Letting go of fundy ideas/upbringing

[fundifugee]

AD, it is a process. It doesn't happen all at once. I started making the move when I was 17, step by step, and I don't think I was really 'out' until around 25 or so; and even then there were a few years of push-back, demands, requests, offers, etc to 'reel me back in'. It is a physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual process. Unless you are someone who finds they have to cut off family contact altogether (and even if you are), you will not ever be completely rid of something that's shaped you your entire life. Like a muscle, the more you flex the critical thinking, the stronger it will get. The process will continue your whole life. (If I had known, at age 16, where I would be spiritually and philosophically at age 36, I would have been shocked and appalled.)

I agree that getting physical and financial independence is a major and important step of anybody's process of growing up.

Keep reading and learning and, when possible, talking to and meeting people from different backgrounds and perspectives. If you seem too odd to your same-culture counterparts, I recommend international students (or coworkers). I learned a TON from immigrant students at the colleges I attended, and immigrant coworkers at the market where I worked, and they were far less judgemental (and often even appreciative) of my fundie-upbringing-quirkiness/ignorance/innocence/outsider status. My friends from Africa, Latin America, and Southeast Asia have enriched my life immeasurably, as well as helping with providing the mindquakes of completely different perspectives and backgrounds.

[Austin]

I don't know if I'm entirely understanding your question properly, but my answer would be, well, he kind of did. In over a year of doing FAM, we came to the conclusion that we knew when I was ovulating, because that was when I felt most interested. It is the reason we stuck with FAM (ie used barrier methods when necessary) rather than going all the way to NFP and why DH went for the snip after our last baby.

That's your experience and I don't doubt it, but it is hardly universal.

[AnnoDomini]

These are good ideas, and many of them I am working on. I'm taking college courses, gradually rebuilding my skill with money (I used to be great but my skills have eroded the closer and closer May 21 got) and trying to learn how to believe in the future after so long without it.

[dawbs]

That's your experience and I don't doubt it, but it is hardly universal.

From talking to women who were using FAM, it seems pretty common.

I wouldn't say universal, but incredibly common.

[devilsadvocate]

One other point I'd make: There can be selfish reasons for having children, and unselfish reasons for not having children.

I plan to have children someday, but I would never say that automatically makes me less selfish than someone who never has kids. Sometimes not having kids allows someone give more to others outside their own family than they otherwise would have been able to.

Some people may find that not having children gives them time to do more charity work or volunteer work. What if by not having children, that frees time for you to become a mentor to a disadvantaged child outside of your family that has no other positive role models?

What if instead of spending money on raising your own child, you spent that money on feeding the hungry homeless people out there?

Perhaps having a biological child is not the right path for you, but maybe someday you might decide you'd like to be a foster parent to a child who otherwise would never have a loving home. Is that selfish? I really don't think it is.

I know a lot of people who don't have kids that instead do a lot to help abused and homeless animals. Some people might not think that's important work, but I do. I am grateful for those who care enough to try to stop some of the suffering in the world, whether it's animal or human suffering.

[Ms A E]

Hello, De-lurking to post my thoughts on this one. Long-time lurker, first time poster. ;)

Anyway, AD, I was brought up in a fundie-light/fundie-medium household that was severely emotionally dysfunctional. While some of your experiences and those of other fundies remind me of my own upbringing, I also had significantly more freedom of thought and action than many of the families discussed here. However, I am very familiar with the use of religion and isolation to manipulate others, and have definitely been through my own process of breaking away from my family's dysfunctional way of being in the world. I am still very much on my journey to a more fulfilling life, and have not 'arrived' by any means, but I am also in so much of a better place than I was as an adolescent.

I had some thoughts on things I have done/am doing that have helped me escape and become more healthy, and thought I'd share:

10.) Use the internet. - It seems you have decent access to the internet, so use it to your advantage! Obviously, you're already doing that by posting at FJ, but continue to expand your horizons. Maybe look at some news websites that you not be allowed in your family: i.e. NPR, etc. There's no need to be extreme, just find some more-middle-of-the-road news sources (i.e. The Liberal Media ), and start reading and thinking about what they have to say.

9.) Develop a creative outlet. - It's so important to be able to express what is going on inside of you! Find something creative that YOU (not your mother, not your pastor's wife) like to do, and get to it! For some people this may be drawing, journaling, painting, sewing, writing poetry/stories, knitting, pottery - there are so many things! Most communities offer low-cost classes in many creative pursuits, so take advantage of these opportunities and find something you like. (Look at the Parks & Recreation website of your city/county/parish). NB: Remember NOT to do something that is triggering of your fundie experiences. I.e. if you were a slave to sewing for your mother your entire childhood, then maybe sewing isn't right for you.

8.) Read. - Read classics and modern books and everything in between! Remember that you don't have to agree with everything you read, but try to understand WHY someone might present the views they do in their literary work.

7.) Watch TV/ Movies - Put your internet connection to good use and watch Hulu or Netflix streaming. Movies and tv play a huge part in culture, and so watching will not only be entertaining (at least sometimes), but also will give you another window on how other people live. Look up 'Top 10 Movies of the Decade' or whatever and watch all of them. I still do this sometimes, to mend my woefully inadequate grasp of pop culture. (When he makes pop-culture references, I still have to remind my husband that I watched no TV before 2005.)

6.) Listen to the radio. - I think Jane Austen (see #8) and listening to 'secular' music may be almost single-handedly responsible for my ability to begin to leave my unhealthy upbringing behind at age 18. While "How Jane Austen Helped Me Grow a Self" is another post entirely, I think listening to different types of 'secular' music helped put my many thoughts and feelings into words, and let me know that I wasn't alone in the world thinking and feeling the way I did. Try it!

5.) Travel/ Get out of your house. - Even if you cannot afford to travel, learn the bus system in your city/area and go to local events. Not only will getting away from unhealthy family dynamics be good for you, but it will also expose you to new people/activities/ideas. I know I am still astounded by how NICE 'secular' people are - they're lovely! I mean, there are always scary people where ever you go, but now I find excessively religious people much more frightening! - So find a local festival and see what you learn!

4.) Go to school. - Sounds like you're already doing this, but keep at it! Make sure you are interacting with your classmates before, during, and after class. Attend university events (i.e. concerts, clubs, plays, etc.) Take classes that are outside your comfort zone. Use this resource for all it's worth.

3.) Get a job. - Universities frequently have work/study programs if you qualify, and even if you do not, they often have many part-time jobs available. Not only will a job give you a 'legitimate' (ok, maybe not to your family!) reason to be out of the house, but that way you can start saving money by to do what You want to do. Additionally, you can start doing/buying things just for you, i.e. craft supplies, clothes, movies, therapy, etc.

2.) Go to therapy. - Therapy has quite possibly saved my life, and I know that it is because of good therapy and medication that I can actually be happy today. Moreover, I like myself, am proud of my life and the work I do, and am in a healthy romantic relationship. NONE of these things were true when I was still drinking the kool-aid, and I think therapy has been key in my journey out of the crazy. I've had good therapists and bad therapists, so remember that you get to find one that's right for you. But find one and Stick With It.

1.) Move out. - This may at this time be a goal rather than an immediate reality. But make this a goal. I was terrified, Terrfied! when I left home. I thought my depression would increase astronomically, and that I'd never be ok again. And boy was I wrong! Best thing that ever happened to me. So talk with your therapist, make a plan, process it, and figure out what you have to do to make your plan a reality. I can tell you for sure, tho, that it is only by moving out that you will be able to figure out who YOU are as a person. The kool-aid haze of unhealthy family makes it impossible to see ourselves while under the influence.

Best of luck to you, and to all who are making their way out. It truly does get better, and you truly can be ok. Take a baby-step towards health.

(And, wow, this is the longest freaking post ever. Sorry about that.)

[pixydust]

First, welcome MsA E, I hope that you keep on posting! You seem to have a lot of really great ideas. :D

Anno, what Ms A E said, about 1,000 times! Things that really helped me get out of crazy fundieland were secular music and watching Saturday Night Live. I learned that even if I disagreed with something or thought it was wrong, I could still laugh at it and expose my self to it (we were taught to turn off TVshows that went against what we believed) and I was still me, I didn't instantly become a "bad" person. Same thing with watching my first "R" rated movie (Terminator 2, btw)....I didn't go out and kill people because I watched a movie.

Also, do you have friends? If so, you need to go do things with them. If not, find some! Talk to the girls in your classes, go out for coffee with them, go to events at your school (sporting events, plays, performances, art shows, etc). If you are shy (I'm shy in person), get a novel from the library and carry it with you around campus....someone will strike up a conversation with you about it (so you have to read it, haha). My suggestion for a book is "The Help" by Kathryn Stocket, I'm reading it right now.

Good luck with all of this, you can do it, just take little steps.

[emmiedahl]

That's your experience and I don't doubt it, but it is hardly universal.

The heat cycles seen in some mammals are completely different than the hormonal swings seen in humans. It is a rare human female who is only sexually interested while ovulating, and a rare humn male who has no interest in sex except with ovulating women. I have done NFP and noticed that the times of the month that I most wanted to have sex are also those in which I was fertile, but I do have a sex drive during the rest of the month as well. And my husband has only rarely turned me down, so I think he finds sex appealing when I am not ovulating.

If God wanted human sex to be purely procreative, it would only be appealing during fertile times, the way it happens in cats and dogs and other "heat" regulated animals. From an evolutionary perspective, sex during non-fertile times builds the human pairing bond that is much stronger than that seen in most other mammals.

[Ms A E]

Thanks Pixydust! We'll see what I can do about more posts. ;)

I learned that even if I disagreed with something or thought it was wrong, I could still laugh at it and expose my self to it (we were taught to turn off TVshows that went against what we believed) and I was still me, I didn't instantly become a "bad" person. Same thing with watching my first "R" rated movie (Terminator 2, btw)....I didn't go out and kill people because I watched a movie.

Meanwhile, I totally agree with you about watching/listening to 'secular' media! - Just because you heard/saw it doesn't mean you did it! And you are not bad for thinking about it, nor does it have the power to turn you into a bad person! - I think fundies have trouble holding the distinction between fantasy and reality!

And my first 'R' movie was Braveheart. My mother about had kittens.

[pixydust]

I think fundies have trouble holding the distinction between fantasy and reality!

and self control! My mom was so worried about my brother and I because of the music we listened to. We were not depressed because of the music that we listened to, we were depressed because of the abuse. I was a huge fan of Nirvana, but I didn't become a drug addict, kill myself, or marry Courtney Love just because Kurt Cobain did!

[FakePigtails]

The job suggestion is one of many excellent ones. Could you get a seasonal retail job to quickly add to your savings? I worked part-time in high school and think it's a great way to learn to work in groups and deal with the public (as much as retail can stink, it's really great for that!).

I think making a plan towards moving out would be good, whatever that timeline is to you. There are websites that go through everything you'll need to deal with so you can be prepared and know what to save up before taking the plunge. Just google things like "first apartment tips" and there are some good articles. I've also found good advice for any and all money-related issues on websites like Forbes, CNN Money, Kiplingers, etc.

With the having children issues, I'd try to put that on the back burner for a while. You have time before having children is even a possibility and it's likely your beliefs on that will change on their own in the meantime, without even putting energy into worrying about it.

[wtylcf]

AnnoDomini, I've been following your story and I'm really happy that you've been waking up to the outside world outside fundie-land. In my experience, changing one's beliefs can be a difficult and drawn-out process. If your beliefs end up in an ambiguous place, it seems way less defensible to others than a black and white "biblical" worldview. It's also way too easy for fundie influences to guilt you back into a place of submission because of their expectations for you - it's really hard to disappoint those we used to hold in high esteem. For this reason, moving out would be a great first step towards independence, placing some distance between yourself and your family so you can interact with them on your own terms.

In addition to others' comments about finding a part-time job to provide income for you to support yourself, I think living with roommates could be a good way to make living independently financially viable. You could solicit friends-of-friends to see if anyone wants to share an apartment, or browse the "room in shared accommodations" postings at colleges/universities, or venture into the "shared apartment" postings on Craigslist. It can be scary to share a place with strangers, but it's a lot cheaper than renting alone, and with some luck and discernment during the interview process, it can work out well.

[JesusFightClub]

Thanks Pixydust! We'll see what I can do about more posts. ;)

Meanwhile, I totally agree with you about watching/listening to 'secular' media! - Just because you heard/saw it doesn't mean you did it! And you are not bad for thinking about it, nor does it have the power to turn you into a bad person! - I think fundies have trouble holding the distinction between fantasy and reality!

And my first 'R' movie was Braveheart. My mother about had kittens.

Seconding the hope you keep on posting! Your first post should be printed out and handed to every fundie maiden we can find.

Braveheart was shite though, and I may be excommunicated from Scotland for saying that ;)

[browncoatslytherin]

Braveheart was shite though, and I may be excommunicated from Scotland for saying that ;)

ot, but i also think braveheart was shit, and i'm part scottish myself.

[JesusFightClub]

ot, but i also think braveheart was shit, and i'm part scottish myself.

Yes! A sister in Braveheart-hating! :)

I'm in favour of independence for Scotland but I hate all these stupid cliches which is basically all the film is. We had to watch it in high school as part of our curriculum and it stirred up a bad atmosphere. Also, it's shite, as previously mentioned. ;)

Whereabouts are your Scottish family from? I'm in the Central Belt but I lived most of my life in rural Scotland.

[sacrilicious]

Although I wasn't raised fundie my parents kept us as sheltered as they could in many ways (mainly certain kinds media and my mom being afraid of letting us go out on our own for a long time) and I am also very shy, so branching out has been somewhat of a struggle for me.

Things that have already been said but that have helped expand my horizons:

~reading, reading, reading

~getting a job, any job

~going to school

~going to events: cultural fairs, art fairs, etc

I would also suggest, if it hasn't been suggested already, joining a club or sport through your school. Seeing a smaller group of people on a regular basis with a common hobby makes it a lot easier to get to know them and hopefully make friends. I think I saw videos of you singing on youtube (from watching the video of your sister). Have you thought about joining a church and singing in the choir? Or is there a choir or glee club or something at your college?

[sacrilicious]

Yes! A sister in Braveheart-hating! :)

I'm in favour of independence for Scotland but I hate all these stupid cliches which is basically all the film is. We had to watch it in high school as part of our curriculum and it stirred up a bad atmosphere. Also, it's shite, as previously mentioned. ;)

Whereabouts are your Scottish family from? I'm in the Central Belt but I lived most of my life in rural Scotland.

Haha I liked Braveheart but I'm a sucker for historical movies, no matter how crappy. Plus I really liked the score. My ancestry is a mostly a mixture of English, Irish, and Welsh, but alas, no Scottish.

[JesusFightClub]

Hey, sacrilicious, the English, Irish and Welsh are great too. For a start Welsh accents are the best ever. :) I'm jealous of all Welsh people, who can make ANYTHING sound good.

PS. avatar love

[NurseNell]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic, but....

If God wanted to be in control of our fertility why didn't He give us a heat cycle like every other mammal?

My roomie in college did a paper on exactly this for a philosophy or religion class at our Catholic women's college. If the only purpose of sex was procreation then we would have estrus cycles instead of menstrual cycles.

[theologygeek]

My family has been fundy for a long time and I went right along with it, but this year I have stopped being quite so fundy. Letting go of some things I used to believe in and reexamining others, trying to let go of things.

An example: Though I've been sure for a while now that I'd be a terrible mother, I was taught that any birth control was against God, that wives who used it were 'selfish' to put their own lives/desires ahead of a potential child, etc. Taught that selfish birth control was the reason why Europe is dying (not enough women having children, leads to not enough of a younger generation, etc). I'm not sure I believe that zero birth control is morally obligatory but I'm still having guilt over not wanting to be a mother. Those voices tell me that selfish people like me are why Europe is dying.

How does one let go of things like that?

You may change your mind about not wanting to be a mother. Right now your nerves are frazzled. I wouldn't be surprised if you had some PTSD going on there too from always thinking that the rapture was near. Why don't you go to a community college full time? If you apply for financial aid, you may even get some money left over for yourself. Or try to find a job. It doesn't have to be in your field of choice. You have to start somewhere. Fast food takes people with no experience. Do something so you can get out of the house. Being in the house too much isn't good. Get out and live a little. It's good for the mind.

[desertvixen]

But among the very worst reasons to bring children into the world is some perceived cultural issue on a different continent, IMO. It's news to me that "Europe is dying" so I don't know enough to discuss that, but I don't think it should matter at all in your childbearing decisions.

I agree with JFC, it's a slightly more sophisticated version of "the brown (Hispanic/Muslim seems to be the implied brown of choice at the moment) people are outbreeding us" argument - ie, white women (but only the RIGHT white women, naturally) need to have more babies.

It's also pretty irrelevant.

[theologygeek]

The job suggestion is one of many excellent ones. Could you get a seasonal retail job to quickly add to your savings? I worked part-time in high school and think it's a great way to learn to work in groups and deal with the public (as much as retail can stink, it's really great for that!)..

One of my high school jobs was a gift wrapper during the holiday season. It traumatized me for life. It made me hate wrapping gifts to this day. I wanted to strangle the manager with the bows that forced me to make. He did nothing but yell "Make more bows!" And he took my dollar tip that someone gave me. I'm sorry. I know I'm not helping. Your post reminded me of my trauma. lol

[Austin]

You may change your mind about not wanting to be a mother. Right now your nerves are frazzled. I wouldn't be surprised if you had some PTSD going on there too from always thinking that the rapture was near. Why don't you go to a community college full time? If you apply for financial aid, you may even get some money left over for yourself. Or try to find a job. It doesn't have to be in your field of choice. You have to start somewhere. Fast food takes people with no experience. Do something so you can get out of the house. Being in the house too much isn't good. Get out and live a little. It's good for the mind.

AD is old enough to fill out her FAFSA as a independent student and given that she has little income to speak of, would probably be eligible for full financial aid. There is no reason for her not to fill it out and she does not need her father's tax return. We've been encouraging her to do it for quite some time. Hopefully, now she will.

[FakePigtails]

One of my high school jobs was a gift wrapper during the holiday season. It traumatized me for life. It made me hate wrapping gifts to this day. I wanted to strangle the manager with the bows that forced me to make. He did nothing but yell "Make more bows!" And he took my dollar tip that someone gave me. I'm sorry. I know I'm not helping. Your post reminded me of my trauma. lol

No problem! I think any decent high school type of job should have times like that :D It's character-building! (Really though, learning to put up with crap like that is better done then than later when the stakes are higher). But oh man did it suck sometimes, haha!

AD - Beside the gift wrapping jobs, check out any and every retail store, as well as food places like Honeybaked Ham. I've heard they need tons of people this time of year and then again at Easter. If you manage to have a few options (rare these days, I know), think about which may offer employee discounts that would be useful to you.

[Ms A E]

Oooh, seasonal jobs are a really good idea! I know the economy is awful right now, but when I was in college seasonal jobs were pretty easy to obtain, no experience required. And if you can get scheduled for a decent number of hours, you'll have a nice chunk of change!

As far as concerns Braveheart, I must confess I liked it at the time. But you have to understand, I was a poor, media-starved child of isolated religiosity, and so I loved pretty much any movie because it was a movie. Now with the whole horrific Mel-Gibson-as-a-violent-bigot issue, I'd probably think the movie was shite, regardless! (I did have fundie-medium individuals in my circle who felt Braveheart was pornography. I would love to have that conversation again!)