NOT born this way...

[annalena]

c'mon, that's just too simple.

actually, all the christian explanations are too simple.

so it isn't that we are tempted because we live a fallen world? :twisted:

[jaelh]

c'mon, that's just too simple.

actually, all the christian explanations are too simple.

so it isn't that we are tempted because we live a fallen world? :twisted:

of course; but god lets us live in a fallen world..

:)

(nothing wrong with a simple explanation - they're better than the absurdly complex ones that make no sense)

[annalena]

I just don't care for simple explanations that ignore all facts of logic, like Christians like to do. Just take the facts and twist them long enough to come up with an "explanation".

[jaelh]

I just don't care for simple explanations that ignore all facts of logic, like Christians like to do. Just take the facts and twist them long enough to come up with an "explanation".

what logic is that one missing?

assuming you accept god etc..

it's kinda funny though objecting to ignoring logic when you're talking about a system that isn't based in logic :) while i think that argument IS pretty logical, I don't think logic is the measure against while discussing systems not based on it

[annalena]

had to read that last sentence multiple times ;)

i think logic should be the measure of a system, that's probably my point

what really bugs me is that christians never expect or ask anything, they just accept the way it happens and find an explanation. because god "never messes up". but maybe there is no explanation.

best example (I've just talked about this yesterday in another thread): little child dies. tragic. christians help themeslves by saying they go to heaven. so, it's actually a great thing they died (sarcasm) because they happily live in heaven from now on. what about your other kids. wouldn't you want the same for them if it means "jesus loved them so much" and if it is so uber awesome in heaven?

[celestial]

Just chiming in to say I've been around a lot of acronyms, but never heard QUILTBAG! I was scratching my head over that one.

I can assure you I was born this way. :gay-imgay: But it hardly matters. If someone feels compelled to love someone of the same gender, why shouldn't they? It doesn't hurt anyone, not any more than a man and a woman loving each other does. I don't really get the confusion here, and I don't get why people always jump to "but murderers/pedophiles were born that way too!!!111!!11" It's irrelevant whether they were born that way or not, it hurts others so it shouldn't be allowed. Being gay hurts no one, so it should. The end.

Edited to clarify that my frustration above is directed at the fundie types who make such arguments, not to ya'll posting on this thread!

[CanadianHippie]

of course; but god lets us live in a fallen world..

:)

(nothing wrong with a simple explanation - they're better than the absurdly complex ones that make no sense)

God let us fall... Who the hell puts a tree with forbidden fruit in a garden with two people who have free will, tells them not to touch it, and expects them to not touch it? I don't want people touching something I put it where it can't be touched.

[Mama Mia]

To the poster who said that people might be born with a tendency towards mental illness, but with effort and awareness it won't be full-blown .. um... no that is most definitely not always true. While MANY people with mental illness can have significant success with averting full-blown episodes, or even becoming asymptomatic it is not at all true that all people with mental illness are able to do that. To say it as a given makes it very, very difficult for people who don't respond well to medications , have side effects/medical conditions that prevent using medications, or whose mental illness is one that is so severe that they are still going to have very significant and noticeable behaviors even when on medication. This gives an attitude of " they don't HAVE to act so crazy, they just aren't trying hard enough" :doh: This can make dealing with the mental illness even more difficult.

Also -- "QUILTBAG" .. maybe if you are keeping the acronym to certain more enlightened groups .. but as a general acronym.. that is WAY to close to the TEABAG that the tea-partiers are called .. I first saw it and thought it must be some sort of derogatory term, with a meaning similar to 'teabagging" NOT good for PR. Not at all

[jaelh]

To the poster who said that people might be born with a tendency towards mental illness, but with effort and awareness it won't be full-blown .. um... no that is most definitely not always true. While MANY people with mental illness can have significant success with averting full-blown episodes, or even becoming asymptomatic it is not at all true that all people with mental illness are able to do that. To say it as a given makes it very, very difficult for people who don't respond well to medications , have side effects/medical conditions that prevent using medications, or whose mental illness is one that is so severe that they are still going to have very significant and noticeable behaviors even when on medication. This gives an attitude of " they don't HAVE to act so crazy, they just aren't trying hard enough" :doh: This can make dealing with the mental illness even more difficult.

Of course you're right, and I should have put caveats in to indicate that! sorry and thank you for the reminder. I certainly didn't mean it as an imperative, I typed without realising.

[jaelh]

I don't want people touching something I put it where it can't be touched.

I do it with my dog often enough - not an apple, obviously, but woof learning not to go after whatever she wants is part of her training.

(if it's worth anything, of course, out of the way. but i'd like to think that we'll get to a point where she can be trusted. more or less)

society does it all the time - eg: the lure of the scantily clad woman to poor, unable to control themselves men; expensive goods in front of those that can't afford them etc...

(shrug) I have no particular goat in the fight, but I don't think the free nature bit of religious traditions is logically problematic. it's the wrong argument for the issue.

[Vex]

Just chiming in to say I've been around a lot of acronyms, but never heard QUILTBAG! I was scratching my head over that one.

I can assure you I was born this way. :gay-imgay: But it hardly matters. If someone feels compelled to love someone of the same gender, why shouldn't they? It doesn't hurt anyone, not any more than a man and a woman loving each other does. I don't really get the confusion here, and I don't get why people always jump to "but murderers/pedophiles were born that way too!!!111!!11" It's irrelevant whether they were born that way or not, it hurts others so it shouldn't be allowed. Being gay hurts no one, so it should. The end.

Edited to clarify that my frustration above is directed at the fundie types who make such arguments, not to ya'll posting on this thread!

I agree with ALL of this, down to never having heard 'QUILTBAG'. Maybe it's not acceptable these days, but I tend to go with LGBT.

Honestly, this whole thread stings.

[FlorenceHamilton]

My personal belief is that everyone's sexual orientation is somewhat fluid. Some of us are more fluid than others. For some of us, the attraction to the same or the opposite gender is so strong that we are not conscious of any attraction the other way. For others, attractions to people are more evenly divided and so we are aware of the fact that both/other genders are part of our sexual awareness.

There is a big part of gender identification and sexual attraction that is hard wired. This is not a moral judgement, just a fact.

Then there is the moral/ethical issue. Does this behavior hurt other people? If yes, then society cannot condone it. If no, then it is a private matter.

End.of.discussion.

[bea]

Remember, though, that these are people who feel that the behavior of other people DOES hurt them. Just knowing gay people EXIST, they argue, offends their delicate sensibilities.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Remember, though, that these are people who feel that the behavior of other people DOES hurt them. Just knowing gay people EXIST, they argue, offends their delicate sensibilities.

Actually, they just thump on a few phrases in their bahbuls.

In defense of the bible, though, it was written in a completely different time. In the Bronze Age, there were only about 50 million people on earth. Manpower was the most important energy source. More manpower equalled more political power and more wealth. The fact that every sperm was sacred had real meaning in the living world.

We now have 7 billion people. Manpower has become so diminished in importance that in China, they send a bunch of guys swimming in an oil spill with brushes to clean it up. Our own government does not prioritize educating its children, does not see fit to feed and house the poor. Even the fundies only seek to increase the human mass of their cult, not the rest of humanity.

The fact is that ridding ourselves of excess sperm in ways that are mutually agreed upon by adult humans is a private matter.

My sensibilites are offended by Snookie. But frankly, if other people enjoy her persona....so be it.

[Boogalou]

Just chiming in to say I've been around a lot of acronyms, but never heard QUILTBAG! I was scratching my head over that one.

I can assure you I was born this way. :gay-imgay: But it hardly matters. If someone feels compelled to love someone of the same gender, why shouldn't they? It doesn't hurt anyone, not any more than a man and a woman loving each other does. I don't really get the confusion here, and I don't get why people always jump to "but murderers/pedophiles were born that way too!!!111!!11" It's irrelevant whether they were born that way or not, it hurts others so it shouldn't be allowed. Being gay hurts no one, so it should. The end.

Edited to clarify that my frustration above is directed at the fundie types who make such arguments, not to ya'll posting on this thread!

QFT, especially the bolded. And I think that was the author's main point.

And now too many people have not liked QUILTBAG so I will stop using it. What is the proper acronym? LGBTTIQQ2SA? LGBTQQIAAP? or just LGBT?

[turquoise]

This reminds me of the arguments about whether or not Obama is Muslim. As if it should matter what his religion is... When I heard him and his supporters saying he is Christian, it sometimes came across to me as if they were saying "no, he's not something bad." I wanted to hear someone point out that the U.S. Constitution includes freedom of religion, and being a Muslim does not disqualify anyone from public office.

I don't know if sexual orientation is determined by heredity, or environment or personal choice (my guess is that in most cases it's some combination of factors) but ultimately I don't care. Assuming that no one is being harmed, other people's private lives are not my business.

[BlackHawk]

I dislike the term QUILTBAG as much as I dislike SOFFA... Why do we need to name acronyms after objects...

That said, I'm not piping in to the actual discussion because of many reasons. I prefer GLBT to QUILTBAG. On a related note, why suddenly is it LGBT VS GLBT? And why does that L coming first vs second get me yelled at a lot at the local GLBT center?

[celestial]

Remember, though, that these are people who feel that the behavior of other people DOES hurt them. Just knowing gay people EXIST, they argue, offends their delicate sensibilities.

Remember? How could I possibly forget? They are quite vocal about it. And yet, even if they think the mere existence of my woman-loving ways is hurting them, the fact remains that it's not. So I will carry on my merry way, hoping but not expecting that someday they will stop behaving like idiots.

[celestial]

What is the proper acronym? LGBTTIQQ2SA? LGBTQQIAAP?

I appreciate that you are endeavoring to use the best wording possible to describe the community. But I did have to :lol: a bit at those insanely long and complicated acronyms! I personally use LGBT. That is fairly well accepted, though of course there are those who don't feel it's inclusive enough and I hear what they're saying. I have also seen LGBTQI. Any longer than that seems cumbersome, but that's just me. Maybe I'm not an acronym person.

[celestial]

And with that post, I AM the sin in the camp! Glad to no longer be a frumper lover. :D

[Boogalou]

I appreciate that you are endeavoring to use the best wording possible to describe the community. But I did have to :lol: a bit at those insanely long and complicated acronyms! I personally use LGBT. That is fairly well accepted, though of course there are those who don't feel it's inclusive enough and I hear what they're saying. I have also seen LGBTQI. Any longer than that seems cumbersome, but that's just me. Maybe I'm not an acronym person.

OK, I'll stick with LGBT. That I can remember. Plus, I love acronyms! (AKA: ILA!)

[Vex]

I'm gay and I use LGBT, as do friends of mine who are bi or gay. It's good to see people really trying to be respectful and inclusive.

[Cassandra]

How relevant... I just wrote a final paper on this topic :-x

From a purely biological/evolution of human behavior standpoint, no one is 'born this way'. Human behavior is a result of the complex interactions of genes and the environment. However, that doesn't mean that people's sexual preferences are mutable.

Also, QUILTBAG......at least its easy to say....