Anna T - Another Ridiculous Breastfeeding/Laziness post

[atheistjd]

So our dear Anna T's latest post is all about how:

1) Breastfeeding is SOOOOO easy... and she can say this because she's had a few minor bumps in the road along the way and thus is entitled to tell everyone else they're doing it wrong if they're not breastfeeding, find it hard to breastfeed, or give up too easily after trying to breastfeed.

But basically it's supposed to be pretty much straightforward, or our species wouldn't have survived. Throw in the facts that nutritionally speaking, it's perfectly composed to meet the baby's needs, it's free, and you don't have to prepare and wash bottles, not to mention worry about hygiene when you're out and about - and there you have why I love it so much.

And, obvi, obligatory working women are bad dig:

And let's face it, the number one reason mothers switch to formula (at least here) is because of going back to work. I know only few people for whom pumping had worked out long-term, and even if it does, it just isn't the same as nursing (although definitely preferable to formula).

2) Nursing is awesome because it gives you a chance to REST. Yay rest!! I love rest! Must. Not. Work. Too. Hard.

Most of the time, on many busy days, nursing is what allows us to put up our feet and rest, at least for a little while, without feeling guilty. We often try to do too much, and find it difficult to switch to a different mode once we have a baby - and nursing is just the thing to force us to slow down, for our own good. It's healthy, it's natural, it's simple, it involves sitting down for regular periods every day and cuddling a sweet baby.

Trust Anna T - she knows, based solely on her own personal experience, that EVERYONE needs what she needs. If not, you're just lying to yourself.

Because let's face it, we need to rest, we need to slow down, whether we acknowledge it or not.

3) Because you breastfeed - NO ONE ELSE CAN TOUCH YOUR CHILD OR HELP WITH CHILDCARE OR YOUR CHILD WILL DIE. Srsly. Don't do it.

it can be so tempting to say to our dear husband (or whoever there is to help us out), "here, just hold the baby - and I'll do those dishes"... but no. The baby needs us, and us alone. Someone else can do the dishes, but no one can nurse our baby.

She drives me nuts... I have never seen anyone else so deluded into thinking their experience is the only experience. WTH causes that? Isolation? Self-righteousness? How can one person be SO SURE they know what everyone else is doing wrong??

Also, really? The baby only needs a mom? I thought we hated the ebil single mother. The cognitive dissonance that is required for the "mothers must be at home because they are the only competent child-raisers" trope to mesh with the "single mothers are evil; every home must have a father; teh gays are evil because you need a man and woman to raise a family" arguments... it boggles the mind.

[Clementine]

I wonder if she has some kind of neuropsychiatric diagnosis. Her black and white thinking where she thinks that everybody is just like her, reacts like her and has the same needs and the fact that the everyday life seems to make her completely exhausted reminds me of a relative of mine who has Asperger's syndrome.

[atheistjd]

I wonder if she has some kind of neuropsychiatric diagnosis. Her black and white thinking where she thinks that everybody is just like her, reacts like her and has the same needs and the fact that the everyday life seems to make her completely exhausted reminds me of a relative of mine who has Asperger's syndrome.

I never thought of it that way, but it definitely seems possible (I hate diagnosing strangers over the internet as much as the next rational person, but seriously - her way of thinking and energy levels just strike me as off).

[ilovetchotchkes]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm pregnant and nursing a toddler and it is HELL ON EARTH. She's full of crap. So many women struggle with breastfeeding, I lucked out, I've only had a few problems, but NOW we're meeting the bumps in the road. I love it for some of the same reasons- whipping out a boob is infinitely easy to someone like me w/ a learning disorder than trying to figure out formula to water ratio when I'm half asleep, BUT THERE ARE WAYS AROUND THAT. Premade formula, pre measuring everything before you leave the house/go to bed (for midnight feedings).

Rest? oh honey, if you wanted uninterrupted sleep you shouldn't have kids forget breastfeeding vs formula feeding, either way, kiss your sleeping in goodbye for the next 18+ years.

[tankgirl]

I might get slammed but I agree on a few points she makes, what I agree with is in the first few weeks, really baby does need Mom most of all, I mean her sounds are all that baby really knew in the womb, most women with a healthy term pregnancy, do get those few weeks before going back to work, if they are working moms, to try and heal there bodies and to bond with their babies. It sucks woman aren't given more time for this, especially if things don't go to plan and bed rest, eats into your leave. But past a few weeks, I agree with you, baby begins to benefit more and more from time with the rest of the family.

I also think with a very young baby, who unless the parents are damn lucky, or they Babywise/Feberise them, are not sleeping through the night, taking feeding time, breast or bottle as time to rest is a brillant and often neccessary thing to do. I don't think with young kids it is a lazy thing, more a keep your sanity thing. I mean that time saved me quiet a bit. But I disagree you can't get that same time with a bottle. Other then agreeing long term pumping is a giant pain in the ass, that many Mom's find hard to keep up, though not from laziness, it can be done.

I disagree with her logic about the ease of breastfeeding though. Breastfeeding is a learned skill, apes that have not watched a baby be raised often have difficulties with things like breastfeeding with out help. We as a species learn things like breastfeeding by watching those mothers around us and having help from them when things get tough. That is not as common today, since we as a culture are more modest about how we breastfeed and more people are choosing formula, especially in cultures were women did not grow up seeing others breastfeeding as the norm or at all. Second, there was a back up plan, wet nurses. Not just rich people used the idea of having others breastfeed their children. In some places, it is not considered odd at all to breastfeed a realtives child, long term or even just to give Mom a break. Also animal milk was used to as a back up food. Breastfeeding has so many benefits, but one thing is it is not easy, possible or practical for everyone.

[Rosa]

That attitude makes me so mad, and it's counterproductive - if it's supposed to be easy, then when it's hard people feel like they failed and just stop. So if you want to promote breastfeeding, acting like it's instinctive and easy instead of a skill that women learn (if their bodies cooperate) is counterproductive.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I might get slammed but I agree on a few points she makes, what I agree with is in the first few weeks, really baby does need Mom most of all, I mean her sounds are all that baby really knew in the womb, most women with a healthy term pregnancy, do get those few weeks before going back to work, if they are working moms, to try and heal there bodies and to bond with their babies. It sucks woman aren't given more time for this, especially if things don't go to plan and bed rest, eats into your leave. But past a few weeks, I agree with you, baby begins to benefit more and more from time with the rest of the family.

I also think with a very young baby, who unless the parents are damn lucky, or they Babywise/Feberise them, are not sleeping through the night, taking feeding time, breast or bottle as time to rest is a brillant and often neccessary thing to do. I don't think with young kids it is a lazy thing, more a keep your sanity thing. I mean that time saved me quiet a bit. But I disagree you can't get that same time with a bottle. Other then agreeing long term pumping is a giant pain in the ass, that many Mom's find hard to keep up, though not from laziness, it can be done.

I disagree with her logic about the ease of breastfeeding though. Breastfeeding is a learned skill, apes that have not watched a baby be raised often have difficulties with things like breastfeeding with out help. We as a species learn things like breastfeeding by watching those mothers around us and having help from them when things get tough. That is not as common today, since we as a culture are more modest about how we breastfeed and more people are choosing formula, especially in cultures were women did not grow up seeing others breastfeeding as the norm or at all. Second, there was a back up plan, wet nurses. Not just rich people used the idea of having others breastfeed their children. In some places, it is not considered odd at all to breastfeed a realtives child, long term or even just to give Mom a break. Also animal milk was used to as a back up food. Breastfeeding has so many benefits, but one thing is it is not easy, possible or practical for everyone.

Formula has believe it or not, been around since 1867! It was created because babies were not doing well on just cows milk or just goats milk.

I'm a breastfeeder, but honestly HONESTLY (and they may take away my lactation card for this) if you're in a 1st world country, where water is plentiful and clean, I don't see any reason why people get so rabid about how babies are fed.

[Lunatic]

I was one of three where I worked (we all had our babies at the same time) that were pumping AND breastfeeding when at home. We all nursed for over a year. We didn't think it was a big deal and it wasn't. A lot of people do a mix of nursing, bottle feeding, pumping, whatever works for you! Babies are flexible, they'll adjust.

[atheistjd]

I might get slammed but I agree on a few points she makes, what I agree with is in the first few weeks, really baby does need Mom most of all, I mean her sounds are all that baby really knew in the womb, most women with a healthy term pregnancy, do get those few weeks before going back to work, if they are working moms, to try and heal there bodies and to bond with their babies. It sucks woman aren't given more time for this, especially if things don't go to plan and bed rest, eats into your leave. But past a few weeks, I agree with you, baby begins to benefit more and more from time with the rest of the family.

I also think with a very young baby, who unless the parents are damn lucky, or they Babywise/Feberise them, are not sleeping through the night, taking feeding time, breast or bottle as time to rest is a brillant and often neccessary thing to do. I don't think with young kids it is a lazy thing, more a keep your sanity thing. I mean that time saved me quiet a bit. But I disagree you can't get that same time with a bottle. Other then agreeing long term pumping is a giant pain in the ass, that many Mom's find hard to keep up, though not from laziness, it can be done.

I disagree with her logic about the ease of breastfeeding though. Breastfeeding is a learned skill, apes that have not watched a baby be raised often have difficulties with things like breastfeeding with out help. We as a species learn things like breastfeeding by watching those mothers around us and having help from them when things get tough. That is not as common today, since we as a culture are more modest about how we breastfeed and more people are choosing formula, especially in cultures were women did not grow up seeing others breastfeeding as the norm or at all. Second, there was a back up plan, wet nurses. Not just rich people used the idea of having others breastfeed their children. In some places, it is not considered odd at all to breastfeed a realtives child, long term or even just to give Mom a break. Also animal milk was used to as a back up food. Breastfeeding has so many benefits, but one thing is it is not easy, possible or practical for everyone.

I agree in the first few weeks - although I still think dads, partners, or other family members & friends can help. It is one thing to say mom is "best" - another to say mom is "everything." Plus, her youngest is 15 months old... time to let dad hold her, no?

I also agree that the "nursing as rest" multitasking works out quite nicely - I just don't think most other people (although I get that most parents of newborns, or parents generally are worn out) are so OBSESSED with resting, napping, laying down, relaxing, etc. (although maybe in the beginning when you are getting no sleep; however, Anna has always been like this. And, as noted, the youngest is now 15 months).

Bolded is QFT...

[tankgirl]

Yeah, I know formula is not a new modern thing, there have been so many different versions over time, I am sure there have been concoctions of things for babies 100's of years before a company ever thought to start making formula.

As to your second point, I go back and forth on this. As a feminist I say to each their own. But I do have problems with how formula is pushed on Mother's, especially poor Mother's. They think formula is great but then can't foot the bill every month even on goverment assistance so they just start to water bottles down, to get the formula to last longer, it can lead down a slippery slope.

Also I have watched Mother's who were never warned about how formula reacts so differently on a babies stomach. My neighbor for example was given bad advice in the hospital, and a few other things went down, so her doctor talked her into formula. The baby was thriving on breastmilk, but has since been moved up to a really expensive formula she can't afford, even with the cans wic gives her, otherwise the baby projectile vomits, and has horrific constipation on other formulas. She wishes she could go back to breastfeeding but of course she can't. Sometiimes formula is not best for some kids. Though some formula feeding Mothers will tell you otherwise. I have had some militant formula feeding Moms tell me there is always a perfect formula for every child and I do disagree with that one totally. But most kids can survive on it, though some will not thrive on it.

But all this said I would never say anything to another Mother about their choices, they aren't my boobs or my kid, so I have no right to judge their choices at all. I am not in their shoes.

ETA-

Yeah, I had a feeling she wasn't talking about a newborn, and that's why I was specific to say, I only think this with a tiny babe. I also suspect women like this that don't let their husbands touch their kids have a few issues, one they find them too stupid to do it all as well as them, they can't play martyr with help and lastly cause many of these men probably see young kids as "women's work". They will deal with the kid when it's spanking time or they can start talking.

[VeraAnne]

My first son was a micropreemie and I tried my hardest to pump. I lasted 2 months, barely, doing everything in my power to keep up my supply. I took the drugs, I pumped like crazy, I even put up his little picture in my nursing area to try to get things going.

Then the first time I tried to nurse him at the breast, he turned blue. Talk about trauma. We formula fed after that, and it was all fine. Sometimes nursing doesn't work.

[Arielkay]

Militant formula feeding moms? Where are these women? They sure as hell don't live near me.

This is a topic that really irks me. I formula fed both my babies. I had my reasons, among them that I had extremely difficult pregnancies and needed a break, I needed medication that would interfere, I didn't have a strong support system, I wanted my husband to help out more, oh and most important - IT WASN'T ANYONE ELSE'S BUSINESS. Formula feeders really don't need anymore guilt from other moms. We get enough on every single can of formula - they are required to say "breast is best" on each can. There are some breastfeeding crazies that will go so far as to encourage HIV infected women in Africa to breastfeed their babies over giving them formula when it is well known that the virus can pass through breast milk. GOOD GRIEF.

If a woman chooses to breastfeed, that's great, I don't care, but I resent it when she tries to make other moms feel guilty. I got that a lot when my girls were infants. Hell, even my MOTHER was asked whether or not I was breastfeeding. Women at church (fundies) gave me heck over it. But this is a cross political thing - liberal women will also give other women hell over not breastfeeding. In my mother's day, a lot of women gave their babies formula and no one thought anything of it. But now try to find anything positive about formula feeding on the internet. I couldn't. I found one book that said we weren't sinners - and the reviews on that book I couldn't reprint anywhere. It was sick what these women said.

This issue even divided a friend and me. She told me I was a terrible mother because I didn't breastfeed like she did (for 5 YEARS on one kid). I didn't speak to her for several months. She told me breastfed babies had fewer allergies (her daughter has many more allergies than mine), bottle fed babies are overweight (mine were both small), and on and on. She is completely obsessed with the attachment parenting movement - the whole don't ever drop your baby for a single second. And men are only meant to be breadwinners. You sleep with your baby. Huh, I wonder how well that works out for them? I wouldn't blame their husbands for getting tired of that if it went on for many months or even years at at time. Work hard as hell, but no sex, no affection from me - I'm married to the baby now.

And like another poster said, breastfeeding isn't necessarily easier. You won't get sleep either way - in fact, you might get less sleep since you are the only one who can feed the baby at night. Some babies don't get enough milk and go hungry, but La Leche League and some fanatics will encourage these women to keep breastfeeding. Some women get horrible breast infections, also too bad. And formula is not rocket science - I had little premade measured cups of it I did myself that were not expensive. I kept them in the diaper bag and either I or my husband could make a bottle in a few seconds.

The whole point of being a feminist is choice. You can be lazy with a bottle and with a breast. Or you can say this child rearing business is too damn hard (sometimes it is!) and skip it all together. Whatever works for you.

Sorry about the soap box! I just got a lot of grief on this issue!

[YPestis]

By now, I'm used to Anna T's insistence that HER WAY is the RIGHT WAY and if she found something easy then so must others or they are BAD MOTHERS. Plus, she must add the standard dig against working women to end all posts regarding motherhood. You know, the last time she wrote so much hate about working mothers was when she was one! I wonder if there's something going on in her life currently.

[VeraAnne]

You sleep with your baby. Huh, I wonder how well that works out for them? I wouldn't blame their husbands for getting tired of that if it went on for many months or even years at at time. Work hard as hell, but no sex, no affection from me - I'm married to the baby now.

I totally agree with what you're saying, but I do want to say that co-sleeping doesn't have to mean an end to sex. Trust me, you can still make it happen. :dance:

[Arielkay]

Oh, I'm sure they can, VeraAnne. I'm not necessarily knocking cosleeping. But there seem to be some women that want to be totally hands off with their husbands - I read where some actually sleep in a different room from their husbands with the baby for months or years at a time because baby needs them and only them. Kind of creepy.

[VeraAnne]

Yeah, kicking your husband out to sleep with the baby crosses the line, imo.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I totally agree with what you're saying, but I do want to say that co-sleeping doesn't have to mean an end to sex. Trust me, you can still make it happen. :dance:

That's what guest bedrooms are for... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

[Arielkay]

So that's why they have guest bedrooms . . . I wish I had one!

Don't get me wrong - I don't think you owe everything to your man. I mean, if you aren't ready for sex for a while after expelling a human life out of your body then he can deal with it. But these ladies get extreme.

Anyway, I think we both only thought of sleep when we saw a bed in the first several weeks after the babies came home!

[lexiloumarie]

Militant formula feeding moms? Where are these women? They sure as hell don't live near me.

This is a topic that really irks me. I formula fed both my babies. I had my reasons, among them that I had extremely difficult pregnancies and needed a break, I needed medication that would interfere, I didn't have a strong support system, I wanted my husband to help out more, oh and most important - IT WASN'T ANYONE ELSE'S BUSINESS. Formula feeders really don't need anymore guilt from other moms. We get enough on every single can of formula - they are required to say "breast is best" on each can. There are some breastfeeding crazies that will go so far as to encourage HIV infected women in Africa to breastfeed their babies over giving them formula when it is well known that the virus can pass through breast milk. GOOD GRIEF.

If a woman chooses to breastfeed, that's great, I don't care, but I resent it when she tries to make other moms feel guilty. I got that a lot when my girls were infants. Hell, even my MOTHER was asked whether or not I was breastfeeding. Women at church (fundies) gave me heck over it. But this is a cross political thing - liberal women will also give other women hell over not breastfeeding. In my mother's day, a lot of women gave their babies formula and no one thought anything of it. But now try to find anything positive about formula feeding on the internet. I couldn't. I found one book that said we weren't sinners - and the reviews on that book I couldn't reprint anywhere. It was sick what these women said.

This issue even divided a friend and me. She told me I was a terrible mother because I didn't breastfeed like she did (for 5 YEARS on one kid). I didn't speak to her for several months. She told me breastfed babies had fewer allergies (her daughter has many more allergies than mine), bottle fed babies are overweight (mine were both small), and on and on. She is completely obsessed with the attachment parenting movement - the whole don't ever drop your baby for a single second. And men are only meant to be breadwinners. You sleep with your baby. Huh, I wonder how well that works out for them? I wouldn't blame their husbands for getting tired of that if it went on for many months or even years at at time. Work hard as hell, but no sex, no affection from me - I'm married to the baby now.

And like another poster said, breastfeeding isn't necessarily easier. You won't get sleep either way - in fact, you might get less sleep since you are the only one who can feed the baby at night. Some babies don't get enough milk and go hungry, but La Leche League and some fanatics will encourage these women to keep breastfeeding. Some women get horrible breast infections, also too bad. And formula is not rocket science - I had little premade measured cups of it I did myself that were not expensive. I kept them in the diaper bag and either I or my husband could make a bottle in a few seconds.

The whole point of being a feminist is choice. You can be lazy with a bottle and with a breast. Or you can say this child rearing business is too damn hard (sometimes it is!) and skip it all together. Whatever works for you.

Sorry about the soap box! I just got a lot of grief on this issue!

Only going to speak to the bold part. Depending where in Africa they are, HIV + women are encouraged to breast feed because the water being used to mix the powered formula (the kind usually given) will kill the baby faster the the HIV will. Sadly.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

That's what guest bedrooms are for... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

And the living room floor. And the kitchen counter. And...Well, let's just say that co-sleeping actually made our sex life better! We had gotten into a boring, married-people slump, and being forced to get creative was marvelous for us. :dance:

[VeraAnne]

Haha same here, SquirrelySquirrel. Who knew that the office had so many possibilities?

[Feberin]

What about wet nurses? I know it's still breastfeeding but I would assume not as good of an option since your milk is made for your baby and I would think professional wet nurses would nurse for years after have their own babies. I pumped at work for my son's year and had enough milk that when mixed with cow milk after a year (1/3 cow milk and 2/3 breastmilk) it lasted until he was 18 months. I know that I was lucky with an awesome milk supply but I know many others who were similarly lucky and had breasts that responded to the pumps and were able to pump for the first year (if anyone is pregnant and thinking about pumping at work invest in a good pump like medela and get/make something to make it hands free so you can multi-task and it isn't as boring).

I agree with her little comment about the baby needing mom if mom is breastfeeding if she's talking about a newborn. There were many times during my son first week were I started something only to have to stop because he needed to eat. However once he got to be around two months or so it was possible to somewhat plan around his feedings since he ate every two to three hours duing the day so if I had something I wanted to get done like eat a meal then do the dishes then I'd feed him and know I had some time to get stuff done. And from day one my husband was involved and he did 99% of the burping if he was home. He is awesome at getting babies to burp!

I loved sometimes just sitting around and nursing but I had one child. I think with the next one I'll fequently be breastfeeding while reading my son a book or coloring a picture or whatever it takes to keep him in one place and not too wild and crazy while I feed his little brother or sister. I loved breastfeeding and it was an awesome experience for me and one of the things that I'm looking forward to doing with my next one. However I don't think I'd use the words easy or natural since I think it's a bit tricky at first and people shouldn't just assume they'll get it from day one and not learn about it before the baby. I took a breastfeeding class and I think that helped me understand a bit about how to hold the baby and such. But even with that class when my son was first born and only a few minutes old and the midwife suggested I nurse him I was hopeless and needed help getting him to latch on propperly. If Anna T. is trying to help promote breastfeeding she's failing and actually encouraging more readers of her blog to use formula because they have the mistaken idea that breastfeeding should be a simple natural thing.

[Feberin]

Militant formula feeding moms? Where are these women? They sure as hell don't live near me.

I would put the women who compare breastfeeding to pooping in that catagory. I think either option that you choose you'll get people who will come down hard against you. I got lots of comments for breastfeeding my son until 19 months. I think he was only a couple months old when some older relatives started asking when I was going to wean him. And by six months I got lots of "you're still breastfeeding"! comments.

[dawbs]

I find that most people in these debates (luckily not on FJ) make me stabby.

On point 1--it is 'supposed' to, in some ways be easy. She *is* right that if the system failed to often, our species would be extinct. But it could fail in, say (made up number, obviously) 50% of cases and we'd survive just fine--which is actually, not OK when your kid might land on the wrong side of that 50%. It's 'supposed' to be easy to have sex too, and look how many manuals there are in the world for that.

As someone who works full time and is still nursing a 15 month old, the idea that it's super-de-duper-zomgs!eleven!-hard to pump is absurd (I'd rather not pump. And it is hard. But it's also doable. I know SAHMoms [like the one who does child care for me some days] who were successful exclusive pumpers). (And I say all of that with the knowledge that I've been *really* lucky and it has been 'easy' [relatively] for me.

Pt 2)

I've never found it restful [i can't cosleep]

I mean, yes, I've fallen asleep in the rocker between 3 and 4 AM. I'd be better off sleeping in my bed (besides the fact that I wouldn't wake up with my neck in the shape of a question mark).

I would have had (conservative estimate from counting on my fingers) over 400 hours MORE of sleep in the last year if I hadn't Breast Fed my kid.

Pt 3)

it can be so tempting to say to our dear husband (or whoever there is to help us out), "here, just hold the baby - and I'll do those dishes"... but no. The baby needs us, and us alone. Someone else can do the dishes, but no one can nurse our baby

.

There are *still* times when I'd rather wash the dishes than nurse the baby. I don't find this a 'pro' of BFing at all!

I know that she'd think it sounds hateful, but, as much as I love my kid, for me, it's mentally, physically, and emotionally exhausting to be the source of all nutrition (and sometimes comfort) to my kid when she was a week old. It's less exhausting now, but still, at 8:20 tonight, when she has her before-bed nursing, I might wish I was eating dinner, making dinner, reading my book, or taking care of one of the chores that my husband is doing, instead of nursing her.

What a way to turn women off from BFing!

[Kitten]

Just gotta add my 2 cents - breastfeeding is not an either/or situation - it may not be instinctual for some people, but for others, it's pretty darn easy. I only read a couple of the usual pregnancy/birth books before my first, and when they brought him in for his first nursing, the nurse thought I was an experienced mom by the way I popped him on the breast. It really was that easy for me, plus I had enough milk to feed seven babies, and letdown was not a problem when I went back to work and had to pump. All my kids were raised on breast milk, even if during the day it came from a bottle.

Breastfeeding is just like any other "skill" - some people pick it up on the first try, and others never really master it, no matter how hard they try (Michelle comes to mind). I don't begrudge any mom the support of a nursing consultant or La Leche or other moms if she needs it, but it's simply not true that every mom needs that kind of support/instruction.

Now, I did this back in the Dark Ages, when there was no support for nursing moms in the workplace, so I certainly could have used a better environment and more time (I had to use my break times and lunch times to pump), but that's another issue entirely. I envy the moms at my company now - they have a separate room that is just for them to use when pumping, with a comfy chair and a refrigerator and a lock on the door. I would have killed for that kind of setup. :D