The war on Christmas

[Rosa]

All the folks I know who celebrate Kwanzaa (not many, but they did observe it at my son's daycare the years he was there) are either Muslim or Baptist. It's not a religious holiday, it's a political one. Like May Day or Memorial Day or Labor Day.

[NurseNell]

I think it is very mainstream to believe that December is about Christmas, and anyone who does not fully get into the spirit is not a Real American. My little sister works at Walgreens and gets bitched at *every single day* by several customers over the Happy Holidays issue. This is in a blue state. Customers have actually demanded to talk to the manager because she said that and not Merry Christmas. This 19 year old girl is singlehandedly destroying American culture by not specifically referring to another religion's holiday in every single conversation. It's just ridiculous.

(And a customer got mad at her yesterday because the store stocks African American baby dolls, maybe that is just where the crayzees shop?)

Oops sorry, I was thinking of something else. yes, you're right. I cannot believe someone would demand to talk to a manager about something that in the big picture is really very small.

[2xx1xy1JD]

MY ELLIPSES::: ARE BETTER::: THEY COVER THE TOP::: AND BOTTOM::: SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT FORGETTING ANYTHING!::: PLUS I HAVE A DANCING BANANA IN A TUX::: THAT MAKES IT AWESOME::: :banana-tux:

Can we do an addendum to Godwin's Law? It should say that the first person who resorts to ALL CAPS loses.

Example of where the ALL CAPS argument leads (see the comments section): http://thoughtsofasj.blogspot.com/2011/ ... ments.html

[darareaksmey]

[quote="ElphabaGalinda

Slightly related - I absolutely love it when my non-Jewish friends say Shana Tova to me on Rosh Hashana. So I think if you're friends with someone you should know when their important holidays are and what you would say to wish them a happy one. Too complicated for strangers, but for friends it's a nice thing to do. I absolutely hate it when people who i'm friends with, who i've known for years, and know full well I don't celebrate Christmas give me Christmas cards.

quote]

Is it respectful to wish a Jewish person "Happy New Year" instead of the Hebrew (which I didn't know then, but do now, I guess)? I have a lovely customer who is an elderly Jewish lady. I don't see her often, but I did see her right at Rosh Hashanah this fall, and I said, "Happy New Year, Mrs. L," and she said, "Thank you very much." Later I wondered if that was appropriate, but I figured since I did hope she was having a pleasant holiday, she would take it in the spirit in which I intended it even if it wasn't exactly the proper thing to say.

[emmiedahl]

I don't speak for all Jews, but... if you say Merry Christmas to me, I will not be offended. If you are not Jewish and you refer to my holidays at all, it is a pleasant surprise, even if you do so in English or in really bad Hebrew (which happens to be the only Hebrew dialect I speak fluently anyway). I want for everyone to enjoy their winter holidays and spread goodwill, nothing wrong with that. We celebrate Christmas in my mixed religion home, but I imagine I would feel the same way if we did not.

My religion is not some speshul snowflake that needs to be deferred to by all people in a specifically Jewish manner, kwim? I understand and accept that minority holidays are off the mainstream radar. I think it is sweet when people go out of their way to be sensitive because it is 'above and beyond'.

[ElphabaGalinda]

[quote="ElphabaGalinda

Slightly related - I absolutely love it when my non-Jewish friends say Shana Tova to me on Rosh Hashana. So I think if you're friends with someone you should know when their important holidays are and what you would say to wish them a happy one. Too complicated for strangers, but for friends it's a nice thing to do. I absolutely hate it when people who i'm friends with, who i've known for years, and know full well I don't celebrate Christmas give me Christmas cards.

quote]

Is it respectful to wish a Jewish person "Happy New Year" instead of the Hebrew (which I didn't know then, but do now, I guess)? I have a lovely customer who is an elderly Jewish lady. I don't see her often, but I did see her right at Rosh Hashanah this fall, and I said, "Happy New Year, Mrs. L," and she said, "Thank you very much." Later I wondered if that was appropriate, but I figured since I did hope she was having a pleasant holiday, she would take it in the spirit in which I intended it even if it wasn't exactly the proper thing to say.

[2xx1xy1JD]

On the main topic: It must be nice to be so removed from any real war that the lack of full acknowledgment of your religious holiday by a Walmart clerk can be construed as an act of war. Look, if I went around cutting down your Christmas tree and having secret police watch for houses with Christmas lights so that their occupants could be hauled off to a gulag in the middle of the night, THAT would be a war on Christmas.

I agree with Thoughtful that as a Jew, I'm actually pretty indifferent on whether someone wishes me Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas. Unless you are wishing me a good holiday in Sept/Oct or March/April, you aren't doing it because of MY holiday anyway. To be fair, though, at least the local supermarkets have figured out how to celebrate various religious/cultural holidays when they occur. A few years ago, I noticed a major retailer put out a flyer wishing a happy "festive season"....in September, since Rosh Hashana came around the same time as Eid al-fitr that year.

Yes, Happy New Year is fine for Rosh Hashana. It's nice if a non-Jew thinks to say it, because I wouldn't otherwise expect it.

My standard response is "same to you". I would only have a negative response to Xmas rants.

And yes, for those who asked, our religion really does tell us to eat greasy foods like jelly donuts and fried potato pancakes on Hanukkah. We also have a cheescake holiday in May/June, and a "drink till you're stupid" holiday in Feb/March.

[emmiedahl]

And yes, for those who asked, our religion really does tell us to eat greasy foods like jelly donuts and fried potato pancakes on Hanukkah. We also have a cheescake holiday in May/June, and a "drink till you're stupid" holiday in Feb/March.

Don't tell them that! It's a secret! One of those Jewish conspiracies that runs the globe. :D

[Linnea]

Wait, what's the cheesecake holiday?

I grew up "culturally Christian", but in an area where there were a fair number of Jewish people. I was always taught that it was rude to say "Merry Christmas" to someone you didn't know personally, because it was rude to make assumptions about other people's religion.

I also think that "happy holidays" can be taken in a purely secular way. "Holidays", in this case, means that period in December and January when schools close down and most people have at least a few extra days off from work.

[O Latin]

I was thinking about this some more and I realized I can kind of understand where some of the "war on Christmas" people are coming from. When I was much more devoutly Christian than I am now, I used to get annoyed by people who spent eleven months out of the year railing against the evils of organized religion but then went absolutely gaga for Christmas. I understand that Christmas is (IMO) more of a secular holiday than a religious one, but I felt like those people were cheating or being hypocritical by being anti-religion until religion was fun and then they were all over it. For the record, I am over that now and I think it's fine for people to find their own meaning in something even if it isn't the original, intended meaning. I was just trying to say that that's one possible motivation of the "war on Christmas" folks. I didn't want to impose Christianity on anyone. I just didn't want people who weren't Christian imposing secular culture on Christian holidays.

I think the deeper issue is that, even if you take religion completely out of it, everyone has their own idea of what Christmas should be and anyone who does it differently is doing it wrong. I've come to be just as annoyed with the anti-consumerism, anti-Christmas hype types as with the "I don't want to hear happy holidays" people. If you want to have a simple, quiet Christmas because that's what's most special to you, go ahead. Just because I choose to go to the mall and make Christmas cards and bake five dozen cookies and start listening to Christmas music before Thanksgiving doesn't mean I'm evil. I do those things because they have meaning to me. I get absolutely giddy at the thought of spending ten hours at church on Christmas Eve, but find Christmas morning itself to be kind of a let-down. My mom is the opposite. She can't wait to get away from the crowded church and loves spending all Christmas Day lying on the couch in her pajamas. We have different ideas about what's important at Christmas, and that's okay. There is not one right way to do Christmas. I think if people could understand that, there would be less of this, "The Wal-mart clerk said happy holidays! Persecution!!!!!!11!11!" nonsense.

[emmiedahl]

Wait, what's the cheesecake holiday?

Shavuot

[Linnea]

Shavuot

(googling) Cool!

[MaroonMandy]

I guess I'm a bad Christian (or a good one depending on how you look at it). The few times someone has said "Happy Hanukkah" to me, I just said "Thanks, you too," which is the exact same thing I say when someone tells me "Merry Christmas."

I don't get upset, I don't get my panties in a knot and I sure as hell don't act superior and rude because someone would dare to celebrate a holiday I don't.

One when I was a kid I remember watching a holiday themed movie with my dad and the kids kept alternating "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Hanukkah" to the people they met on the street. I asked my dad why they said both and he explained that not everyone celebrated Christmas. He said only saying one of them and ignoring the other was like only with people born in June a happy birthday and ignoring everyone else. It made sense to me. Now if we could only explain it to others...

[Angri-la]

I think it is very mainstream to believe that December is about Christmas, and anyone who does not fully get into the spirit is not a Real American. My little sister works at Walgreens and gets bitched at *every single day* by several customers over the Happy Holidays issue. This is in a blue state. Customers have actually demanded to talk to the manager because she said that and not Merry Christmas. This 19 year old girl is singlehandedly destroying American culture by not specifically referring to another religion's holiday in every single conversation. It's just ridiculous.

(And a customer got mad at her yesterday because the store stocks African American baby dolls, maybe that is just where the crayzees shop?)

I would think the issue with stocking African American baby dolls is much more disturbing than a teenager saying "Happy Holidays" in her blue apron. Really? In 2011?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Shavuot

Yes. There's a strong tradition of eating dairy products, so it's become the ice cream and cheesecake holiday. I suppose the equivalent of religious Christians complaining about the commercialization of Christmas would be Jews in Israel getting "Torah is the reason for the season" cards and complaining about secular Israelis focusing on pizza and ice cream and cheesecake. Secular Jews in North America are only vaguely aware that the holiday exists, even though it's far more important than Hanukkah since it's supposed to be the day that Moses received the tablets on Mt. Sinai.

[emmiedahl]

I would think the issue with stocking African American baby dolls is much more disturbing than a teenager saying "Happy Holidays" in her blue apron. Really? In 2011?

I don't really know what the problem was, my sister said that the customer got mad that some of the dolls were AA. Maybe they were out of white baby dolls? L was not sure, but the customer was enraged and stormed off.

L has some horror stories and I wish I was more surprised at how rude people are. She *is* a teenager in a blue apron, a minimum wage employee who has no control over anything at the store.

[dawbs]

I think it is very mainstream to believe that December is about Christmas, and anyone who does not fully get into the spirit is not a Real American. My little sister works at Walgreens and gets bitched at *every single day* by several customers over the Happy Holidays issue. This is in a blue state. Customers have actually demanded to talk to the manager because she said that and not Merry Christmas. This 19 year old girl is singlehandedly destroying American culture by not specifically referring to another religion's holiday in every single conversation. It's just ridiculous.

(And a customer got mad at her yesterday because the store stocks African American baby dolls, maybe that is just where the crayzees shop?)

Mr Dawbs used to assistant manager at a rite-aid.

I think that people who do 90% of their Christmas shopping at chain drug-stores have a higher-than-average incidence of the crazy--we both worked retail at the same time and his level of crazy, 3 blocks away from the store where I worked was leaps-and-bounds different.

(on the topic of this thread, I personally don't really 'get' why a 'holiday tree' is OK and a 'Christmas tree' isn't. I find that calling it a 'holiday tree' just makes the war-on-christmas people irritated and allows the rest of the population to pretend they're acknowledging other's traditions/religions/sensitivities while just re-naming Christmas items)

[O Latin]

Mr Dawbs used to assistant manager at a rite-aid.

I think that people who do 90% of their Christmas shopping at chain drug-stores have a higher-than-average incidence of the crazy--we both worked retail at the same time and his level of crazy, 3 blocks away from the store where I worked was leaps-and-bounds different.

(on the topic of this thread, I personally don't really 'get' why a 'holiday tree' is OK and a 'Christmas tree' isn't. I find that calling it a 'holiday tree' just makes the war-on-christmas people irritated and allows the rest of the population to pretend they're acknowledging other's traditions/religions/sensitivities while just re-naming Christmas items)

Yes, this. I think it's great to be inclusive and recognize that not everyone celebrates Christmas, but what other holiday around this time of year involves bringing a tree inside and putting lights on it (yes, I know that Christmas trees did not originate in Christianity, but they have become a Christmas thing)?

I know it's really not a big deal, and I don't care what they call the tree at the state capitol or in the town square or wherever. But I agree with Dawbs that renaming a ubiquitous symbol of the dominant holiday celebrated by the majority =/= inclusiveness.

[bananacat]

Christmas trees weren't invented by Christians. They're yet another winter holiday tradition that were co-opted when Christians took over the holiday. So logically, it doesn't bother me a bit to separate trees from Christmas.

[emmiedahl]

Christmas trees weren't invented by Christians. They're yet another winter holiday tradition that were co-opted when Christians took over the holiday. So logically, it doesn't bother me a bit to separate trees from Christmas.

Yes, they were not a Christian thing for most of their usage, so I have no problem with 'holiday tree'. Right now we have one with a skull garland, and we are going to put other pirate-themed things on it instead of traditional ornaments. Flame away.

I mean, if someone made a nativity scene with baby aliens in it, I could see the outcry. That is arguably a Christian thing. But trees? No, you all cannot claim the religious copyright on a tree.

[Triplet3]

Um, Christmas trees were actually a Christian invention; see jenny_islander's post on the subject earlier in the thread. There is NO historical evidence to link Christians' use of decorated, indoor trees with pre-Christian pagan traditions. Reading ancient origins into modern calendar customs was a favourite pastime of folklorists decades ago, and this has continued to the present day among the general public, but these suppositions are not supported by current academic research. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I really recommend Steve Roud's book 'The English Year' and Ronald Hutton's books on the history of calendar customs.

[NurseNell]

I don't speak for all Jews, but... if you say Merry Christmas to me, I will not be offended. If you are not Jewish and you refer to my holidays at all, it is a pleasant surprise, even if you do so in English or in really bad Hebrew (which happens to be the only Hebrew dialect I speak fluently anyway). I want for everyone to enjoy their winter holidays and spread goodwill, nothing wrong with that. We celebrate Christmas in my mixed religion home, but I imagine I would feel the same way if we did not.

Our doctor was that way too. When you're the only Jewish family in town you'd almost have to be that way.

[emmiedahl]

Um, Christmas trees were actually a Christian invention; see jenny_islander's post on the subject earlier in the thread. There is NO historical evidence to link Christians' use of decorated, indoor trees with pre-Christian pagan traditions. Reading ancient origins into modern calendar customs was a favourite pastime of folklorists decades ago, and this has continued to the present day among the general public, but these suppositions are not supported by current academic research. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I really recommend Steve Roud's book 'The English Year' and Ronald Hutton's books on the history of calendar customs.

Roman brought in evergreen branches and decorated them during Saturnalia in mid to late December. They also decorated outdoor trees. The habit of actually chopping down a tree and bringing the whole thing inside evolved later under the Christians, but it was a derivative of pagan customs.

[Triplet3]

Roman brought in evergreen branches and decorated them during Saturnalia in mid to late December. They also decorated outdoor trees. The habit of actually chopping down a tree and bringing the whole thing inside evolved later under the Christians, but it was a derivative of pagan customs.

There isn't any historical evidence to link the traditions of the pagan Romans with the Christian custom that started well over 1000 years later.

Regarding the general use of evergreens as Christmas decorations, in England there is no evidence to support the (often asserted) assumption that pre-Christian inhabitants decorated their homes and temples with evergreens around the winter solstice.

[Alecto]

Um, Christmas trees were actually a Christian invention; see jenny_islander's post on the subject earlier in the thread. There is NO historical evidence to link Christians' use of decorated, indoor trees with pre-Christian pagan traditions. Reading ancient origins into modern calendar customs was a favourite pastime of folklorists decades ago, and this has continued to the present day among the general public, but these suppositions are not supported by current academic research. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I really recommend Steve Roud's book 'The English Year' and Ronald Hutton's books on the history of calendar customs.

Sorry, her post is incorrect.

The tradition of bringing greenery in and also the tradition of decorating trees with small gifts come from pre-Christian Germanic tribal beliefs. It was believed that bringing in greenery would help bring back the sun during Yule. Also, trees were decorated with offerings to the Wild Hunt long before Christian influence.