The war on Christmas

[Boogalou]

This is kind of interesting. I went and did some googling and found this site http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/orig ... ee-faq.htm and I had to click on it because it is a fundie approved source, Jesus is built right into the title! Anyway, they list a bunch of possible origins but say we don't really know for sure how it originated and then they say:

Whatever legend you wish to pass on, remember that Christmas is the time to celebrate the birth of Jesus. The origin of the Christmas tree can't change that fact.

So there you go. KEEP CHRIST...IN CHRISTMAS YOU HEATHEN::: PAGANS!!!!! STOP TALKING AND ACCEPT JESUS::: INTO YOUR HEARTS...HE IS THE REASON...FOR THE SEASON!!!!!

I win. See: use of all caps :)

[darareaksmey]

I don't speak for all Jews, but... if you say Merry Christmas to me, I will not be offended. If you are not Jewish and you refer to my holidays at all, it is a pleasant surprise, even if you do so in English or in really bad Hebrew (which happens to be the only Hebrew dialect I speak fluently anyway). I want for everyone to enjoy their winter holidays and spread goodwill, nothing wrong with that. We celebrate Christmas in my mixed religion home, but I imagine I would feel the same way if we did not.

My religion is not some speshul snowflake that needs to be deferred to by all people in a specifically Jewish manner, kwim? I understand and accept that minority holidays are off the mainstream radar. I think it is sweet when people go out of their way to be sensitive because it is 'above and beyond'.

That's nice to know. I was pretty sure this lady was not bothered, but I really don't have a lot of opportunity to interact with Jews on a level that involves discussing each other's religious observances. I just wanted her to know I knew it was a special observance for her and her family and that I hoped they were enjoying it.

[emmiedahl]

The is plenty of historical evidence that suggests that several different cultures had winter holidays that included some sort of tree decoration. Just perusing the web, it seems that this is a fairly standard belief even among the historically educated. There is certainly more evidence that Saturnalia existed than there is that Jesus existed.

There is nothing wrong with ripping off pagan customs. There is a symbolic reason so many people include evergreen trees and candles in their winter festivities. It transcends the religious, really.

[Triplet3]

The tradition of bringing greenery in and also the tradition of decorating trees with small gifts come from pre-Christian Germanic tribal beliefs. It was believed that bringing in greenery would help bring back the sun during Yule. Also, trees were decorated with offerings to the Wild Hunt long before Christian influence.

I've heard about the greenery but not about the rest of what you mention, and I've read a lot about the history of calendar customs (I've been interested in the subject, and that of folklore, since I was a child). I would be genuinely interested to know which historical sources mention pre-Christian tree decorating, and to hear of any credible historical research that proves that the Christian usage definitely descended from the pagan traditions (if they did indeed exist). Even if pre-Christian Germanic tribespeople did decorate trees around midwinter, how can you prove that this custom survived the many centuries between that time and the 15th century, which is when the existence of Christmas trees was first recorded in Livonia (modern Latvia and Estonia) and northern Germany?

[Triplet3]

The is plenty of historical evidence that suggests that several different cultures had winter holidays that included some sort of tree decoration. Just perusing the web, it seems that this is a fairly standard belief even among the historically educated. There is certainly more evidence that Saturnalia existed than there is that Jesus existed.

I wasn't denying that Saturnalia existed. What I'm doubtful about is the claim that ancient pagans did something in a particular way so of course late medieval/early modern/modern Christian customs that appear similar must be descendents, even when there is no historical evidence covering the many centuries between the former era and the latter.

I can accept that the use of greenery in general as a Christmas decoration in mainland Europe may have descended from pre-Christian traditions (though there is a lack of evidence for that being the case in England), but decorated trees? Not certain at all.

[emmiedahl]

Just a quick search turned up several books that discuss the historical transition between the pagan Yule and the Christian one, including Andy Orchard's Dictionary of Norse Myth and Legend.

Are you disputing that pre-Christian religions decorated trees, or that this was a precursor to the Christmas tree, or what? And why does it matter? If Christians were not the first to use the Winter Holiday Tree, then they don't hold exclusive claim to the traditiona, is that what bothers you?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

In more modern times there were "New Year Trees" in the Soviet Union (and still in Russia now too I think?), but they were surely borrowing from Xmas rather than the other way around.

Meanwhile I'm sort of fond of:

for the nice literalness of it, whether you celebrate Xmas during that season or not! :)

[Triplet3]

Just a quick search turned up several books that discuss the historical transition between the pagan Yule and the Christian one, including Andy Orchard's Dictionary of Norse Myth and Legend.

Are you disputing that pre-Christian religions decorated trees, or that this was a precursor to the Christmas tree, or what? And why does it matter? If Christians were not the first to use the Winter Holiday Tree, then they don't hold exclusive claim to the traditiona, is that what bothers you?

Thanks for the book suggestion, I'll see about getting hold of a copy.

I dispute that it was necessarily a true precursor to the Christmas tree, in that pagan traditions from before Christ led directly to the Christian one of the late medieval/early modern era. I also suspect that any pagan tree-decorating that might have occurred was not necessarily widespread. When historical evidence is thin and patchy, researchers have often fallen into the trap of assuming that because pagans in one area of Europe had a particular tradition, then all other pagans in the rest of the continent must also have had that tradition.

I'm not bothered by it IF it can be proven to be true; I have no religious objections to Christian customs having pagan origins. The historian in me is just bothered by assumptions that are made about the past despite lack of hard historical evidence. I have read a lot about the history of customs, folklore etc. here in the UK, and believe me it is VERY common for people to assume that customs have ancient, pagan origins when in fact there is no evidence that they began more than a few hundred years ago at the most. For some reason it seems to be more 'sexy' (for want of a better word!) for a tradition to be ancient in origin.

[emmiedahl]

Well, I have read about the evergreen boughs being brought inside and decorated, and also of outside trees being decorated with suns for Saturnalia. I'll have to get back to you on a source.

Have you considered that perhaps evergreen trees are merely a Jungian symbol of life in the long winter, and that many people see the same significance in them? That is what I tend to be believe, considering that many traditions are present throughout the world in some form without really being derivative of each other.

[O Latin]

Whether Christmas trees were invented by Christians or Romans or Pagans or whoever, my point was that they have become, in 21st century America, a Christmas thing. If you show somebody a picture of an evergreen tree covered in lights and ornaments and ask them what it is, odds are they'll say it's a Christmas tree. Some people don't celebrate Christmas. Most of these people don't have Christmas trees. So all I was really trying to say was that to me, renaming it a holiday tree sort of seems to miss the point.

Reading this thread, I'm kind of surprised that people see Christmas as an explicitly Christian holiday because I've always thought of it as a predominantly secular holiday that has religious origins and aspects. I've met atheists, agnostics, Jews, and people who just aren't religious who all celebrate Christmas, some of them with more gusto than a lot of the religious people I know. A lot of things associated with Christmas (shopping, Christmas cards, a lot of the music, Santa, trees, etc.) aren't religious per se, even if they have religious origins. Maybe it has to do with where I live (an area that's not particularly religious but very white American), but I tend to assume most people I encounter celebrate Christmas, I just don't assume all of their celebrations include religion.

ETA: One of my Facebook friends just posted this, which made me laugh.

Please copy & paste this to your status if you are constantly being asked to copy & paste something to your status by friends who copy & paste things to their status. Many people won't copy & paste this but my true sarcastic friends will copy & paste it because they know this was copied & pasted… from a dear friend in need of more stuff to copy & paste...thank you! And don't forget the hearts., MY GOD THE HEARTS!!!. . ♥♥♥♥♥♥ Oh and smileys :)

[thoughtful]

The High Holy Days are Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. These are basically the biggest of all holidays. People who never ever go to synagogue normally will go on those two days. The other examples are just days that are generally a big deal in that you don't go to work, and slightly more observant people will go to synagogue then too. Hannukah is really really minor. It's fun at all...but in terms of religion it isn't a major holiday. It does bug me a bit that it recieves so much attention merely because it's close to Christmas. So Happy Holidays is awesome, but Hannukah is really minor, and i think was hyped up a little to compete with Christmas. Are big holidays (The High Holy Days) are in September/October. So i'm not really sure how i feel about it...saying Happy Holidays kinda still preferences Christians, because people only say it because of their major holiday. But I prefer it to Merry Christmas. Happy Holidays is considerate to other people, and it still includes Christmas, does it not?

Slightly related - I absolutely love it when my non-Jewish friends say Shana Tova to me on Rosh Hashana. So I think if you're friends with someone you should know when their important holidays are and what you would say to wish them a happy one. Too complicated for strangers, but for friends it's a nice thing to do. I absolutely hate it when people who i'm friends with, who i've known for years, and know full well I don't celebrate Christmas give me Christmas cards.

ElphabaGalinda, thanks for giving ChickeyMonkey the High Holy Days explanation (try saying that ten times, fast! :lol: ) -- I was at work, so I wasn't online.

And it's so nice to see someone else who gets my point.

Whenever I have this conversation, I brace myself for people not understanding, or seeing it as "you left my group out" whining.

I think it only really started to bother me when I realized there must be people all around me from traditions with a whole other "rhythm" to their year, who may be having an even harder time enduring the December Is Festive, Dammit, And You'd Better Be On Board and/or Only Christian Stuff Counts attitudes of some. :lol:

[thoughtful]

I don't think that works. We celebrate a whole host of non religious days as holidays- the federal government of the US recognizes like 9 or 12 of them or something? Under your proposed definition, Memorial and Labor Day wouldn't be holidays. Oh, or MLK day, which definitely celebrates a cultural movement and history. Is Kwanzaa a religious holiday? I don't know for sure, individuals who practice Kwanzaa are probably better equipped to answer that, and I imagine it varies from person to person. So it might not be a religious holiday, but it definitely is a holiday- a day that is special to those who practice it.

I think that you're right about the common American use of the word "holiday."

I guess I picked up on ChickeyMonkey's idea because we used the word "holiday" for the more important events on the Jewish calendar, and "festival" for the lesser ones (again, generalizing somewhat, so as not to bore everyone with the intricacies of observance).

And Chanuka was definitely referred to as a festival, not a holiday.

[Alecto]

I've heard about the greenery but not about the rest of what you mention, and I've read a lot about the history of calendar customs (I've been interested in the subject, and that of folklore, since I was a child). I would be genuinely interested to know which historical sources mention pre-Christian tree decorating, and to hear of any credible historical research that proves that the Christian usage definitely descended from the pagan traditions (if they did indeed exist). Even if pre-Christian Germanic tribespeople did decorate trees around midwinter, how can you prove that this custom survived the many centuries between that time and the 15th century, which is when the existence of Christmas trees was first recorded in Livonia (modern Latvia and Estonia) and northern Germany?

Actually, there is extensive historical record that these customs survived in Iceland, which was the last stronghold of Germanic tribal belief. I will have to pull out some books tomorrow, but I know that these specific customs are mentioned in the Icelandic sagas.

[thoughtful]

Indeed. People start thinking that Hanukkah is "the Jewish Xmas" and "so we're all good."

I've always thought that really, to be "fair" would mean to play up the minority holiday at the time when an important one actually HAPPENS, and specifically when the majority kids don't have a holiday so they have a turn to feel "not part of it, but we learned about it in school."

This.

Thank you.

Here's a calendar that is the most comprehensive I could find:

http://www.earthcalendar.net/index.php

[thoughtful]

On the main topic: It must be nice to be so removed from any real war that the lack of full acknowledgment of your religious holiday by a Walmart clerk can be construed as an act of war.

Absolutely.

A few years ago, I noticed a major retailer put out a flyer wishing a happy "festive season"....in September, since Rosh Hashana came around the same time as Eid al-fitr that year.

That's interesting, and it reminds me of something else about the connection between commerce and acknowledging various traditions.

One of the odd things about people protesting "Happy Holidays" is that I can remember seeing and hearing it when I was a child, and I'm in my late 50s.

I always assumed it meant Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's Eve/Day, and was more about encouraging people to party hearty, have company over, and buy what was being sold, especially food and drink.

Maybe businesses were trying to be inclusive of Jews back then (Kwanzaa didn't exist yet) -- I dunno.

[thoughtful]

Wait, what's the cheesecake holiday?

Dairy products are traditional on Shavuot Silly us, we never thought of cheesecake -- I think my family thought of it as the "blintzes and sour cream" holiday.

I also think that "happy holidays" can be taken in a purely secular way. "Holidays", in this case, means that period in December and January when schools close down and most people have at least a few extra days off from work.

"Holiday" meaning vacation or travel is not used in any part of the US that I know of -- am I wrong?

I've never heard someone say "I'm going on holiday" for a vacation, unless they were British.

[thoughtful]

ETA: One of my Facebook friends just posted this, which made me laugh.

That's great.

But it needs MORE CAPS... AND ELIPSES (ELIPSISES?)::: DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

:lol:

[jenny_islander]

Dairy products are traditional on Shavuot Silly us, we never thought of cheesecake -- I think my family thought of it as the "blintzes and sour cream" holiday.

"Holiday" meaning vacation or travel is not used in any part of the US that I know of -- am I wrong?

I've never heard someone say "I'm going on holiday" for a vacation, unless they were British.

When I was a young 'un, it was understood that the Holidays began on or the day after Thanksgiving and ended on either New Year's Eve or New Year's Day. Shopping, parties, seasonal music, gifts, red and green decorations with a sprinkling of blue and white, traditional symbols (snowflakes, bells, snowmen), twinkle lights everywhere, evergreens ditto, etc.

[O Latin]

Dairy products are traditional on Shavuot Silly us, we never thought of cheesecake -- I think my family thought of it as the "blintzes and sour cream" holiday.

"Holiday" meaning vacation or travel is not used in any part of the US that I know of -- am I wrong?

I've never heard someone say "I'm going on holiday" for a vacation, unless they were British.

I don't think it's used to refer to travel, but most people I know refer to any day off from work or school as a holiday, including things like Presidents Day, Columbus Day, Labor Day, and others that don't really have much meaning, religious or otherwise, beyond being an extra day to sleep in.

[Mama Mia]

I saw one of the Facebook posts right after I read this thread. This one included the line " if this offends you, go ahead and delete me" .... That irritated me more than anything else in the whole "war on Christmas" blurb.

I commented that I didn't understand why someone would actually delete a friend ( or in this case a relative ) because they disagreed with some political post.. I mean really, how huge of an over-reaction would that be ???

The whole victim / persecution mentality is seriously annoying.

I live in one of the most far left areas in the U.S., and people still say "Merry Christmas" as often as they say "Happy Holiday's".. so I just don't understand where this far right belief that there is a "war" on Christmas is coming from ?

I look at it similarly to the argument regarding same sex marriage being a threat to heterosexual marriages.

I'm a straight woman, I love my Husband. If he were gone I would still be attracted to Men. Every other couple in my neighborhood /town/ state could be engaged in a same sex marriage --- but I would still want to be married to a man, my husband would still want to be a marriage. It wouldn't change my preference just because someone else makes a different choice -- it isn't a threat to my marriage or to my identity.

It's the same with the "Merry Christmas"/ "Happy Holidays" .. I know that I'm celebrating Christmas, I know that in addition to the Christmas Trees and Santa Claus and gifts - I'm also celebrating the birth of Christ because I'm Christian. Why would it threaten me somehow if everyone around me is celebrating a different holiday ? Or just enjoying the lights, or the good deals on toys or having their kids get stuff from Santa ( or ignoring the whole thing ) ?? My beliefs won't change if someone says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.

It seems , to me, that the people who get the most up-in-arms about all these perceived threats to their beliefs must have pretty flimsy beliefs.

[NurseNell]

When I was a young 'un, it was understood that the Holidays began on or the day after Thanksgiving and ended on either New Year's Eve or New Year's Day. Shopping, parties, seasonal music, gifts, red and green decorations with a sprinkling of blue and white, traditional symbols (snowflakes, bells, snowmen), twinkle lights everywhere, evergreens ditto, etc.

We always understood that Christmas ended on the Epiphany, the day that is celebrated as the arrival of the wise men. We put our tree up on Xmas eve, down on Epiphany. It's the 12th day of Christmas.

[CanadianHippie]

We always understood that Christmas ended on the Epiphany, the day that is celebrated as the arrival of the wise men. We put our tree up on Xmas eve, down on Epiphany. It's the 12th day of Christmas.

In my house the holidays start when we get the motivation to decorate and end when we remember to take them down... :lol:

[Samantha]

I saw one of the Facebook posts right after I read this thread. This one included the line " if this offends you, go ahead and delete me" .... That irritated me more than anything else in the whole "war on Christmas" blurb.

I commented that I didn't understand why someone would actually delete a friend ( or in this case a relative ) because they disagreed with some political post.. I mean really, how huge of an over-reaction would that be ???

The whole victim / persecution mentality is seriously annoying.

Yeah, I had a friend delete me for complaining about the "War on Christmas" a couple years back. I had just left mormonism and Christianity and my world was upside down. And I made a simple complaint on my facebook about how rude it is to accuse people of a "leftist agenda" for saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. I didn't think it'd start any problems because most of my friends are atheist or ex-mormons.

Well then a friend IMed me and told me that she would never say Happy Holidays only Merry Christmas and I needed to accept that. I tried to explain that it had nothing to do with her but instead someone else who had insulted me. So then she told me she was sick of my whining about religion and that it wasn't Jesus' fault that I had belonged to a cult and that she'd chose God over a friend any day. And then she deleted me. It still makes me scratch my head of why she was so offended.

[CanadianHippie]

Yeah, I had a friend delete me for complaining about the "War on Christmas" a couple years back. I had just left mormonism and Christianity and my world was upside down. And I made a simple complaint on my facebook about how rude it is to accuse people of a "leftist agenda" for saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. I didn't think it'd start any problems because most of my friends are atheist or ex-mormons.

Well then a friend IMed me and told me that she would never say Happy Holidays only Merry Christmas and I needed to accept that. I tried to explain that it had nothing to do with her but instead someone else who had insulted me. So then she told me she was sick of my whining about religion and that it wasn't Jesus' fault that I had belonged to a cult and that she'd chose God over a friend any day. And then she deleted me. It still makes me scratch my head of why she was so offended.

On the vein of confusing de-friending, I had someone de-friend me because I stated my religious beliefs as agnostic. I fretted for a while, then realized she wasn't the kind of friend I wanted anyway.

[ChickeyMonkey]

This is kind of interesting. I went and did some googling and found this site http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/orig ... ee-faq.htm and I had to click on it because it is a fundie approved source, Jesus is built right into the title! Anyway, they list a bunch of possible origins but say we don't really know for sure how it originated and then they say:

So there you go. KEEP CHRIST...IN CHRISTMAS YOU HEATHEN::: PAGANS!!!!! STOP TALKING AND ACCEPT JESUS::: INTO YOUR HEARTS...HE IS THE REASON...FOR THE SEASON!!!!!

I win. See: use of all caps :)

Great. Now I have the image of a creepy Jesus figure crouching among the Christmas trees at a Xmas tree farm, watching....waiting....until some blissfully unaware family walks by so that he can attack them.

On another note, I didn't know about the fried/greasy food thing for Hanukkah until my coworker mentioned it. He only mentioned it because his wife may have been on the healthy eating train and didn't approve of him eating fried foods. I dunno. He was really happy about getting to eat donuts, though! :)