Kochava's Shabbat toothbrush

[lizzy]

I suspect they are faux Jews based on the pork thing. Even Reform Jews are not generally pork eaters, and no one would serve that at Passover. I have a really embarrassing story regarding shrimp, though. Our temple children's group was discussing Passover foods and my daughter suggested shrimp to deadening silence. My husband and kids love the stuff and apparently she did not realize that it was one of the foods Jews don't eat. :oops: She is good at getting her parents' religions mixed up or confused with each other. My rabbi usually will say, "Wrong religion, honey."

I work with a Reform Jew and he eats bacon and pepperoni pizza. Maybe he is just an exception. Can't say I've met many Jews.

[Dinorah]

Having lots of doubts is part of Judaism. As in, having lots of doubts is acceptable and common throughout all branches about Judaism. Hell, the name that we are called in the Bible, Bnei Yisrael, the children of Israel means the children of the one that wrestled with God (i.e. Jacob). Of course, that wrestling was more physical, but I like to think that it is a metaphorical and an apt way to describe Jews.

Drawing the line between culture and religion in Judaism is difficult. It's cultural practice are often religious in nature, but if you appreciate the religious rituals of Judaism, it hardly matters if you believe in it word for word. For all intents and purposes, I'm an atheist. Or maybe a pantheist. Or maybe a panentheist. Whatever. I like to describe my beliefs about God with the Golda Meir quote "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God." But the religious aspects of Judaism still have meaning for me, even if they don't exactly match my personal theology.

Also, to be clear, I'm really not trying to push you into anything and I'm afraid that that's how I'm coming off. I'm really just trying to educate people about Judaism.

Also, I can understand that European Jews would be wary of outsiders. I spent a summer in Argentina where every Jewish institution has a blast wall thanks to the bombing of the AMIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_Bombing) and to gain entrance into synagogues you have to be with somebody who already belongs or somehow prove your Judaism. I can imagine they have a similar wariness in Europe.

That's ok, it doesn't feel like pushiness at all, it's all great food for thought.

As to the wariness, concerns for safety are totally understandable, but sometimes it feels more like well, snootiness, than anything else, extending sometimes even to other Jews with different backgrounds and cultures (and seems to come from communities as a whole, rather than from individual Jews).

[pomology]

As to the wariness, concerns for safety are totally understandable, but sometimes it feels more like well, snootiness, than anything else, extending sometimes even to other Jews with different backgrounds and cultures (and seems to come from communities as a whole, rather than from individual Jews).

Ah, well, I can't and won't try to explain away rudeness.

[pomology]

I work with a Reform Jew and he eats bacon and pepperoni pizza. Maybe he is just an exception. Can't say I've met many Jews.

My self-hating--Jew-but-Reform-synagogue-belonging grandmother served pig of some kind or another throughout my father's childhood. She probably still does, but not to us. And serving it on Passover wouldn't phase her any more than serving it any other day. Except she would never have hosted a Seder. But apparently buys matzah every year and suffers through a tiny piece and then ignores it for the rest of the holiday. Hell if I know why.

But I also have a Reform Jewish friend who eats pork and would probably eat pork during Passover, but apparently cares enough about Judaism to have texted me Shana Tova on Rosh Hashanah.

So I'd say it's very possible that these are real Jews.

[emmiedahl]

I work with a Reform Jew and he eats bacon and pepperoni pizza. Maybe he is just an exception. Can't say I've met many Jews.

Reform Jews make their own decisions regarding dietary laws and follow the ones that are personally meaningful, but eating pork on Passover would probably not be considered okay even among Reform communities. It's a cultural thing. Passover has special dietary rules, and even most Reform Jews (at least the ones I know) will eat Passover kosher for the holiday.

[lizzy]

Reform Jews make their own decisions regarding dietary laws and follow the ones that are personally meaningful, but eating pork on Passover would probably not be considered okay even among Reform communities. It's a cultural thing. Passover has special dietary rules, and even most Reform Jews (at least the ones I know) will eat Passover kosher for the holiday.

He probably does keep the Passover rules. We don't really discuss it much. He knows I'm Catholic and I know he's Jewish, but we don't have deep religious discussion. Kwim?

[antifundie]

I should have clarified--there was no pork at Passover!!! I don't remember everything we had, but I would have remembered that! They ate pork at other times, but not then, they weren't kosher except at Passover, etc.

I pretty sure they were Reform, although I think the guy was raised Conservative. He tried to explain it to me, but I didn't really understand at the time. His wife converted to Judaism (not Orthodox), and they had a real Jewish wedding, and she talked about her conversion.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I work with a Reform Jew and he eats bacon and pepperoni pizza. Maybe he is just an exception. Can't say I've met many Jews.

nope, you're right. almost all of the Reform Jews I know, happily enjoy treyf. :P

[Jezebel]

I suspect they are faux Jews based on the pork thing. Even Reform Jews are not generally pork eaters, and no one would serve that at Passover.

My stepdad's Jewish, and he eats pork, cheeseburgers, meat pizzas, and shrimp without hesitation. He's simply non-observant--he's Jewish by ethnicity and tradition (and proud of it), but he doesn't follow any of the religious practices. He's not a "faux Jew"; it's just that there's many different ways of being Jewish, including ways that seem to go against it.

I think even he would raise an eyebrow at seeing pork served at a Passover dinner--but since pork is his favorite meat, I doubt he'd object, much less refuse it. :lol:

[FaustianSlip]

As to the wariness, concerns for safety are totally understandable, but sometimes it feels more like well, snootiness, than anything else, extending sometimes even to other Jews with different backgrounds and cultures (and seems to come from communities as a whole, rather than from individual Jews).

Yeah, it happens sometimes. I had a pretty crappy experience with the Orthodox community in Hong Kong the first time I was down there (I wasn't even trying to attend their services, incidentally, just trying to get information on where the Liberal community meets), and in all honesty, I think that in a lot of places, the level of security required to get into synagogues goes way beyond common sense and crosses into the absurd. I've been to synagogues (and not in places like Argentina, where there have been recent incidents or places with a high degree of anti-semitism) where they demanded to search your bags, look at your passport, interrogated you about "how you found us" (um... your service times and location are listed on your website?)... really not a pleasant experience at all, and a huge turn-off if someone is visiting or new to the community, I think.

When I see things like that, I definitely have moments where I find myself thinking, "Jeez, and they wonder why so many people just throw in the towel and stop bothering to go to synagogue? Why would anyone put up with being treated like a criminal at your own house of worship?" That's not to snark on the people in these shuls, incidentally, the vast majority of whom I've found to be warm, welcoming and generally great, but in this mentality that pretends that security theater is going to keep us all safe. I mean, I doubt the attackers in Mumbai would have given up if asked for ID (or that a guard at the door interrogating people about their Jewishness would have prevented them from rappelling in the windows).

Also, how exactly do synagogues in Argentina get "proof" that someone's Jewish? The vast majority of Jews that I know, the unmarried ones, at least, couldn't provide any paper documentation as to their Jewishness (maybe their parents' ketubah, but who carries that around with them?). Ironically, the only young, single Jews I know of who would be likely to have irrefutable proof of their Jewishness on hand would be converts.

[emmiedahl]

Very true about proving one is Jewish--my mother married a Christian, no ketubah. I can recite common Hebrew prayers and curse in Yiddish though. If anyone questions my Jewishness at temple, I suppose I could tell them that I hope their eyes fall out of their head and that they burst into flame... they'd be like, yep, she's Jewish.

[pomology]

Also, how exactly do synagogues in Argentina get "proof" that someone's Jewish? The vast majority of Jews that I know, the unmarried ones, at least, couldn't provide any paper documentation as to their Jewishness (maybe their parents' ketubah, but who carries that around with them?). Ironically, the only young, single Jews I know of who would be likely to have irrefutable proof of their Jewishness on hand would be converts.

Well, when my family and I attended my host family's synagogue without my host family I just was like "I've been living with so-and-so" and they're like "Oh, right, you look familiar blah blah blah." When my mom when to synagogue alone, she convinced the guard she was Jewish by speaking Hebrew.

Then (this is slightly unrelated) up in Tucuman province we found a synagogue and my mother made talk to the guard in Spanish about where the Rabbi lived and so then we found his house and then my mother made me talk with the incredibly unwelcoming woman who answered us who clearly wanted nothing to do with us in Spanish before it was established that she spoke Hebrew and then she and my mom spoke Hebrew for a few awkward minutes before we left.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re security:

When traveling abroad, I've often been stopped by security at the synagogue, asked for my passport, had my bag searched and asked security questions.

Would it have prevented the Mumbai terrorist attack? I don't know. I do know that there really wasn't any security at that Chabad house - Chabad likes to have an open-door policy, and India has no history of antisemitism at all. I can tell you that my Chabad synagogue previously had pretty lax security, but the congregation felt after Mumbai that we needed to tighten things up, so we hire a police officer to be by the main entrance on Shabbat, and at other time you need to punch in a code or get buzzed in.

[FaustianSlip]

I don't have a particular issue showing my passport (though it raises the question of how anyone who's shomer Shabbos can come to your synagogue, since there's no eiruv, and I'm not going to leave my passport at shul overnight) or even a bag search, but a ten-minute interrogration (that's not an exaggeration) over how you found the synagogue, how you knew about services, why you're there on a Friday night, et cetera is way over the top, presuming the synagogue in question actually wants people to show up for services. You're putting the service times on a website, for crying out loud; how do you think people found the synagogue? And more to the point, is a terrorist going to say, "Oh, I found it through my local chapter of Al Qaeda"?

There's a difference between having some kind of security and treating your congregants like criminals (for instance, by making them go through a metal detector- also something I've personally experienced). I also find it interesting that this stuff seems to be way worse and in your face in non-Anglophone countries. I went to High Holy Days in Melbourne and aside from swinging by the shul office to pick up tickets for services, no one gave me a hard time at all. And honestly, if I were going to take a guess at whether Melbourne or Hong Kong is more likely to be hit by anti-semitic attacks, I'd go with Melbourne every day and twice on Sundays.

I'm not pooh-poohing security; I work in a job that requires a very high security threshold and deal with security restrictions and concerns daily, but there's no useful purpose to raking people over the coals when they're just trying to go to services. I used to think this was the exception and not the rule, but the more synagogues I visit abroad, the more I find out that that's not the case. It's completely possible to have a guard out front of the shul keeping an eye on who's coming and going and look out for anything unusual without browbeating people who are just trying to pray. Someone who really wants to hurt Jews (or Americans, or any specific group abroad) are going to find a way to do it, and a guard or two outside a building isn't going to stop them. Personally, I'd rather be able to go to shul without being harassed than live in a climate of fear where someone, somewhere might try and hurt me.

[LucySnowe]

I never ate pork until I lived with a guy who was more Jewish than I was, who loved pork chops with applesauce. (Admittedly, by that point I was a Kol Nidre Jew, but STILL.)

Okay, since this thread has turned into All Things Orthodox (which I think is cool): while at a Jewish historical museum in the Netherlands, I saw a video of an Orthodox wedding (filmed in that country), and when the groom put the bride's ring on her finger, she removed it at put it on a different finger. I laughed and nudged my husband, because he'd been aiming for my right hand so I had to maneuver us both so that he put my wedding ring on my left ring finger. But then in the video, the groom did the same moving-the-ring thing. And they both initially put the rings only up to the other person's first knuckle. Is this something traditional?

[bekkah]

I never thought about the whole toothbrush thing.

Anyway, talking about synagouges. I got to visit the ones in Kolkata, India. The Jewish population is very small now and you have to gain admittance through them. You can't walk into them, there are absolutely gorgeous though. I understand security issues and I think if they feel they need it then find. Its interesting, I eat no pork, no shellfish or no milk. I don't know if I mix things but geez I live kosher better then some Jews then. Never liked it, so I never eat it.

[Beeks]

I never ate pork until I lived with a guy who was more Jewish than I was, who loved pork chops with applesauce. (Admittedly, by that point I was a Kol Nidre Jew, but STILL.)

Okay, since this thread has turned into All Things Orthodox (which I think is cool): while at a Jewish historical museum in the Netherlands, I saw a video of an Orthodox wedding (filmed in that country), and when the groom put the bride's ring on her finger, she removed it at put it on a different finger. I laughed and nudged my husband, because he'd been aiming for my right hand so I had to maneuver us both so that he put my wedding ring on my left ring finger. But then in the video, the groom did the same moving-the-ring thing. And they both initially put the rings only up to the other person's first knuckle. Is this something traditional?

Yes, it is traditional to put the ring on the right pointer finger instead of the "ring finger." It only goes to the knuckle because most people have the ring sized to fit their left ring finger, because that's where they wear it. It has something to do with a disagreement over which finger is closest to the heart (I think).

[2xx1xy1JD]

I was told that it goes on the pointer finger during the ceremony, so the bride can point to the witnesses to show that it was done (since giving the ring with the declaration is the essential heart of the traditional Jewish wedding ceremony and the point that makes it all official), and then it's worn on the ring finger.

[Elster]

I'm Orthodox Jewish. The issue is that there are 39 categories of things you're not allowed to do on the Sabbath (usually mistranslated as 'work'). One category is squeezing something out, and another is smearing, both of which come into play when brushing one's teeth. The toothpaste is smeared and the water is squeezed out of the toothbrush. I own the product she's talking about. It has larger rubber bristles which are widely spaced, and you use a liquid like listerine on it instead of toothpaste, thus avoiding the problems.

I know this isn't as exciting an answer haha but just wanted to explain.

[thoughtful]

I never ate pork until I lived with a guy who was more Jewish than I was, who loved pork chops with applesauce.

Maybe his worship of Peter Brady (or possibly Humphrey Bogart) superseded his Judaism. :lol:

[Dinorah]

Yeah, it happens sometimes. I had a pretty crappy experience with the Orthodox community in Hong Kong the first time I was down there (I wasn't even trying to attend their services, incidentally, just trying to get information on where the Liberal community meets), and in all honesty, I think that in a lot of places, the level of security required to get into synagogues goes way beyond common sense and crosses into the absurd. I've been to synagogues (and not in places like Argentina, where there have been recent incidents or places with a high degree of anti-semitism) where they demanded to search your bags, look at your passport, interrogated you about "how you found us" (um... your service times and location are listed on your website?)... really not a pleasant experience at all, and a huge turn-off if someone is visiting or new to the community, I think.

When I see things like that, I definitely have moments where I find myself thinking, "Jeez, and they wonder why so many people just throw in the towel and stop bothering to go to synagogue? Why would anyone put up with being treated like a criminal at your own house of worship?" That's not to snark on the people in these shuls, incidentally, the vast majority of whom I've found to be warm, welcoming and generally great, but in this mentality that pretends that security theater is going to keep us all safe. I mean, I doubt the attackers in Mumbai would have given up if asked for ID (or that a guard at the door interrogating people about their Jewishness would have prevented them from rappelling in the windows).

Also, how exactly do synagogues in Argentina get "proof" that someone's Jewish? The vast majority of Jews that I know, the unmarried ones, at least, couldn't provide any paper documentation as to their Jewishness (maybe their parents' ketubah, but who carries that around with them?). Ironically, the only young, single Jews I know of who would be likely to have irrefutable proof of their Jewishness on hand would be converts.

Well, the experiences i had generally involved a young man playing Mossad agent and starting interrogations along the lines of "are you Jewish? If not do you know anyone who's Jewish" etc. (as if this could stop someone truly wanting to mae some kind of attack) and not being able to attend synagogue events that I'd actually learned about on the newspapers. Once I was told I couldn't attend a Purim event because it was "only for the community" after that the rabbi had been interviewed saying he wanted to open up to the entire city.

It's also interesting these events happened in continental Europe while in my experience synagogues in the Uk are much more relaxed, and I have the impression there's potentially more anti-semitism and therefore more risk in the UK than in Europe.

[FaustianSlip]

My UK Jewish experiences were generally very positive, as were my experiences in Australia recently (again, I start to wonder if it's something about Anglophone countries). At my synagogue in London when I studied abroad, there was a security guy outside the door who would take a look in your bag, but that was it. No weird interrogations or anything.

Are you in an area with a liberal synagogue? If you're interested in going and have been given a hard time before, I suggest calling or e-mailing the rabbi, explaining that you're interested in learning more about Judaism and want to attend services and see if that helps. They should be able to hook you up.