fundy men grossness

[vicka]

I live in brooklyn and although i rarely encounter the christian brand of fundiness, we do have plenty jewish fundies around here (and an increasing quantity of muslim ones too). Yesterday I was walking out of a store when a fundy man in black hat with pesas and his fundy wife were walking next to me. She was pushing a stroller and was visibly pregnant. she looked tired and miserable. and this "man" turned to me and gave me the nastiest, most obviously I'd like to f... you look EVER. He even opened his lips a little.

In my experience when most men walk with other women (especially their wives) they try to be at least discreet. but for some reason, the hasidic jewish men (not all of them of course) but a good minority of them make me feel like a naked hooker (and i am not). they are so OBVIOUS about it. i guess what, they don't think i deserve any respect like the women in their community do? Is it my responsibility to hide myself, and if i don't then does that make me an easy target? I have no problem walking by a gang of construction workers, or past a group of modern orthodox men. but its the ultra orthodox who (often) seem to be completely off their rockers when it comes to sense of propriety or discretion.

sorry about the rant, hope i don't get flamed for this. just pissing me off. I felt so bad for his wife, because she noticed it and of course didn't say anything. in fact she gave me a dirty look, like it was my fault. oh and i wasn't wearing anything crazy. flat boots, black leggins, a shortish skirt over that, a sweater and a leather jacket. but even if i was, i don't think it would excuse that kind of behavior.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I live in brooklyn and although i rarely encounter the christian brand of fundiness, we do have plenty jewish fundies around here (and an increasing quantity of muslim ones too). Yesterday I was walking out of a store when a fundy man in black hat with pesas and his fundy wife were walking next to me. She was pushing a stroller and was visibly pregnant. she looked tired and miserable. and this "man" turned to me and gave me the nastiest, most obviously I'd like to f... you look EVER. He even opened his lips a little.

In my experience when most men walk with other women (especially their wives) they try to be at least discreet. but for some reason, the hasidic jewish men (not all of them of course) but a good minority of them make me feel like a naked hooker (and i am not). they are so OBVIOUS about it. i guess what, they don't think i deserve any respect like the women in their community do? Is it my responsibility to hide myself, and if i don't then does that make me an easy target? I have no problem walking by a gang of construction workers, or past a group of modern orthodox men. but its the ultra orthodox who (often) seem to be completely off their rockers when it comes to sense of propriety or discretion.

sorry about the rant, hope i don't get flamed for this. just pissing me off. I felt so bad for his wife, because she noticed it and of course didn't say anything. in fact she gave me a dirty look, like it was my fault.

Heh, I got called slut by an orthodox man in line at the Chase on Havemeyer st in Williamsburg. Asshole.

[CanadianHippie]

It's not your responsibility to hide yourself or cover your self and you are not responsible for their their behaviour either.

[Spider Burps]

I spend a lot of time in NYC and I've never experienced that at all! Granted, I wear floor length skirts and long sleeved shirts and spend my time in Manhattan or Queens (Kew Gardens-ish--I often end up on the bus with oodles of Jews there, but usually just the yarmulke wearin' ones, only sometimes with peyos)... But still! Did you look him in the face or something? Maybe he thought you were checking out his countenance :lol:

[vicka]

I spend a lot of time in NYC and I've never experienced that at all! Granted, I wear floor length skirts and long sleeved shirts and spend my time in Manhattan or Queens (Kew Gardens-ish--I often end up on the bus with oodles of Jews there, but usually just the yarmulke wearin' ones, only sometimes with peyos)... But still! Did you look him in the face or something? Maybe he thought you were checking out his countenance :lol:

lol. the yarmulke wearing ones are modern orthodox. their wives wear knee length pencil skirts and cute tops, and are often quite stylish (especially those from the very well off sephardic community). i wasn't looking at him at all... and the countenance was NOT hot. ;)

[vicka]

Heh, I got called slut by an orthodox man in line at the Chase on Havemeyer st in Williamsburg. Asshole.

sorry :( what a jerk off.

[gustava]

I find it easier to read when capital letters are used. Thanks.

[terranova]

I often find the same with the Exclusive Bretheren men in my community. I can always tell when they're checking out my arse, or that of my co-workers. So much for modesty, I guess that only applies to their women.

[FlorenceHamilton]

To me, this thread dovetails into my thoughts about the thread about the 15 year old fundie kid who goes to public school and is experimenting with girls.

If children are abnormally sheltered from normalcy, how can they ever learn how to behave normally? If the development of sexuality is seen as a total taboo insted of a normal process, how do these people expect to learn how to handle sexual feelings and behave appropriately? If the only deterrant to inappropriate sexual behavior is a beating, what happens when the person is no longer a child and therefore not subject to beatings? If boys are taught that their desires are uncontrollable and they are presented with a stimulus that provokes desire, how can they learn to control themselves? If women are not taught to value themselves above sexual/reproductive objects, how can they enjoy their femininity and their own sexuality?

I simply do not understand why these people think that creating a huge denial system is the way to raise well adjusted, happy adults who are both comfortable with their sexuality and also comfortable with other people's sexuailty in a way that they can behave properly in any setting.

[CanadianHippie]

My time listening to many Fundies leads me to believe that the focus on women staying covered to protect the men, combined with staying out of the way of mainstream culture as much as possible has resulted in boys becoming men who have no idea they are even capable of controlling the impulse to look, let alone having no clue how to do it.

[AnnoDomini]

Normal? Why would the fundies care about raising normal kids? Mine certainly didn't.

[vicka]

To me, this thread dovetails into my thoughts about the thread about the 15 year old fundie kid who goes to public school and is experimenting with girls.

If children are abnormally sheltered from normalcy, how can they ever learn how to behave normally? If the development of sexuality is seen as a total taboo insted of a normal process, how do these people expect to learn how to handle sexual feelings and behave appropriately? If the only deterrant to inappropriate sexual behavior is a beating, what happens when the person is no longer a child and therefore not subject to beatings? If boys are taught that their desires are uncontrollable and they are presented with a stimulus that provokes desire, how can they learn to control themselves? If women are not taught to value themselves above sexual/reproductive objects, how can they enjoy their femininity and their own sexuality?

I simply do not understand why these people think that creating a huge denial system is the way to raise well adjusted, happy adults who are both comfortable with their sexuality and also comfortable with other people's sexuailty in a way that they can behave properly in any setting.

you said it so well. this kind of reaction is from a man in a totally insular community. he does not know how to behave around a woman he finds attractive because he simply has never been taught socially acceptable way to do so. the emphasis on total restriction of the sexes is what causes this problem. a few months ago there was a website for "frump cheating." on it the ultra orthodox found partners for out of marriage hanky panky. then the rabbis shut it down. if i was a woman in that community and found myself alone with this man, he might even be dangerous. who knows what kinds of abuses take place and are never reported.

[ChunkyBarbie]

I don't buy that he doesn't know how to behave. I would bet money that he would not have leered like that in front of his rebbe/rabbi. Forgive my ignorance regarding titles. He acted like he did because YOU count even less than his wife does. He clearly doesn't value her much. F-ing pig.

[Kitten]

Next time, wink. At his wife. That'll send him straight to his Torah. ;) :D

[Patsy]

Maybe he thought you were checking out his countenance :lol:

I think it's far more likely that he's just a piece of shit.

I don't buy that he doesn't know how to behave. I would bet money that he would not have leered like that in front of his rebbe/rabbi. Forgive my ignorance regarding titles. He acted like he did because YOU count even less than his wife does. He clearly doesn't value her much. F-ing pig.

QFT. You can't control yourself and you just get angry, but you never slap your wife in front of your drinking buddies? Yeah, I sure buy that.

[vicka]

I don't buy that he doesn't know how to behave. I would bet money that he would not have leered like that in front of his rebbe/rabbi. Forgive my ignorance regarding titles. He acted like he did because YOU count even less than his wife does. He clearly doesn't value her much. F-ing pig.

you might have a point.

[ChunkyBarbie]

you might have a point.

It has been known to happen. ;)

[FlorenceHamilton]

I agree that they know how to reign it in. The guy would not behave that way in front of the Rebbe or his mommy. However, that is likely because of memories of verbal or physical chastisment. The men are still basically not taught to process stimuli appropriately. Only fear-inducing stimuli can inhibit them.

I am not saying this is an excuse for piggish behavior. As a grown man, he certainly is accountable for his actions. His culture simply does not require it. Also, in the frum community, it is common for the wife to work outside the home/support the family. The man gets to spend his days studying Torah. Children are ususally cared for by older/younger or spinster females.

[bananacat]

It's a power play. These men are used to being way above women in their sphere. It disturbs them to see women who aren't meek and submissive, and who they can't boss around. So they use things like this to make you feel uncomfortable. It makes them feel in control to make you feel a certain way, and sexual context is definitely a dominance display. They want you to know that their view is the one that counts. They want you to feel like you're weird or out of place or that it's your fault.

It's also a way to keep their wives in line by assuring them that they are easily replaceable if they don't please their men well enough.

[ChunkyBarbie]

If you recognize that the behavior needs to be reigned in around your "authorities," you recognize the behavior is wrong. I agree with Bananacat, it is a power play to control women. He wouldn't have acted like that in front of Vicka's boyfriend/husband/father/brother because the behavior is wrong and there would be consequences.

[vicka]

If you recognize that the behavior needs to be reigned in around your "authorities," you recognize the behavior is wrong. I agree with Bananacat, it is a power play to control women. He wouldn't have acted like that in front of Vicka's boyfriend/husband/father/brother because the behavior is wrong and there would be consequences.

hell, i didn't even need the hubby. i kinda considered throwing a punch right there. but this was at kohl's and they frown on such behavior. it would've made an awesome headline though, considering my background. ;)

[clarinetpower]

If it happens again, try this.

Raise your arms and one leg, à la Ralph Macchio, and then do a high kick while shrieking "HAKUNAMATATA!!! IT'S A WONDERFUL PHRRRRRRRASE!!!" Then shake your head really fast back and forth, run up to his face with your eyes bugging out, and start cawing like a crow. Then, a few choruses of "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" while strutting around the area like a bantam rooster. I would then follow this with a dramatic reading from Erica Jong.

My love is too much--

it embarrasses you--

blood, poems, babies,

red needs that telephone

from foreign countries,

black needs that spatter

the pages

of your white papery heart.

You would rather have a girl

with simpler needs:

lunch, sex, undemanding

loving,

dinner, wine, bed,

the occasional blow-job

& needs that are never

red as gaping wounds

but cool & blue

as television screens

in tract houses.

Oh my love,

those simple girls

with simple needs

read my books too.

They tell me they feel

the same as I do.

They tell me I transcribe

the language of their hearts.

They tell me I translate

their mute, unspoken pain

into the white light

of language.

Oh love,

no love

is ever wholly undemanding.

It can pretend coolness

until the pain comes,

until the first baby comes,

howling her own infant need

into a universe

that never summoned her.

The love you seek

cannot be found

except in the white pages

of recipe books.

It is cooking you seek,

not love,

cooking with sex coming after,

cool sex

that speaks to the penis alone,

& not the howling chaos

of the heart.

That oughta do it.

[Renting with Raggles]

It's a power play. These men are used to being way above women in their sphere. It disturbs them to see women who aren't meek and submissive, and who they can't boss around. So they use things like this to make you feel uncomfortable. It makes them feel in control to make you feel a certain way, and sexual context is definitely a dominance display. They want you to know that their view is the one that counts. They want you to feel like you're weird or out of place or that it's your fault.

It's also a way to keep their wives in line by assuring them that they are easily replaceable if they don't please their men well enough.

I get this from fundie men from a variety of religions. Best defence is to laugh and call them out on the idiot affected facial expressions: "Catchin' flies there mate - might wanna close your mouth!"

[godlytomatosoup]

Ick. I don't know how I'd handle that. Maybe loudly singing Sleater Kinney at them? NOT FOR SAAAALE! NOT YOUR GIIIIRL! NOT YOUR THIIING!

[vicka]

If it happens again, try this.

... random craziness

That oughta do it.

lmao. i will print it out and put it in my purse for all future such occasions.