Laws in a Mormon Country

[emmiedahl]

I spent Thanksgiving with some in-laws who are Mormon. We were talking about how many stores are open on Thanksgiving this year, and my husband was saying that he wishes there was some kind of law because the employees should be able to enjoy the holiday (I don't really agree, but anyway...). One of the Mormon relatives said that she wished there were a law that businesses be closed on Sunday for the same reason.

 

At the time, I did not think much of it. But later, it began to bother me. Why is she assuming that Sunday is *the* day? And why should everyone *have* to not work that day? The couple is very conservative, so I was a little surprised by the way they were advocating a government intrusion into private lives and business. This got me thinking: if the Mormons were in control, would we be allowed to drink alcohol? What about coffee or herbal tea? Could we wear tank tops? How deep would the tentacles reach into our private lives?

 

It occurred to me that someone I know and love very much thinks that their religion should be imposed upon me. I would never start an argument about it, but is this a typical Mormon belief? She knows I am Jewish, but I don't think she sees it as a legitimate religion, kwim? Like, from what she said, Sunday is her Sabbath and thus it is the Right Sabbath and thus I should be forced to take it as a day of rest. There have been other bits and pieces of conversation that support this impression as well.

[dawbs]

I think people also forget what it's like to be hourly.

I HATED things like 4th of july when I was an hourly employee at crappy temp/summer jobs...people would come in all day saying things like "isn't it great to have a day off tomorrow" and the response of "yeah, getting a day off, unpaid, so I can't make rent now, whee!" wasn't popular.

But what you're saying is one of the reasons I'm vehemently opposed to our local blue laws...the idea that we need to make sure people don't drink during church hours but the rest of the time they do is irksome.

[clarinetpower]

Most states have some relics of Blue Laws still on the books. Until 1991, there were no off-sale liquor sales in North Dakota (where I lived) on Sundays. After '91, it can be sold, but only after noon. Prior to '91, IIRC, no stores were allowed open either, but since the change they can now open at noon. I grew up in Fargo, and no sports or other games/practices/rehearsals were held Sundays or Wednesday nights for church confirmation classes for middle schoolers.

In France, where I used to live, very little is allowed open on Sundays either, but I don't know if it is related to the church or more to labor laws, so families can have a guaranteed day together. We were lucky where I lived and had a street market on Sunday and a local Asian market where we could buy TP if we forgot. We weren't used to forced non-shopping. ;-) Those days, people had lunch at the family's house, or went to museums, the movies, etc.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think a Mormon Country would allow alcohol at all!

There are a lot of things that I noticed that never bothered me before FJ, but now I am like lolPatriarchy. Like putting framed portraits of the dad next to each child's bed. But I hate to snark on family, and they are indeed a very happy, loving household that is very tolerant of non-Mormon relatives.

I guess it just bothered me because I realized that they don't see my religion as being equal to theirs.

[trebello]

To follow up on dawbs response -

Our college closes for an entire week over the Christmas/New Year's break. The whole campus (minus a few necessary employees, like police) shuts down. If an hourly employee doesn't have accrued time off to take, they basically have an unpaid break. The rest have an enforced use of their vacation time. You know, at the one time of year it is very expensive to travel.

I know several of our employees have a hard time of this. Some are very new, and haven't had time to earn the vacation time. Some have needed to use it for medical reasons. Etc.

These are our most underpaid employees. This also affects our students, as they are kicked out of the dorms. We have a lot of students who don't have places to go. We also close our dorms over shorter holidays, like this weekend.

[ADoyle90815]

Most states have some relics of Blue Laws still on the books. Until 1991, there were no off-sale liquor sales in North Dakota (where I lived) on Sundays. After '91, it can be sold, but only after noon. Prior to '91, IIRC, no stores were allowed open either, but since the change they can now open at noon. I grew up in Fargo, and no sports or other games/practices/rehearsals were held Sundays or Wednesday nights for church confirmation classes for middle schoolers.

In France, where I used to live, very little is allowed open on Sundays either, but I don't know if it is related to the church or more to labor laws, so families can have a guaranteed day together. We were lucky where I lived and had a street market on Sunday and a local Asian market where we could buy TP if we forgot. We weren't used to forced non-shopping. ;-) Those days, people had lunch at the family's house, or went to museums, the movies, etc.

It's not just states that have Blue Laws, there are even dry counties in some parts of the Bible Belt, yet the surrounding counties do allow alcohol sales, even if it's only from a state store. My aunt lives in one of those dry counties in Tennessee, but if she wants to, she just goes into the neighboring county to get alcohol.

In a way, Mormons have imposed their religious beliefs by getting things like California's Prop 8 passed, which bans gay marriages. Obviously, the Mormon church wasn't the only church that got gay marriages banned, but their church leaders ordered their congregations to participate in the Yes campaigns. There are Mormons who think that the repeal of Prohibition was a major mistake, even though it was a big failure.

[lilwriter85]

It's not just states that have Blue Laws, there are even dry counties in some parts of the Bible Belt, yet the surrounding counties do allow alcohol sales, even if it's only from a state store. My aunt lives in one of those dry counties in Tennessee, but if she wants to, she just goes into the neighboring county to get alcohol.

In a way, Mormons have imposed their religious beliefs by getting things like California's Prop 8 passed, which bans gay marriages. Obviously, the Mormon church wasn't the only church that got gay marriages banned, but their church leaders ordered their congregations to participate in the Yes campaigns. There are Mormons who think that the repeal of Prohibition was a major mistake, even though it was a big failure.

I had a college instructor who grew up in a Southern town that was in a dry county. I can't remember which state it was but he said most people in the town he lived in went to another county and often stocked up on alchol.

I know several people who have lived or live in Arizona, and they have told me about they have seen Mormons impose their beliefs on others and some of their beliefs and influence have effected businesses in some areas. One friend of mine had a Mormon co-worker who handed flyers at work about the propostion in Arizona that bans gay marriage.

[Jessica]

It's an individual thing. When I was at my most staunchly LDS I didn't believe that. I'm sure my dad DOES believe that. Meanwhile I have friends who think it's no big deal to go shopping or work on Sundays even though the church frowns on it unless it's abolutely necessary (such as shopping to get medicine or working as a doctor or policeman).

Next time they start saying that, ask them what their thoughts are on FREE AGENCY or the 11th Article of Faith. ;)

[O Latin]

It wouldn't be practical or possible to have everything closed on Sundays. Obviously, things like the hospital, police, fire department, etc. have to be open at all times, but I bet people (even Mormons) would also get pretty pissed if they couldn't run out to Walgreens to get toilet paper on Sunday. I do think it would be nice if employers would simply be considerate of employees with very devout religious beliefs that prohibit them from working on a certain day of the week.

I know (or at least I'm pretty sure) that there are no paid ministers, music directors, etc. in the Mormon church, it's all just members of the congregation who have been assigned to a particular task, but I wonder what they would think of someone like the music director at my church, who works from 7:30 to 12:00 every Sunday conducting choirs for the services and the rest of the day at rehearsals. He's working on Sunday, but his work is an integral part of the church services.

[Wolfie]

I don't think a Mormon Country would allow alcohol at all!

I'd seriously miss my coffee, tea and cherry coke too.

[Rachel333]

Mormons are very into the idea of free agency, but that doesn't mean that individual ones wouldn't like to make everyone else live the same way they do. I suppose the strict liquor laws in Utah show this.

[Effie]

Most states have some relics of Blue Laws still on the books. Until 1991, there were no off-sale liquor sales in North Dakota (where I lived) on Sundays. After '91, it can be sold, but only after noon. Prior to '91, IIRC, no stores were allowed open either, but since the change they can now open at noon.

You can't buy liquor anywhere in my country (Swe) on a Sunday. We only have state liquor shops selling alcohol here (Alcohol Retailing Monopoly). I think it's because the state somehow wants to limit our alcohol consumption, or maybe it's originally related to the church (I mean, why on a Sunday of all days...?).

[mirele]

Mormons are very into the idea of free agency, but that doesn't mean that individual ones wouldn't like to make everyone else live the same way they do. I suppose the strict liquor laws in Utah show this.

Oddly enough, I live in a heavily Mormon area of Arizona, and people here are much more laid back. I still remember the first time I walked into a grocery store here and saw aisles of beer, wine and spirits and a whole row of walk-in refrigerators for beer. Coming from Utah, where the beer was barely alcoholic and wine and spirits had to be purchased at the state store, this was something of a revelation. I think the locals have the pragmatic idea that if their neighbors are going to drink, we are by god going to make it easier to let them do that and reap the tax rewards of same. (But if you drink and drive, you will end up in Shurf Joe's jail, wearing his infamous pink underwear. So don't do that.)

That said, I do remember a friend of mine telling me that there was no way to get a caffeinated drink on the BYU campus. However, this friend also knew the location of every 7-11 in Utah and Salt Lake Counties and was quite the fan of the Big Gulp.

[pomology]

Oddly enough, I live in a heavily Mormon area of Arizona, and people here are much more laid back. I still remember the first time I walked into a grocery store here and saw aisles of beer, wine and spirits and a whole row of walk-in refrigerators for beer. Coming from Utah, where the beer was barely alcoholic and wine and spirits had to be purchased at the state store, this was something of a revelation. I think the locals have the pragmatic idea that if their neighbors are going to drink, we are by god going to make it easier to let them do that and reap the tax rewards of same. (But if you drink and drive, you will end up in Shurf Joe's jail, wearing his infamous pink underwear. So don't do that.)

That said, I do remember a friend of mine telling me that there was no way to get a caffeinated drink on the BYU campus. However, this friend also knew the location of every 7-11 in Utah and Salt Lake Counties and was quite the fan of the Big Gulp.

Meh, I'm from New Jersey, which is a liberal northeastern state and its religious folk are pretty Catholic overall (i.e. people with no problem with alcohol) and you have to buy wine/liquor in a liquor store here, too. So, I'm not sure these decisions are THAT influenced by the religious makeup of the area.

[gustava]

I'm old enough to have grown up with Blue Laws, where everything was pretty much closed on Sundays. I railed against such close-mindedness, cheering as the Blue Laws gradually faded.

Blue Laws closed commercial establishments on the Christian sabbath, and it was commerce that pushed for the abolition of such laws.

Today, especially after the insanity of the past 24 hours of stores opening before the dawn of Black Friday, I have some nostalgia for that one day of placid calmness in an otherwise hectic week. And I'm a heathen!

[FundiesInMyFamily]

We still had some blue laws here in Colorado until very recently - I think its only been 3 or 4 years that we could buy liquor on Sundays. We also had the similarly wierd car laws - until about 5 years ago you couldn't buy a car here on Sunday either. Never understood that one.

[Rosa]

Our liquor laws in Minnesota are ridiculous, and they vary not just state to state (you know when you hit the Wisconsin state line by the row of alcohol, porn, and fireworks establishments - sometimes all in one store.) but county to county and city to city. If I forget to buy alcohol for a party by the Friday deadline I can drive down one suburb and get it a little later.

[apple1]

Today, especially after the insanity of the past 24 hours of stores opening before the dawn of Black Friday, I have some nostalgia for that one day of placid calmness in an otherwise hectic week.

It seems that with every year, the number of businesses open on the Thanksgiving and Christmas Days increases. This is not a religious issue (if it ever was, that ceased long ago IMO). It does have the effect of taking away the last remaining days for lower-wage, few-benefits, employees in retail and restaurant to have to gather with family and friends on special days.

Those of us in health care never had these days, except on a shared/rotating basis, but... is it absolutely necessary to open up Walmart on Thanksgiving or Christmas Day? TGIF restaurant? Would it hurt us a a society to take it down a notch for one or 2 days a year?

[Kelya]

It seems that with every year, the number of businesses open on the Thanksgiving and Christmas Days increases. This is not a religious issue (if it ever was, that ceased long ago IMO). It does have the effect of taking away the last remaining days for lower-wage, few-benefits, employees in retail and restaurant to have to gather with family and friends on special days.

Those of us in health care never had these days, except on a shared/rotating basis, but... is it absolutely necessary to open up Walmart on Thanksgiving or Christmas Day? TGIF restaurant? Would it hurt us a a society to take it down a notch for one or 2 days a year?

Nope...but I propose they be on completely random days, or that we close down for everything from Eid to Diwali. My last place I worked we had a sign in every break room being like "remember: holidays are celebrated by everyone, at different times! be respectful!" and gave the dates of everything, including chinese new year...and employees added other holidays to the bottom of the list depending on their country of origin, religion, etc. I thought it was pretty cool.

[keeperrox]

Meh, I'm from New Jersey, which is a liberal northeastern state and its religious folk are pretty Catholic overall (i.e. people with no problem with alcohol) and you have to buy wine/liquor in a liquor store here, too. So, I'm not sure these decisions are THAT influenced by the religious makeup of the area.

Yet in South Jersey, you can buy liquor/wine in grocery stores (Wegman's that I know of, but probably others) and places like Sams Club. Go figure. At least North Jersey (I grew up in Morris County) isn't like Pennsylvania (where I live now) and makes you buy your liquor and wine from a state store. The prices my parents get at Bottle King, Shop Rite liquors, and A&P Liquors are SO much better than what I can get here. We're talking like a $5-$10 difference per bottle.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Nope...but I propose they be on completely random days, or that we close down for everything from Eid to Diwali. My last place I worked we had a sign in every break room being like "remember: holidays are celebrated by everyone, at different times! be respectful!" and gave the dates of everything, including chinese new year...and employees added other holidays to the bottom of the list depending on their country of origin, religion, etc. I thought it was pretty cool.

I agree they should be on random days, and everyone should be permitted to take off a certain number of holidays whenever they fall in their religion. I never celebrated Christmas, so I would have loved to have the opportunity to work on Christmas. It was soooo boring, and there was nothing to do because I wasn't celebrating a holiday. Same reason I like when things are open on Christmas. Not my holiday, and I have nothing to do. But at the same time, people should be allowed to take off Christmas if they want. Just, for example, the Walmart in my house is so heavily Jewish (both employees and shoppers) that it could remain open and not ruin everyone's Christmas. If I worked somewhere open on Christmas i would volunteer to work every year. That is where the wonderful tradition of chinese food and movies on Christmas came from though, nothing else was open.

I love the sign in your work place Kelya. I wish I worked there too! :D Because that's awesome

[lizzy]

Our liquor laws in Minnesota are ridiculous, and they vary not just state to state (you know when you hit the Wisconsin state line by the row of alcohol, porn, and fireworks establishments - sometimes all in one store.) but county to county and city to city. If I forget to buy alcohol for a party by the Friday deadline I can drive down one suburb and get it a little later.

The wierdest liquor laws I ever came across were in South Carolina.

-No liquor sold past 7pm and none on Sundays

-Liquor stores are all marked with red dots in shopping centers

-If you buy liquor in a restaurant, it is required that it be sold in a mini bottle. On that same line, mini-bottles cannot be sold in liquor stores

There is also a law that says that retail stores cannot open or sell non-food items on Sundays before 1:30pm. However, most of the larger cities are slowly repealing that restriction.

[JumpingtheSnark]

I'd seriously miss my coffee, tea and cherry coke too.

They can have my diet coke when they pry it from my cold, dead, jittery hand.

[saraelise]

There is no seperation of church and state in Denmark, so Sundays used to be closing-days (along with a whooooooole lot of holidays). Now, businesses can stay open a shorter amount of hours one or two Sundays a month. Most people disagree and I think the new government is going to amend the law, because it's completely ridiculous.

ETA: Most people are not religious to the extent that they go to church here, which is why people find the law ridiculous.

[Kitchen Princess]

It wouldn't be practical or possible to have everything closed on Sundays. Obviously, things like the hospital, police, fire department, etc. have to be open at all times, but I bet people (even Mormons) would also get pretty pissed if they couldn't run out to Walgreens to get toilet paper on Sunday. I do think it would be nice if employers would simply be considerate of employees with very devout religious beliefs that prohibit them from working on a certain day of the week.

I know (or at least I'm pretty sure) that there are no paid ministers, music directors, etc. in the Mormon church, it's all just members of the congregation who have been assigned to a particular task, but I wonder what they would think of someone like the music director at my church, who works from 7:30 to 12:00 every Sunday conducting choirs for the services and the rest of the day at rehearsals. He's working on Sunday, but his work is an integral part of the church services.

In my childhood in Arkansas, nothing retail was open on Sunday, at all. Of course the hospital was open and the fire departments were staffed, etc. But you couldn't buy a dang thing on Sunday. Then they were open in the afternoon on Sunday (lots of places are still open only 1-5 on Sunday), but Wal-Mart being open 24-7 has pretty much guaranteed that most chain retailers will be open whenever they are.

I live in a county now where there is absolutely no liquor stores, but I live just a couple of miles from one in the next state.