I don't understand. Why Do People Hate Gays?

[debrand]

emmiedahl, thats what I figured. The mean girl said to me "God hates it, and so should everyone else! It's so disgusting!" I didn't know how to handle that... I'm not good at speaking up sometimes, but I wanted to say "I thought God loved everyone, regardless." or something to that effect.

That isn't the first time I've heard that immature argument. Your friend has basically said that her idea of what is unappealing should be the basis for what otehr people do. It is a very self absorbed reason. It would be like me finding brussel sprouts gross and believing that everyone should stop eating them.

If you friend finds the idea of same sex couples having sex unattractive, than she should stop fantasizing about them. Tell her that. :lol:

[thoughtful]

If your child is going to be straight, they are going to live in world where about 10% of the population are gay. It takes a lot of time to hate that many people who are doing no harm to you, so maybe you could reconsider giving your child that burden.

Comparing the abuse of a child to a consensual relationship between two adults just shows that you couldn't care less about the child. They are a talking point to you. I bet pretty much every Christian who uses this argument has spent endless energy fighting for the repression of gays, and very little combatting the sexual abuse of children. Sad, but revealing. They don't care about genuine suffering; they care about their petty hates.

QFT.

[Rosa]

No prob, and I'm not at all offended by anti-Christian atheists. You don't need my tips at all :)

I just see a lot of on-the-fence former fundies thinking it's not even worth checking out mainstream churches because there's no way a church can be Christian and pro-gay, because they've been taught that all those other churches aren't actually Christian. That idea that only born-again type Christians are "real Christians" seems to be one of the hardest things to unthink.

[emmiedahl]

I am not anti-Christian or atheist, and I think it is insane that a person ever be told that God does not love them because of the way He made them. You need to find a new church if that is the case. If anyone tells you to choose between God and Biology, you need to answer "false dichotomy" followed by "Bye-bye".

[FJismyheadship]

The mean girl is different from my friend.

My friend will still straight up tell a man that he has the wrong parts for her. She just chooses to be celibate. I've heard her flat out say someone is attractive. But because in the Christian world its mostly considered wrong, I think she has to struggle with it. One day she'll say one thing, and the next she'll say something totally contradictory. One minute she accepts and embraces who she is, and the next, she's saying its "wrong" I think thats part of why this has been rolling around in my brain lately.

I posted the article I found on homosexual animals, and have gotten three responces since then. Two are from family I rarely talk to, one is from another church member.

Random Family Member 1:

Im sure they are trying to say because animals do this,that is ok for humans to do the same, One problem animals or not human, and we live under different laws, that is Gods law, and it is forbided, it will send your soul to hell!

Random Family Member 2:

Mankind are not animals (even though some act like them). There are 4 kinds of flesh, man, beast (animal), fish and fowl. God created man in His own image and likeness and we are not to practice homosexuality or beastiality. It is an abomination to God.

Church person:

I am presuming that what they refer to as "homosexuality" is in actuality one of the ways that animals show dominance. Homosexuality is a sin. God loves homosexuals at the same time he hates the sin of homosexuality. We must show the love of Christ by loving the sinner but refusing to condone the sin

Le sigh.

[emmiedahl]

I like "forbided".

[Constance Vigilance]

It's okay, FMJ. You don't have to, and indeed can't convince everyone. But attitudes and beliefs like theirs are what is causing your friend so much hardship, because she has taken them on as true and thinks she has to deny important parts of herself. I am so sad for her.

I've heard her flat out say someone is attractive. But because in the Christian world its mostly considered wrong, I think she has to struggle with it.

In certain aspects of the Christian world yes. But as discussed upthread, there are many many churches that don't make a point of hating people Jesus never mentioned as sinners. Perhaps you could suggest to your friend that she check some of them out. The most hate-filled way is not necessarily the "right" way. In fact, when you're talking about following Jesus, it almost never is. Bigots do not have a monopoly on truth.

[Eclipse]

The Bible reflects a culture's values at a different time and place. Christians don't follow the rules about planting fields or clothes, so why should this one still be valid?

It sounds like your friend has internalized all the rantings and hatred towards homosexuality that she was grown up with. She's celibate because she internalized what she was taught. It is going to take a lot of work for her to accept who she is and what it means. She won't be happy with herself until she does. She might need therapy to help, but she needs to understand this on her own. Getting over prejudices that have you internalized is a very difficult journey.

I love the West Wing and I'm going to quote it:

Dr. Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

President Josiah Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.

Dr. Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.

President Josiah Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important 'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you? One last thing: While you may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club, in this building, when the President stands, nobody sits.

[celestial]

It's okay, FMJ. You don't have to, and indeed can't convince everyone. But attitudes and beliefs like theirs are what is causing your friend so much hardship, because she has taken them on as true and thinks she has to deny important parts of herself. I am so sad for her.

In certain aspects of the Christian world yes. But as discussed upthread, there are many many churches that don't make a point of hating people Jesus never mentioned as sinners. Perhaps you could suggest to your friend that she check some of them out. The most hate-filled way is not necessarily the "right" way. In fact, when you're talking about following Jesus, it almost never is. Bigots do not have a monopoly on truth.

Your friend is really lucky to have you in her life, FMJ; you sound like a nice, supportive person and that's exactly what she needs right now. I bolded some things above that I think are important points. Your friend doesn't just have to suffer through life as a gay Christian. She can continue to be a Christian and not be in an environment in which she is told who she is is wrong. If you want to be a really good friend to her, it would be amazing if you did a little research about the churches in your area, found one that is "welcoming", and invited her to check out a couple services there with you. It could make all the difference in the world to her right now.

Edited to stop me from obsessing over a teeny riffle.

[Rosa]

And at the very least, telling her you're her friend and you support her even when you don't agree with her reasoning has got to be helpful. Seconding everyone who said you're a good friend.

[FJismyheadship]

Thanks guys :)

celestial, I saw that riffle! But I knew what you meant haha.

Also, I will look into churches. Unity is good, right? We have a small Unity church here in town... I love it! Actually, I need to go back out there...

[Mommy22alyns]

For the people out there who believe being gay/lesbian is a choice, I usually point out that I didn't chose to be heterosexual. I just am. I ask them when they chose to be heterosexual, at what specific moment in their lives they actually weighed the pros and cons of being gay versus being hetero and chose hetero? Further, who would chose to be gay, considering what a dangerous and lonesome option that often is, especially if you're living in some small town in the middle of the Bible belt and all around you are people who hate gays and even actively go out looking to "hurt some gays"?

I believe that a parent should have unconditional love for his/her own child. My parents have that for me, and that foundation has been priceless. I feel the same for my own child. I will never stop loving him, no matter what. When still going to church, I recall often that God's love was described as similar to a parent's love for a child, yet even more all-encompassing because it was divine. So if God is divine, and symbolizes the purest and deepest love, then how could God ever turn against a soul based on whether that soul has sexual desire for the opposite sex or the same sex?

Thisthisthis. +1! :clap:

[gustava]

A young monk arrives at the monastery.

He is assigned to helping the other monks

in copying the old canons and laws of the

church by hand.

He notices, however, that all of the monks

are copying from copies, not from the original

manuscript. So, the new monk goes to the

head abbot to question this, pointing out that

if someone made even a small error in the first

copy, it would never be picked up! In fact, that

error would be continued in all of the subsequent

copies..

The head monk, says, 'We have been copying

from the copies for centuries, but you make

a good point, my son.'

He goes down into the dark caves underneath

the monastery where the original manuscripts

are held as archives in a locked vault that hasn't

been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go

by and nobody sees the old abbot.

So, the young monk gets worried and goes down

to look for him. He sees him banging his head

against the wall and wailing.

"We missed the R !

We missed the R !

We missed the R !"

His forehead is all bruised and he is

crying uncontrollably. The young monk

asks the old abbot, 'What's wrong, father?'

With a choking voice, the old abbot replies,

'The word was...

CELEB R ATE

[celestial]

Also, I will look into churches. Unity is good, right? We have a small Unity church here in town... I love it! Actually, I need to go back out there...

Maybe it's a little bit TMI, but this chart summarizes the positions of different Christian churches on homosexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... and_Europe

[godlytomatosoup]

I'm a lesbian, FMJ, and I have a question for your church: how much time do you spend condemning people who don't feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, welcome strangers (i.e. immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers), clothe the naked, and visit the sick and the prisoners? Jesus didn't say anything about gay people, but he said people who didn't do those things would go away into eternal fiery punishment for not helping Jesus himself. I don't like the idea of hell, and I don't think I believe in it, but that's what he said. "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." Would you say that members of your congregation are more severe on these lines than they are about gay people?

[DistantStar]

I honestly think a lot of the "it's a choice" preacher types say that because they're either bi or gay themselves. But they can't allow themselves to even think that, they think they have a "same-sex attraction problem." They're not gay! They're really really straight! Just with this little...ah...problem. And since they think that, they also assume that as "straight" men, all "straight" men have this same problem. That's why homosexuality is so seductive in their minds.

Cause it's what they really are deep down but can't admit it.

[Aristeia]

Agree with all the other posters - it's not a choice. Sexuality is very complex and I hope your friend can find peace. I think the best thing you can do now is keep on being a good friend; it sounds like she needs all the support she can get. Shellfish are an abomination according to Leviticus, but there aren't any religious groups trying to shut down fishing industries or protesting outside of seafood restaurants. AND if you want to give Paul the benefit of the doubt (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), slavery was very common in the ancient world. Sometimes (very young) people were bought as sex slaves and raped. That's one interpretation, and it's very far away from two consenting adults.

[Alcyone]

Does anyone know if it is typical to be nauseated at the thought of heterosexual sex if one is gay? I am a hetero woman - married w/children - but the thinking of sex with women is not nauseating to me. Should it be??? I am honestly unsure about this. Is it not a valid comparison? It struck me that the friend's strong reaction is either a bi-product of trauma or else she has been damaged by all the shaming church talk.

[Aurora]

Maybe it's a little bit TMI, but this chart summarizes the positions of different Christian churches on homosexuality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... and_Europe

That's very informative, celestial. FWIW, FMJ, my local United Church sports a permanent rainbow symbol on the sign outside.

[celestial]

Does anyone know if it is typical to be nauseated at the thought of heterosexual sex if one is gay? I am a hetero woman - married w/children - but the thinking of sex with women is not nauseating to me. Should it be??? I am honestly unsure about this. Is it not a valid comparison? It struck me that the friend's strong reaction is either a bi-product of trauma or else she has been damaged by all the shaming church talk.

I have no idea whether it's typical or not. But I'm a lesbian, and the thought of sleeping with a man makes me feel super squicked out. Yeah, even nauseous. And no, I was never traumatized, damaged, or shamed by my church. There is nothing wrong with the thought of sleeping with a woman not being nauseating to you even though you are straight. There are certainly plenty of lesbians who do sleep with men on occasion. There are no "shoulds" in this. Everyone is different, and what feels ok to one person won't feel ok to another. That's fine. Google the Kinsey scale if you haven't heard of it yet.

[QueenMother]

The Bible never once mentions the word homosexuality. Never. Ever.

I believe God created my gay son to be exactly as he is.

[Constance Vigilance]

Does anyone know if it is typical to be nauseated at the thought of heterosexual sex if one is gay? I am a hetero woman - married w/children - but the thinking of sex with women is not nauseating to me. Should it be??? I am honestly unsure about this. Is it not a valid comparison? It struck me that the friend's strong reaction is either a bi-product of trauma or else she has been damaged by all the shaming church talk.

I don't know about typical as I haven't exactly taken a survey, but in my experience nausea is a strong reaction. I've slept with men; it was fine (actually some of it was really good), but see once I realised women were an option -- oh my god. . Thank you and goodnight. Now that I'm not trying to force myself to sleep with men, I can say that there are some I find attractive, but I don't want to sleep with a man. I wouldn't like it. But I wouldn't feel sick because of it.

In conclusion, if you don't want to sleep with women, you don't. You aren't required to feel sick at the thought for it to be true. :D

[Constance Vigilance]

I honestly think a lot of the "it's a choice" preacher types say that because they're either bi or gay themselves. But they can't allow themselves to even think that, they think they have a "same-sex attraction problem." They're not gay! They're really really straight! Just with this little...ah...problem. And since they think that, they also assume that as "straight" men, all "straight" men have this same problem. That's why homosexuality is so seductive in their minds.

Cause it's what they really are deep down but can't admit it.

Also, this.

If you have "chosen" to be straight, then you are bisexual or gay (or somewhere else on the queer spectrum). Actual straight people never have to make that choice. It doesn't even occur to them.

[Edited for clarification and word choice. And for the fuck of it.]

[Diggers]

Re: the whole churches having rainbows on the front of them thing -- apparently it's not always to advertize their openness to the non-heterosexual community.

As a Christian the rainbow is extremely significant.

It appears essentially twice in the Bible, once in Genesis 9:13-14 and in Revelations 4:3, 10:1. In Genesis, the rainbow came after the great flood brought by God in order to remove sinful and evil minded men from the earth.

iambaker.net/rainbow-cupcakes-and-gay-pride

This lady bugs me, but I sort of can't stop reading. I guess I really like rolling my eyes.

From the comments to this post:

Laura says:

October 4, 2010 at 7:39 pm

I agree with everything you’ve said, and I’m glad there are still people like us in the world. It’s sad that a rainbow is being perverted into meaning something it doesn’t.

Cathy says:

October 20, 2010 at 11:55 pm

I only just found this blog and this post.

I totally support the baker’s right to say why he wouldn’t make the cupcakes. In the next 10 years we will see a big push for acceptance of other “lifestylesâ€. A pedophile is convinced that what he wants to do for little boys is showing love. If he came in wanting cupcakes decorated with male genitalia, should the baker have the right to refuse?

A person can’t help who she is attracted to, but she CAN help what she does about it.

A brother and sister can “fall in loveâ€, does that make it a good thing? When pro-gay supporters start with the whole ‘lets just love one another’ line, they obviously have not thought through the possibilities.

Yes, of course, incest is completely comparable to being homosexual. :roll:

[Rosa]

I have been thinking about this more and more, and I just think we have two completely separate ideas about sexual morality. Some people have some of each, but the law is shifting more and more to a consent view, and conservative Christians have stuck with a marriage view.

So you get these bloggers/commenters who don't consider consent at all unless pushed, so everything that's not "heterosexual in marriage no birth control PIV" is just about equally as bad, which looks CRAZY to us on the "consent and lack of power abuse" side.

The thing where Herman Cain can harass employees and his supporters don't blink, but an affair? Better drop out of the race! really clarified this for me.