IFB Church Bans Interracial/Do fundies have problems MERGED

[Happy_Anabaptist]

The most segregated place in the south is on Sunday morning in churches. As for the black church pointing you down the street: it might have been for their own safety. I know that predominantly black churches today would most likely be more welcoming.

For their safety from whom? From us?

[Terrie]

Me? Caucasian, period. Yet I identify with the Japanese-Americans who faced internment during WW2 and and the Arab-Americans who face extra scrutiny now. Why? Because in the 1910s, my family quit speaking German, and churches in the area cobbled their services into English and changed their signs to English language -- even in the stained glass that didn't get broken.

Why? Because Anti-German sentiment was so deep that camps for the interment of German-speaking Americans were on the drawing boards. It was mainly through the activism of a Lutheran pastor that my parent wasn't born in a camp in 1915.

I remember watching a documentary where they interviewed a German-American woman who remembered having a cross burned in their front yard during WWI. My own family Anglicized their very German last name during that time. For a great portrayal of the views of Germans during that time period, I recommend the movie "Sweet Land." (Actually, I recommend the movie anyway. It's quite good).

[Constance Vigilance]

For their safety from whom? From us?

Yes, Happy_Anabaptist. Believe it or not, there was time when it wasn't safe for black people to interact with white people in the South (outside the confines of doing work for them) for fear of what other white people might do to them as a result. Read, oh, any work of American literature about that theme, or any history book of your choosing. :roll:

[Happy_Anabaptist]

I had no idea that was still the case.

[dawbs]

:(

I noticed that the not-white fiance in the story is African, and wondered if that played a part in it becoming such a big deal within the church.

I dunno, my racist family members were OK w/ my one 'cousin' marrying a black man because he was from Africa...apparently that made him OK, 'African-Americans' carried extra baggage and "weren't as polite"

*stabby*

[meda]

For their safety from whom? From us?

Ok, you can't be this ignorant. At any point in your life have you heard of the civil rights movement? Bombing of black churches? Very white and very dead civil rights workers found buried in a levy? The recent (as in the past decade) spate of black church burnings in the South? The Klan? The rather important yet delicate role that Christianity has played in the struggle for equality? Any piece of recent history at all that might give you a clue as to why some people react violently to interracial relationships and/or combined worship services?

When I travelled as a union organizer in the South (WV, Mississippi, Kentucky, parts of Alabama), as a woman who looks white I was welcome in more black neighborhoods and churches than white ones. There were absolute color barriers and taboos in most of the small towns I worked in that I completely did not get at first; and it was the AA workers who explained them to me and asked that I respect them, for my own safety as well as theirs. They were right, the few times I ignored the rules, I got hurt and so did the workers. The only reason these rules were necessary was because of the bigotry of white people. You might have your feelings hurt by being asked to leave a black church, however they might not have a church if they let you stay.

edit to add that my experiences were not in the 1960's, they were in the late 1990's through 2002.

[Constance Vigilance]

I had no idea that was still the case.

"I know that predominantly black churches today would most likely be more welcoming" is the next sentence after what you were responding too. I know you saw it, because you quoted it too.

So no, nowadays probably not so much. But far large swathes of the twentieth century (and probably still today in some areas), of course.

[AnnoDomini]

This cracks me up. What good do they think they're going to do by excluding couples who come from different "people groups"?

My TSU's heritage includes Caucasian, Native American and African. Put him at a powwow, he fits in. Put him next to the owners of a Mediterranean restaurant, he fits in. One of the Juniors is like that, too; as a Caddo friend said, "Junior#1 will fit in anywhere in the world."

Me? Caucasian, period. Yet I identify with the Japanese-Americans who faced internment during WW2 and and the Arab-Americans who face extra scrutiny now. Why? Because in the 1910s, my family quit speaking German, and churches in the area cobbled their services into English and changed their signs to English language -- even in the stained glass that didn't get broken.

Why? Because Anti-German sentiment was so deep that camps for the interment of German-speaking Americans were on the drawing boards. It was mainly through the activism of a Lutheran pastor that my parent wasn't born in a camp in 1915.

So now when I hear that a nominally "Christian" group excludes couples because obviously they were born in different people groups? That "Christian" group is literally beneath my contempt. Not the people who are in it and unsure of what to do about it, but certainly the leaders who enact such rules and any members who thought-lessly follow such rules.

Welcome, Diggers - love your avatar! Stephen Fry /Jeeves/ forever!

Too right. I've always felt that I can't take pride in my German heritage (and growing up I never felt I had any heritage at all, being white) because of WWII. Can't have detectable German pride doncha know.

[Visionoyahweh]

Please note that this is NOT an IFB church. The article states that this occured at Gulnare Free Will Baptist Church. Freewill Baptist and Independent Fundamental Baptist are not the same. I don't dispute that this could happen at an IFB church but in this case it wasn't an IFB church so the title of this thread states something that is not true.

My bad. I was typing angry when I posted! :evil:

[Austin]

I have to admit I am often shocked that people still believe that having a biracial child is somehow unfair to the child, or sets him/her up for failure and/or rejection.

Just a couple of weeks ago, a co-worker who I thought was progressive (at least a little) was describing some sort of family brouhaha that was going to complicate their Thanksgiving holiday, and it had something to do with some relative or in-law being married to someone of a different race. She expressed consternation about this, and said something to the effect of like, "I don't even know why this should matter".

And I commiserated and agreed that no, it should not matter. I went on to say that in this day and age, it's a shame that some people still think in those terms and that personally, if one of my sons brought home a person of another race that he wanted to marry, we wouldn't even blink.

Uh-oh. She kind of squirmed in her chair a bit, and said something like, "Well, I do think that it does make it hard on the kids. People should really think about the kids. They're never really accepted by either race."

To which my immediate response was: :shock: *wtf* :shock:

Because I thought we just got done agreeing it didn't/shouldn't matter.

[JumpingtheSnark]

I have to admit I am often shocked that people still believe that having a biracial child is somehow unfair to the child, or sets him/her up for failure and/or rejection.

This is why there is such a strong undercurrent of racial hatred/bias against the current president. I don't love Obama the president, but Obama the man? I'd have a beer...

But Obama as a person proves all the racial theories wrong; Occidental, Harvard Law, Senator, one wife, two kids, now PRESIDENT? And he's mixed??? *faints*

He is one of those "smartest man in the room" types, and I'm sure it frosts a lot of their cookies. But he does prove that mixed kids can succeed. I mean he single-handedly claimed Hawaii for Kenya, that was pretty sweet.

[maybeizfundie]

I dunno, my racist family members were OK w/ my one 'cousin' marrying a black man because he was from Africa...apparently that made him OK, 'African-Americans' carried extra baggage and "weren't as polite"

*stabby*

Wow. :( I spoke out of my experience but clearly experiences differ. Maybe it's not where he comes from but the accent or something but dh has run into a lot of issues here, (with all colors of Americans, all walks of life, all varieties of politics) with people presuming he's anything from backwards to stupid. We have a Congolese friend who suffered so much from that as well. He is absolutely brilliant (like inventor, patent-holder, radiology genius brilliant) but always running into brick walls thrown up by people who couldn't see past the thick accent, including those in the church we used to attend, which was on the extreme liberal/progressive end of the Mennonite denomination. :(

[gibbsgirls]

I was surprised to see this article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/3 ... 2%7C116806

I can't believe a church would ban an interracial couple. My nephew is biracial and my youngest daughter is in a long-term relationship with an African American man (we are caucasian), so this is a non-issue in our family. Anyway, didn't think that fundies had such problems with this. Are there any biblical principles against interracial relationships / marraige?

[Happy_Anabaptist]

Not the fundies I know. But it's such a bloodline thing that most of us are white, eastern Europeans anyway.

[Angri-la]

I've already posted about it, but the number of rude looks and comments I receive when I (a redhead) am out with my mixed race (though she is dark, her father was at least partially white, or so I was told) daughter.

I hope by the time she is old enough to think about marriage (25), she does not feel the pressure to marry for any reason but love.

[emmiedahl]

One other issue is that black people sometimes feel disrespected by white people as a group, and maybe they understandably don't want to deal with that on a Sunday morning. A lot of older black people have seen their grandparents called 'boy' by a 16 year old white girl and similar.

That said, I have a dream... of attending a local black church one of these days just to check it out. I have seen like three black people in my town TOTAL in 5 years of living here, and I was driving down some random street one morning only to see a couple hundred African-Americans pour out the doors of a church. Where do they live? Where do they work? Why have I never seen them? The church was located on the border between the white side of town and the Latino side (my town is unfortunately split in half like that). But I don't want to bust in on their territory, kwim?

I grew up in a highly integrated community and never really was taught to consider color or race. I would have claimed based on my experience that racism is dead. Then I moved to Redding, CA and decided that there are definitely some racists in the world, but that it is highly aberrant behavior. Since moving to WA, I acknowledge that there is a surprising amount of racism in mainstream American culture, way too much of it. It still surprises me sometimes. People will lower their voices and say things like, "Did you notice that new family is Mexican? What are they doing out here on the Westside?"

No one is safe in a world like this. It's really scary.

[sugaree]

I don't want to dismiss this issue or downplay racism, but that church is tiny. Average Sunday attendance is 40 people. The vote was 9 members for the ban on interracial marriage, 6 against. So I have trouble seeing this as any kind of fundie trend.

[JumpingtheSnark]

well, they do hate the president....

#proofofnothingbutsomething

[maybeizfundie]

That would depend on the church/group. (And sugaree has a good point, too)

"Color mixing" bans have no foundation Biblically. There is some OT restiction on intermarrying with nonbelievers, and that's usually the (shaky) ground on which such bans are based. Deuteronomy 7 is usually what's used--except that it specifies particular tribes (by name, even), and makes it an issue not of race or color but of the risk of the Hebrews being turned away from God by the influence of those tribes. Most people I have run into will eventually admit that and then fall back on the "but what about the poor children?" argument, which is thankfully becoming sillier and sillier as the years go by. :)

Interestingly, while Answers in Genesis (creationist org) believes that a lot of racism was Darwin's fault, they're clear that there is no Biblical reason against intermarriage. And they oppose the "curse of Ham" argument. So, while I'm sure FJ will find much to snark about on just this one linked page, it does serve to point out that some fundies have zero problem with interracial or cross-cultural marriage. answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v21/n3/inter-racial-marriage (hope I broke that right??)

I think it may be on one of those podcast sermon sites, but I know Voddie Baucham (Vision Forum associated) has a sermon specifically about this issue and concludes that there is only one "race" and that melanin levels should have absolutely no bearing on relationships and marriage.

[nolongerIFBx]

My bad. I was typing angry when I posted! :evil:

No prob! Like I said, it could happen. But they get enough bad press (which they deserve) for what they actually do-- they don't need help, LOL!

[Diggers]

I've already posted about it, but the number of rude looks and comments I receive when I (a redhead) am out with my mixed race (though she is dark, her father was at least partially white, or so I was told) daughter.

I hope by the time she is old enough to think about marriage (25), she does not feel the pressure to marry for any reason but love.

Although we haven't procreated yet (and due to some health issues on my part I'm not sure we'll be able to), my African husband and I (I am a paleface descendent of Mexicans who were descendents of Spanish Jews escaping the Inquisition in the 1600s until the good ol' USA took/bought up what is now the American Southwest) talk about this sometimes. He has said that he's not so sure he wants to raise our hypothetical kids in the US. We have friends who are mixed-race couples, and the number of times the paler half is out with the kid and gets the "where did you adopt from" question just makes my blood boil. Why does it matter, anyway, as long as said child is loved and cared for and raised to love him/herself just as he/she is?

And do not get me started on being a pale-pass-for-white Hispanic person with a last name that doesn't sound like it's got Spanish origins. Nobody of any ethnic persuasion believes you are what you say you are! I have long just told people I'm human, too, thanks.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I don't want to dismiss this issue or downplay racism, but that church is tiny. Average Sunday attendance is 40 people. The vote was 9 members for the ban on interracial marriage, 6 against. So I have trouble seeing this as any kind of fundie trend.

Interesting. I saw the story in our paper, but they didn't have that part.

Race is one of those areas where I don't think the fundie world has a real unified opinion. I've known people who went to Bob Jones University(BJU), where interracial dating was completely banned. I think that was later changed to be permitted as long as your parents signed a permission slip. I also know someone from my old fundie church who married an IFB woman. That was controverisal in itself (reformed fundies and IFB fundies don't always play well together), but then she also attended a church that not only forbade interracial dating but also wouldn't allow interracial wedding parties. As a result, the bride's cousin who was adopted from Korea was not allowed to be a bridesmaid.

IN the reformed church where I grew up, the pastors actively preached against racism, the thought being that God would predestine people of all races to salvation and it's not for us to question. There were also several interracial couples in the church.

[FaustianSlip]

So what are interracial couples who are already married supposed to do, exactly? Just get divorced? Because I'll bet this church sees divorce as a big ole' sin, too.

Whatever. This is so frigging stupid, I have no words.

[FloraDoraDolly]

It's worth noting that there are A LOT of African-Americans who are against interracial marriage. There was a recent article about this in The Economist magazine. Check it out here: http://www.economist.com/node/21532296.

I've known of more than one black woman who told her teenaged or adult son: "If she can't use my comb, don't bring her home!"

Not that this makes it OK for white people to act like bigoted a-holes, and it's none of the church's business, anyway. But the other side of the story is one worth exploring.

[Diggers]

It's worth noting that there are A LOT of African-Americans who are against interracial marriage. There was a recent article about this in The Economist magazine. Check it out here: http://www.economist.com/node/21532296.

I've known of more than one black woman who told her teenaged or adult son: "If she can't use my comb, don't bring her home!"

Not that this makes it OK for white people to act like bigoted a-holes, and it's none of the church's business, anyway. But the other side of the story is one worth exploring.

I have actually noticed that the loudest, most overt objections to my own interracial marriage have come from African American women. Man, do I get glared at. And yelled at, depending on what neighborhood we're in.

Then again, the behind-the-hand comments from rednecks when we were in rural VA were not pleasant, either.

Bigoted a-holeishness is colorblind, I guess.

I just don't get why anybody would give a rat's ass who we choose to marry. Our respective colors didn't come into play at all when we started dating, continued dating, and eventually got married. We just get along really well! love, honor, sickness/health, rich/poor, all of that business.