Multiculturalism is a fact.

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Oh come on Anna Lena, you spent most of yesterday evening hand-slapping women for their food and drink choices in pregnancy, and stirring the pot with vague rants about multiculturalism, and now that you are being asked some difficult and direct questions, you have suddenly found a pressing urge to get on with the thesis that you have been openly avoiding for the last several months. ;)

Just maybe that might have to do with the deadline more than with FJ.

Just as someone wrote yesterday in the pregnancy thread (actually Michelle miscarrying thread), this discussion is going nowhere.

And I didn't want to write this, but now I will:

In the US obviously people can hardly tell others not to immigrate to their country, because almost everyone did and one or the other point.

But here, it's a little bit of a different story.

And I have some more things that I will not say on a public board and especially not on this on, that I know are true (statistically proven) but will cause way too much rage because you just "can't" say that. I'm thinking of certain immigrant's criminal statistics, for example. In my own country, that I naturally know more about than the situation in other countries.

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Moslem is definitely a spelling you will find in old texts, but not any others as far as I know. It's like how 'today' used to be spelled 'to-day'.

I spelled it that way until fairly recently, as the only Muslim I knew (again, until fairly recently), preferred that spelling and I thought it was par for the course. I think she preferred it for linguistic reasons, just like she spelled Pakistan differently because of transliteration. Someone on the old board was nice enough to bring me up to date, though!

I just had a lovely experience at a mosque I visited in Bosnia, where a very eager Imam gave us an extensive tour and answered all our questions, then as we were leaving right before afternoon prayer, waved to us from the top of the minaret! Since I have so many issues with religion from a feminist point of view, I could never convert, but if there was reconstructionist Islam or something I'd be likely to join up.

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That has to be the lamest excuse ever for not stating why you believe what you believe. And it pretty much shows you know that if you state the real reason, we will see how offensive they are and you know you can't back them up without looking like a jerk.

Boo freaking hoo.

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First, I am trying to figure out where annalena lives that Muslims want their daughters uneducated. Granted, Muslims are a diverse group, and often people confuse cultural and tribalist beliefs with religious beliefs. There is a huge difference between a Muslim from India, one from Pakistan and one from Saudi Arabia. I can't speak authoritatively about Muslims from African countries, because I only know one, and I have a feeling he's not the norm, especially when he drinks.

I have attended our local mosque on multiple occasions. I have many friends who are Muslim. And the general consensus I get from my friends is the idea of a Muslim stay at home daughter is hilarious. Most of them would be disowned if they did not go to college, and their parents expect them to attend post-grad in some way shape or form.

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On problem I can think with Multiculturalism is that it can end up isolating people within their community rather than encouraging greater integration overall.

One of my friends used to work in a private boarding school that takes a lot of pupils from China, Russia and the Middle East as well as England. They used to have a rule saying that pupils could speak any language they wanted in the dorms, but had to speak English in class and on campus. This was so everyone could communicate equally with one another, however after an inspection they were told this wasn't 'multicultural' enough and they had to tell the pupils they could speak to each other in whatever language they wanted. So whereas before there were Chinese, Russian, Saudi and English pupils hanging out in mixed groups, it quickly became homogenous groups speaking their own native language. I should point out everybody could communicate fluently in English as this was a very competitive school academic-wise.

So there's an example of multiculturalism not actually working very well. Doesn't mean I think it's universally shit, but in this case definitely.

Yes, this was pretty much the downside I was thinking of. Warning: useless anecdata coming up: one of my friend's Mom was Korean and spoke about 20 words total of English. At the time she was living in a very, very white and English community where very few people spoke Korean. That would be incredibly isolating for her where maybe some more encouragement of integration would have been helpful.

Also, fakepigtails73 I noticed you are from Quebec. You don't have to answer this but are you Native Canadian?

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I already would not bank with Bof A, so that is a non-starter. I generally prefer Lowe's to Home Depot. I am moving soon, but it will be Home Depot for me.

As for multiculturalism, I think that we are beyond debate. It really is not a value system. It is a fact. You might not like it. You might try to live in an area where you feel somewhat sequestered with people of your own kind. The fact is that we have the internet. We have air travel. We have people from many cultures participating in our world simultaneously, both virtually and in real life. Saying you do not agree with muliticulturalism is like saying you do not agree with bad weather. It is messy. We have to deal with it. It sometimes causes problems and other times creates opportunities to approach the world in new ways and to celebrate the warmth of human company.

Multiculturalism is a fact.

Demographics are a fact.

How a society deals with multi-ethnic demographics is a policy choice.

Do you get all immigrants into an intensive language course on arrival? Do you sponsor heritage language classes in the school system?

Do you encourage everyone, regardless of date of arrival, to think of themselves as being [citizenship X]? Do you sponsor festivals for local members of various ethnic communities to preserve their culture?

Do you allow religious headgear for public servants, police, etc. because you believe in freedom of religion and non-discrimination? Do you ban anyone working in or attending public institutions from wearing religious headgear or other religious symbols, since you see it as divisive?

Do you have a single public school system for all? Do you allow separate schools to operate with public funds for each group? Do you allow specialized programs or charter schools for marginalized groups?

Is there a common child protection system, or separate ones for different groups?

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How recent is most of the immigration to European countries?

I get the sense that Europe struggles with multiculturalism more than Canada does. Let me make it clear - when I say that I live in a multicultural area, I mean "possibly the most multicultural on the planet".

Demographics for Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Burb where I grew up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markham,_O ... mographics

One thing about living here is that pretty much everyone, at some point, was an immigrant. So sure, hubby may have a patient who struggles with English - but my ILs also speak English as a third language. My grandparents were born in Canada (which in Toronto terms is like saying that my ancestors arrived on the Mayflower), but I remember my great-grandparents, who immigrated from Russia and Romania. There is a sense that we have created a new culture, based on values that include tolerance, and that we are all part of that.

Does Europe have a framework for integrating immigrants, while allowing them the freedom to retain culture and religion? Does the term multiculturalism get misused, in a way that allows double standards to exist or allows people to live as an economic subclass? Is there a racism of diminished expectations? For example, is there the same concern for the rights of ethnic women, or do problems get dismissed if they aren't seen as affecting the majority community?

In the UK it's been going on for decades, though the biggest influx has been since the 1960's. We've got 3rd/4th generation Muslims here now. I can only speak of what happens here in the UK but for the most part things are peaceful. Problems only tend to occur when hot-headed young men from either side (right wingers and Muslim fundies) start kicking off. We've had cases of forced marriage, spousal abuse etc with daughters being forced to marry someone from their parents country, but we've had massive campaigns to raise awareness about it so that it isn't as likely to happen as it once did.

The biggest problems I see in my professional life is generally among those immigrants with a lower educational attainment themselves. I see kids with special needs as part of my job and sometimes I will get a child of immigrant parents and the mother, who is the one who I will have most dealings with, cannot speak a word of English. Those with higher educational attainment - the middle class type immigrants for example - both parents tend to speak English even if only as a second language. But the 'lower classes' (Jeez I sound such a snob now but I can't think of any less offensive way of wording it!), the father will speak some English - enough to get by, but the mother speaks none. As it is generally the mother I see I need an interpreter in there with me. That in itself can lead to problems especially with a vulnerable child with mental health issues - the fewer people in there the better as the child will feel more comfortable.

I don't know why this is the case but it seems as though most often this is in Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities. There's a really sweet old lady who runs a fabric shop in my town which I go to a lot. She knows no English at all and when I buy from her I have to hold up my fingers to tell her how many yards of fabric I want! She must be 75 if she is a day and once I was talking to her granddaughter who was helping her in the shop. She has lived here for more than 50 years, runs a shop, yet has never learned English.

Another one of the problems we've got in my local area is housing. Over the last 5 years we've had a large influx of Eastern Europeans, asylum seekers and Rroma. Because of government policy of not allowing asylum seekers in particular to work, they have to live on welfare. The amount of welfare they get is also very reduced compared to what a typical job seeker would get in welfare. They are allowed 2/3rd's of the official amount. That is a pitifully low amount of money to live on. They are also not allowed council (public) housing until they have had their asylum case allowed and have been here a certain amount of time, then they have to join the waiting list. As a result they tend to get shoved in to private rented housing in the poorest part of town. These houses are run down, expensive to heat and tend to be pretty dire. The schools in those areas suffer too because they will have a huge percentage of newly arrived immigrants with English as a second language and the schools have deal with that. Often they are transient so the kids don't stay in that school for very long. It puts a huge pressure on the schools finances. It doesn;t help when right wing tabloids (looking at you Daily Mail) whip up hysteria.

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Yeah, anniec, thanks for the love.

And it's just so easy to judge others, isn't it?

Thank god you never had issues with procrastination or getting anything done, otherwise you'd be in no position to judge me.

I have horrible issues with procrastination, especially in regards to schoolwork and the like. But I'll still judge you for spending your time screwing around online and constantly whining on here (especially when you've already been given an extension) instead of logging off FJ and getting to work. Especially since you seem to be so damn judgmental of everyone else.

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As a bilingual person, I don't want anyone telling me I have to speak one language or another in any private time situation. That would include recess, if I were still a student. If people are all truly bilingual, such that they're perfectly comfortable in using English, I can't see why suddenly being allowed to speak something else will mean they'll automatically speak their other language and self-segregate.

I do see a lot of self-segregation (at a large Midwestern university) but honestly, it's not only among foreign students (many of whom are actual foreigners on student visas and aren't comfortable in English) but it happens among US-born English-only kids too. The issues have got to be bigger than just language.

As someone who is non-religious and not from even a culturally "Abrahamic religion" background, I think the main differences with respect to treatment of women and the rest are not really between the "flavor" of religion (Christianity vs. Judaism vs. Islam) but rather between the different "fundie levels." If you go hard-line fundie in ANY of those traditions, it doesn't look all that different, quite frankly (and surely not just those traditions either, but "Christianity vs. Islam" in particular is one difference people keep harping on in the US).

Right now around me there is a lot of sentiment about Muslims somehow being dangerous, mostly because it seems the main image people have is of people pretty far to the right on the "fundie scale." If this show is thinking to purposefully combat that, in the US specifically, I suppose it makes some sense to show a more "liberal" family. On the other hand, if they aim to say more "what are Muslims like?" generally, then I agree it'd be nice to see a variety of families from different backgrounds. Of course, if they did that, it'd be interesting to see them do some similar documentaries on other religions, including Christianity.

Still it's so easy to end up with sort of "it's a good thing to be serious about your religion and your culture if you're in the majority, but if you're a minority, you should downplay it and go to the extreme other end of only keeping a few cultural trappings" which is problematic too. There's all sorts of criticism of "cafeteria Christians" who only do church on Xmas and Easter, but suddenly if you need accomodation for lesser-known holidays of some other religion, suddenly oh no, it's dangerous creeping fanaticism.

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How recent is most of the immigration to European countries?

I get the sense that Europe struggles with multiculturalism more than Canada does. Let me make it clear - when I say that I live in a multicultural area, I mean "possibly the most multicultural on the planet".

Demographics for Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Burb where I grew up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markham,_O ... mographics

One thing about living here is that pretty much everyone, at some point, was an immigrant. So sure, hubby may have a patient who struggles with English - but my ILs also speak English as a third language. My grandparents were born in Canada (which in Toronto terms is like saying that my ancestors arrived on the Mayflower), but I remember my great-grandparents, who immigrated from Russia and Romania. There is a sense that we have created a new culture, based on values that include tolerance, and that we are all part of that.

Does Europe have a framework for integrating immigrants, while allowing them the freedom to retain culture and religion? Does the term multiculturalism get misused, in a way that allows double standards to exist or allows people to live as an economic subclass? Is there a racism of diminished expectations? For example, is there the same concern for the rights of ethnic women, or do problems get dismissed if they aren't seen as affecting the majority community?

My area isn't far behind and we have less residential segregation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver

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First, I am trying to figure out where annalena lives that Muslims want their daughters uneducated. Granted, Muslims are a diverse group, and often people confuse cultural and tribalist beliefs with religious beliefs. There is a huge difference between a Muslim from India, one from Pakistan and one from Saudi Arabia. I can't speak authoritatively about Muslims from African countries, because I only know one, and I have a feeling he's not the norm, especially when he drinks.

I have attended our local mosque on multiple occasions. I have many friends who are Muslim. And the general consensus I get from my friends is the idea of a Muslim stay at home daughter is hilarious. Most of them would be disowned if they did not go to college, and their parents expect them to attend post-grad in some way shape or form.

Me too. I live in an area with a high Muslim population, and attend a school with a high Muslim population. All sorts of Muslims, conservative to liberal, male and female, old and young, strict and not, covered or not so covered, and from a wide range of countries. Most of the time you can't even tell a woman is Muslim if you don't ask.

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But the 'lower classes' (Jeez I sound such a snob now but I can't think of any less offensive way of wording it!)

Low income works.

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Me too. I live in an area with a high Muslim population, and attend a school with a high Muslim population. All sorts of Muslims, conservative to liberal, male and female, old and young, strict and not, covered or not so covered, and from a wide range of countries. Most of the time you can't even tell a woman is Muslim if you don't ask.

That's quite interesting, because here in England I have had MULTIPLE arguments with people who genuinely believed Muslim women 100% had to cover their hair. Most of the Muslims I have been friends with haven't done so.

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That's quite interesting, because here in England I have had MULTIPLE arguments with people who genuinely believed Muslim women 100% had to cover their hair. Most of the Muslims I have been friends with haven't done so.

I've had that argument with my dad, as well as the one about how "those people" don't let their daughters get an education (he doesn't really distinguish between Sikh and Muslim though, which confuses me because he knows there is a huge difference between the two religions). Every time I'll just tell him "You know I go to school with 'those people' right? Including women [who dress less modestly than I do]".

I'd say most Muslim women here don't cover either. You still get to see a lot of really nice hijabs and the occasional niqab. I've found that in certain situations I have more to talk about with Muslim friends than non-Muslim friends. Like the dinner where my best friend and I complained about not liking to go out to certain places with people because they try and make us feel like crap about not drinking alcohol.

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I have a good friend who is Muslim who doesn't cover because she thinks in the United States, wearing hijab is the opposite of modesty, since it draws attention to yourself. Instead she wears muted but western clothing, her hair in a bun or ponytail and sometimes a hat.

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Where I live most Mulimah's don't cover their hair. They will often wear a duppatta but mostly it's just draped around their shoulders and not around their heads. Those that do wear hijab tend to be of Iranian or Iraqi origin, the duppatta wearing women tend to be Bangladeshi or Pakistani. A few women wear niqaab, but these are a minority and ironically, most of them that I have met are white British converts.

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First, I am trying to figure out where annalena lives that Muslims want their daughters uneducated. Granted, Muslims are a diverse group, and often people confuse cultural and tribalist beliefs with religious beliefs. There is a huge difference between a Muslim from India, one from Pakistan and one from Saudi Arabia. I can't speak authoritatively about Muslims from African countries, because I only know one, and I have a feeling he's not the norm, especially when he drinks.

I have attended our local mosque on multiple occasions. I have many friends who are Muslim. And the general consensus I get from my friends is the idea of a Muslim stay at home daughter is hilarious. Most of them would be disowned if they did not go to college, and their parents expect them to attend post-grad in some way shape or form.

I didn't get that she was saying Muslim parents don't want their daughters educated. She was saying that Muslim parents don't want their daughters to go away to college, not that they don't want them to attend college at all. There are a lot options here in the Detrot area that would allow a Muslim woman to get a good education while staying at home with their parents. The University of Michigan has a campus in Dearborn. You have Wayne State in Downtown Detroit which is probably 10-15 minutes from Dearborn. There are also good community colleges in the Detroit area.

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