Other things of note from the J'Fetus episode

[Peas n carrots]

Speaking of obedience, out of 19 kids one of them has to be a little shit. We all know those kids...no matter how much discipline is meted out to them, they are still mischievous little shits. I happen to be one of them....no matter what my parents did to punish me, I would still do my own thing. I wasn't badly behaved in public, but I didn't really have any respect for authority either. Same too, with one of the being teh ghey....there has got to be one or two in there that is.

Btw isnt one of The Uterus sisters gay?

[Daenerys]

Speaking of obedience, out of 19 kids one of them has to be a little shit. We all know those kids...no matter how much discipline is meted out to them, they are still mischievous little shits. I happen to be one of them....no matter what my parents did to punish me, I would still do my own thing. I wasn't badly behaved in public, but I didn't really have any respect for authority either. Same too, with one of the being teh ghey....there has got to be one or two in there that is.

Btw isnt one of The Uterus sisters gay?

Yeah, her oldest sister is a lesbian. They've had family reunions so I'm not sure how that is explained to the kids... I mean she seems lovely and normal so it's proof to those kids that gays aren't 'evil' at least.

[Peas n carrots]

Yeah, her oldest sister is a lesbian. They've had family reunions so I'm not sure how that is explained to the kids... I mean she seems lovely and normal so it's proof to those kids that gays aren't 'evil' at least.

Yes. And unlike most other QF kids the Duggars have been exposed to many different people and places. Yes they live in a narrow world, but they have had a lot of exposure to the outside world in ways that most QF kids will never have. I can't imagine that hasn't had an impact on the family.

Maybe whenever the show finally ends, that is when we see the real impact of the exposure to the outside world happen. Right now it might be purely a case of keeping up appearances.

Finally, I have a feeling this pregnancy is going to end badly. I don't wish the ill but I think the Duggars are playing with fire at this point.

[Mais Pourquoi]

Speaking of obedience, out of 19 kids one of them has to be a little shit. We all know those kids...no matter how much discipline is meted out to them, they are still mischievous little shits.

I think James is the "little shit" in the Duggar family. He's adorable but doesn't seem as obedient as some of the other lost boys do.

[ilovetchotchkes]

Yes. And unlike most other QF kids the Duggars have been exposed to many different people and places. Yes they live in a narrow world, but they have had a lot of exposure to the outside world in ways that most QF kids will never have. I can't imagine that hasn't had an impact on the family.

Maybe whenever the show finally ends, that is when we see the real impact of the exposure to the outside world happen. Right now it might be purely a case of keeping up appearances.

Finally, I have a feeling this pregnancy is going to end badly. I don't wish the ill but I think the Duggars are playing with fire at this point.

I can't wait for the post show tell all novel. Seriously.

I have a bad feeling about #20 as well. :( as much as I dislike them, I hope that the baby and J'chelle make it through ok, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Daenerys]

I can't wait for the post show tell all novel. Seriously.

I have a bad feeling about #20 as well. :( as much as I dislike them, I hope that the baby and J'chelle make it through ok, but I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder how it would affect their faith... I mean if Jesus loves them so much and prayers are answered, why would mum/baby die?

[annalena]

This is one thing I NEVER understood about religion. Id it's so awesome in heaven and little children die because they're gonna be Jesus' dearest angels, why would you not want that for ALL your children then? (As twisted as this may sound). Do you guys know what I mean? If it's so great in heaven, wouldn't they wish for mom & baby to go there?

[bananacat]

It is unsettling indeed. Wow. It's just so sad. How are the kids gonna learn to say no? To others, like, Idk, assaulters, or even to their own parents. Oh, there's the point. No one wants them to be able to say NO. :(

This is a common game in fundie circles, and even Lisa Welchel (of The Facts of Life) brags about how she'll tell her son to kiss her or refuse his request to go to the bathroom just so he can practice obeying. Razing Ruth's family did a similar game, so when an adult at a gathering sexually abused her and her brother, she never questioned it or hesitated to obey or thought to report the abuse. Some man cornered her and her brother in a private area and told them to kiss each other and possibly other things, and of course they had both been taught to obey so the didn't even question it. And this is what the fundies want. They know that plenty of husbands will abuse their wives and parents will abuse their children, only they don't call it abuse and they think it's a good think that husbands and parents can do that.

[MamaJunebug]

This is one thing I NEVER understood about religion. Id it's so awesome in heaven and little children die because they're gonna be Jesus' dearest angels, why would you not want that for ALL your children then? (As twisted as this may sound). Do you guys know what I mean? If it's so great in heaven, wouldn't they wish for mom & baby to go there?

annalena, FWIW, I've been Christian all my life and can't imagine not being so - but I have never gotten that, either. Yes, it's a horrible wrench when somebody dies, worse when they die "too early," but y'know, things happen! Especially when it's the 19th pregnancy .....

I don't know. Try not to judge us all for it, though, 'k? ;)

[kb2]

This is one thing I NEVER understood about religion. Id it's so awesome in heaven and little children die because they're gonna be Jesus' dearest angels, why would you not want that for ALL your children then? (As twisted as this may sound). Do you guys know what I mean? If it's so great in heaven, wouldn't they wish for mom & baby to go there?

When I was a little little kid and heard about martyrs or whatever, I figured going to heaven was so awesome it wasn't bad at all that people were dying over not renouncing God. I remember being confused when people would talk about how horrible martyrdom was, because it did actually seem to me that dying young would be better than growing old, so wouldn't it be awesomer to be a martyr than not? I think all the martyr talk was really there so people could feel like they were members of a persecuted group :roll: , and my unconcerned reaction to it didn't go over very well.

(When I got older and actually lost pets and people close to me, I was really sad, so I didn't grow up to be a sociopath.)

[Witsec5]

I was a "little shit" to my mother and to no one else. The reason why, autonomy was more important to me than anything else. Some kids are like that. No matter how you punish them or try to brainwash them, the survival instinct and the desire to think for oneself is the most important thing. We've all known kids like that, you can take everything away from them, take the door off of the bedroom, beat them, bribe them, take away all of their privileges and they aren't going to give in. Their will cannot be broken.

What these kind of person needs is to have more control over their lives and to be given some respect for who they and then they will listen.

I hope one or more of the Duggar kids is this stubborn because that's what it takes to survive and thrive in this world. I have hope for several of them.

[annalena]

My parents tried me to brainwash into thinking critically about everything and everyone but them and their opinions all my life.

Well, didn't work. I mean the critical thinking part worked... the other didn't.

You are right, some instincts are going to live through.

[Lainey]

I was a "little shit" to my mother and to no one else. The reason why, autonomy was more important to me than anything else. Some kids are like that. No matter how you punish them or try to brainwash them, the survival instinct and the desire to think for oneself is the most important thing. We've all known kids like that, you can take everything away from them, take the door off of the bedroom, beat them, bribe them, take away all of their privileges and they aren't going to give in. Their will cannot be broken.

What these kind of person needs is to have more control over their lives and to be given some respect for who they and then they will listen.

I hope one or more of the Duggar kids is this stubborn because that's what it takes to survive and thrive in this world. I have hope for several of them.

I'm like this, too. I always wonder if there's a Duggar kid like me in that regard. There HAS to be, right? I mean, out of 20 of them, there has to be at least one.

ETA: I think many of us who end up here at FJ have this sort of nature.

[bananacat]

Actually Michelle said once that one of the older daughters, either Jinger or Jessa, was a very stubborn child. Michelle had a really awkward time phrasing that struggle in a way they could air on tv. She said she got exasperated when the kid didn't do things the first time she was told, and that Michell had to keep (long pause) "telling" her over and over again. I'm sure that "telling" is a code word for "spanking". And it must have taken a lot of spanking. But then Jim Bob said it was ok to have stubborn kids because when you finally manage to train them correctly, they'll stubbornly stick with their brainwashing.

I'm sure some of the younger kids are just as bad, but nobody even notices them anymore. The lost boys do some bad things that I wouldn't let a kid get away with and I'm pretty lenient. But they're boys so they aren't held to the same standard.

I hope Hannie is as stubborn as I was (and still am) and that her parents are now too old and lazy to ever beat that stubbornness out of her.

[gustava]

Actually Michelle said once that one of the older daughters, either Jinger or Jessa, was a very stubborn child. Michelle had a really awkward time phrasing that struggle in a way they could air on tv. She said she got exasperated when the kid didn't do things the first time she was told, and that Michell had to keep (long pause) "telling" her over and over again. I'm sure that "telling" is a code word for "spanking". And it must have taken a lot of spanking. But then Jim Bob said it was ok to have stubborn kids because when you finally manage to train them correctly, they'll stubbornly stick with their brainwashing.

I'm sure some of the younger kids are just as bad, but nobody even notices them anymore. The lost boys do some bad things that I wouldn't let a kid get away with and I'm pretty lenient. But they're boys so they aren't held to the same standard.

I hope Hannie is as stubborn as I was (and still am) and that her parents are now too old and lazy to ever beat that stubbornness out of her.

Think it was Jana.

[Daenerys]

Think it was Jana.

No wonder she comes off as so depressed and beaten down now... Michelle had a lot of time to 'focus' on her when she was little, as the oldest.

[dizzy]

Think it was Jana.

It was Jessa - I only know because I was randomly watching that ep on youtube earlier. It's when the camera guy asks her to recall each kids birth and say something about their personality. She talks about Jessa around 7 and a half minutes in.

youtube.com/watch?v=QF1_NbBDIiE

Here's what they say about Jessa, for anyone that doesn't have time/want to watch the vid:

Michelle says; "And then as she has grown up, I think she really.... gave us.... a lot of opportunities to learn more about parenting."

Jim Bob: "We had to get on to her quite a bit when she was a small girl because she was full of energy. But they say if you can train a strong willed child to do what's right, it'll be strong willed to do what's right."

Michelle: "I just thought, man, I don't think she's ever gonna catch on to what I'm saying. I'm having to say it again, and again, and again. The interesting thing is, she was so smart, she was catching on... she just didn't want to hear what I had to say."

[Kitty]

I don't think they started the "training up" until Jedidiah and Jeremiah, so Jessa probably escaped the plumbing line.

Though the "strong willed to do what's right" line makes a lot of sense that she seems to be a rather independent thinker and guzzling the kool-aid at the same time. I don't know what to make of Jessa other than some serious Stockholm Syndrome, a desperation to please. Becoming The Mask, for you fellow Troperettes.

[JenniferJuniper]

Think it was Jana.

Pretty sure it was Jessa. And now she's a Fundie Princess who seems to drink deeply from the purple kool-aid fountain.

As much as I love Hannie and hope she keeps her spirit and sass, it's really difficult to predict how she'll ultimately turn out.

I say keep an eye on the quiet ones. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Jenny Girl.

[Visionoyahweh]

Becoming The Mask, for you fellow Troperettes

This should be added to the 'real life' section of TT!

[FriendlyFundie]

You all can take this for what it's worth since I have no proof that I'm telling the truth. Sometime back in 2004-2005 I was part of an uber-fundy message board call Christian Mothers of Many Blessings (CMOMB) and in the members only area there was a text from a site chat with Michelle. In there she stated in the early days of parenthood they had been given a book by Ray or Roy Lessin whatever the hell his name is about training your kids and that she literally slept with it under her pillow. I remember looking it up on Amazon and being horrified at the reviews. He sounded like an earlier version of Michael Pearl. I am sure that all their kids had the snot beat out of them for any toe stepped out of line.

[Lainey]

Pretty sure it was Jessa. And now she's a Fundie Princess who seems to drink deeply from the purple kool-aid fountain.

As much as I love Hannie and hope she keeps her spirit and sass, it's really difficult to predict how she'll ultimately turn out.

I say keep an eye on the quiet ones. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Jenny Girl.

I agree about the quiet ones!

If Jessa was able to be brainwashed, then she isn't the kind of person we're talking about here, even if she was stubborn. The kind of kid I'm talking about, anyway, is just. not. buying. it. Brainwashing won't work on them. That's the kind of personality I'm hoping/looking for in at least one of the Duggar kids.

[Mama Mia]

Although I was surprised watching a youtube clip on the Duggars called "discipline outtakes" or something similar ( it popped up on th side bar when I was watching the Isreal episode )...

They were interviewing Michele about a recent pregnancy, she was holding Hannie ( I think ) who looked about 2 1/2 or 3. Jackson(?) was standing next to her. The kids were squirming and talking and making weird sounds and interrupting like crazy, she had to stop every two seconds to ask them to stop and they were completely ignoring her.

I know kids who get hit a lot often don't behave as well when in situations where the parent can't get physical ... but these kids really didn't seem to be the least bit concerned or fearful, or even like they noticed her at all. They seemed like any two little kids being difficult. Maybe with the cameras around full time they have had to tone down any physical discipline ?

[Tee-Tee]

As far as 'accidental kissing' goes, I could have sworn there was one blogger, formerly a Christian fundie, who was struggling with her Christian faith--IIRC, she actually had some positive feelings for the fellow to which she was assigned and they went on to marry and have four (last I read) children. The point being is that they did, actually, accidentally kiss. I believe they were being silly on the beach and their mouths actually DID hit one anothers...

Also, with them now being famous (er...okay, could spot them as 'that show with the 'XYZ' number a kids!') isn't there always a possibility that someone could get 'fresh' and just grab one of the older daughters' faces and kiss them? (I want to make it clear that I don't support this.)

Sophie: I was told to 'keep all four feet on the ground.'

[JenniferJuniper]

Although I was surprised watching a youtube clip on the Duggars called "discipline outtakes" or something similar ( it popped up on th side bar when I was watching the Isreal episode )...

They were interviewing Michele about a recent pregnancy, she was holding Hannie ( I think ) who looked about 2 1/2 or 3. Jackson(?) was standing next to her. The kids were squirming and talking and making weird sounds and interrupting like crazy, she had to stop every two seconds to ask them to stop and they were completely ignoring her.

I know kids who get hit a lot often don't behave as well when in situations where the parent can't get physical ... but these kids really didn't seem to be the least bit concerned or fearful, or even like they noticed her at all. They seemed like any two little kids being difficult. Maybe with the cameras around full time they have had to tone down any physical discipline ?

Jackson and Hannie still seem pretty undisciplined, especially in comparison with the the 6-7 year olds of prior seasons. Could be a few possibilities. The cameras are not around full time, just during the series filming schedules. Still, it might be hard to turn the nature of the discipline off and on, and they might fear inconsistency could make the "training up" more difficult in the end.

Part of me does wonder if it's intentional though. They are getting a little old for the shtick now, but for the past few years at least, their talking heads and cute relationship have been the most entertaining parts of the show. Dim Bob may be dim, but keeping the show on the air and the subsequent cash flowing is his real number 1 priority. Does he really want to spank his charming little rascals into submission, or is he better off allowing them to stay free spirits, at least for the time being?