More on Women in Orthodox Judaism

[longskirts]

http://foryourhonor.wordpress.com/2011/ ... -citizens/

 

This blogger, who decided to become Orthodox, is challenging the idea that women have a lower status than men in Orthodoxy. She bases this on glowing eulogies for women who have died.

 

I was bothered by this sentence: "Now show that poster – which was undoubtedly produced by a man – to the most liberal, feminist, egalitarian person you can find, and ask whether women are second-class citizens in the Orthodox world."

 

If men and women really have equal standing, why is it impossible to imagine that a poster was made by a woman?

[GryffindorFTW]

ETA: Never mind, there are two blog admins; one is Jewish and one is Christian. :whistle:

[Soldier of the One]

Honorific titles and tributes of respect to women in traditional (and/or patriarchal, for lack of a better word) societies is not an indication of egalitarianism, equal standing or equal opportunity. All it means is that traditional societies have the capability of loving and cherishing their women, which I have no doubt they do.

That does not make it egalitarian though, as much as these women received 'honor' for fulfilling their 'traditional' (gendered) role.

[alba]

Honorific titles and tributes of respect to women in traditional (and/or patriarchal, for lack of a better word) societies is not an indication of egalitarianism, equal standing or equal opportunity. All it means is that traditional societies have the capability of loving and cherishing their women, which I have no doubt they do.

That does not make it egalitarian though, as much as these women received 'honor' for fulfilling their 'traditional' (gendered) role.

Yeah, the traits they attribute to women are the traditional demure, submissive female traits:

spent all her days doing kindness and good deeds [...] she met all trials and tribulations with a smile

It reminds me of a woman who was beatified in the Catholic church for refusing to have an abortion and dying in childbirth as a result. While I do think it's brave to do so, provided that you have made arrangements for the care of the child, her being beatified suggests, particularly to impressionable young Catholic women, that the Catholic church values women as childbearers.

[Soldier of the One]

The long-suffering woman who bears her burdens quietly is an old, old stereotype.

I understand the many reasons why Orthodox Jews are Orthodox. The great love and warmth of the tradition. The deep learning. The rich spirituality. But to me as an egalitarian Jew, that doesn't justify their non-egalitarianism. Putting women on a 'moral high ground' is not the same as treating them equally. On the contrary.

It sells women short. And it sells men short.

[longskirts]

I think it's possible to be Orthodox without going overboard like this. Some Orthodox Jews have non-egalitarian prayer services, but then men and women have basically normal lives the rest of the time. Some have coed schools with equal education, things like that.

It's the "women to the back of the bus" ones who scare me.

[Soldier of the One]

Longskirts, of course. There is a world of difference between mainstream Modern Orthodox Jews and ultra-isolationist Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Even within the Chareidi world, there are varying degrees. I have a Chareidi friend who has a career and who negotiates her marriage on quite equal footing. So it's not all stereotypical.

I also respect individual communities to make their own religious choices as long as it harms none (that, of course, is a far bigger discussion). But just because I respect people's autonomous choices and just because I can admire many aspects of the lifestyle does not mean that I cannot disagree with non-egalitarian religion on principle.

Ah. So I disagree with a bunch of people? I think I'll live :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Uggh...bad arguments irk me, even and esp. when I may otherwise agree with part of what someone is saying.

Why are the death notices a bad argument? Aside from being creepy, the fact is that they are cookie-cutter. The phrases that they are using are ones that ALWAYS get used. There is nothing unique about Orthodox Jews calling a woman a Woman of Valour. Nor is there anything unique about praising someone's deeds of loving kindness. Since these posters are produced on the fly, I'm fairly certain that they get used all the time, and suspect that it's just a matter of inserting the woman's name. It's sort of like reading "beloved mother" on a tombstone. You could be Mommie Dearest, but it would still be there.

These poster are indicative of a general respect, shown to both men and women in Orthodox society. Fanatical hoodlums aside, Orthodox society as a whole takes pains to use respectful language, esp. when referring to other members of that society. There is also an emphasis on performing kind deeds - indeed, this is a phrase taking straight from baby namings.

I'm more interested in accounts of a life lived that are personal. When my sister's MIL died, for example, she had everyone in the community, from super-religious to totally secular, singing her praises based on her work educating and advocating for kids with special needs. Seeing the spontaneous expressions of grief and respect for her actually helped me through a tough period, esp. since so many religious Jews were admiring her even though most knew that she was not personally Orthodox.

What's not as encouraging is praise based mostly on extolling a woman's modesty and fact that she never did anything to attract the least bit of attention. I can admire humility in anyone, male or female, but the trend in some more extreme circles to make a woman's willingness to pull a disappearing act in public her #1 virtue is troubling.

[Soldier of the One]

Uggh...bad arguments irk me, even and esp. when I may otherwise agree with part of what someone is saying.

Why are the death notices a bad argument? Aside from being creepy, the fact is that they are cookie-cutter. The phrases that they are using are ones that ALWAYS get used. There is nothing unique about Orthodox Jews calling a woman a Woman of Valour. Nor is there anything unique about praising someone's deeds of loving kindness. Since these posters are produced on the fly, I'm fairly certain that they get used all the time, and suspect that it's just a matter of inserting the woman's name. It's sort of like reading "beloved mother" on a tombstone. You could be Mommie Dearest, but it would still be there.

These poster are indicative of a general respect, shown to both men and women in Orthodox society. Fanatical hoodlums aside, Orthodox society as a whole takes pains to use respectful language, esp. when referring to other members of that society. There is also an emphasis on performing kind deeds - indeed, this is a phrase taking straight from baby namings.

I'm more interested in accounts of a life lived that are personal. When my sister's MIL died, for example, she had everyone in the community, from super-religious to totally secular, singing her praises based on her work educating and advocating for kids with special needs. Seeing the spontaneous expressions of grief and respect for her actually helped me through a tough period, esp. since so many religious Jews were admiring her even though most knew that she was not personally Orthodox.

What's not as encouraging is praise based mostly on extolling a woman's modesty and fact that she never did anything to attract the least bit of attention. I can admire humility in anyone, male or female, but the trend in some more extreme circles to make a woman's willingness to pull a disappearing act in public her #1 virtue is troubling.

This.

The concept of 'tnz'iut', modesty, often gets misinterpreted.

The main focus of modesty is primarily on character traits. As Micah 6:8 says, 'what does the Lord your God require of you? Only that you do justly, love mercy and walk modestly with your God'. (Quoting from the top of my head here, forgive any errors. We Jews are not great with citing 'chapter and verse' :))

[2xx1xy1JD]

Exactly.

I know men and women that I would consider modest, in a positive way. They never brag, never focus the conversation on themselves, never seek honors, but focus on others and do great things quietly. They also don't see themselves as better than others, and treat everyone with dignity. My old rabbi was like this - the shul was in an older part of town and some of the congregants were homeless, mentally ill, struggling with addiction, etc. To the rabbi, though, Pete the Homeless Guy was Reb Pesach HaKohen (title indicating that he was descended from the High Priest), and he would embrace him even when he hadn't showered in weeks.

What I don't like is the whole "kol k'vuda bas melech pnima" ("all of the honor of the king's daughter is within") movement, along with statements that modesty for women is equivalent to Torah study for men.

[lizzy]

Longskirts, of course. There is a world of difference between mainstream Modern Orthodox Jews and ultra-isolationist Ultra-Orthodox Jews. Even within the Chareidi world, there are varying degrees. I have a Chareidi friend who has a career and who negotiates her marriage on quite equal footing. So it's not all stereotypical.

I also respect individual communities to make their own religious choices as long as it harms none (that, of course, is a far bigger discussion). But just because I respect people's autonomous choices and just because I can admire many aspects of the lifestyle does not mean that I cannot disagree with non-egalitarian religion on principle.

Ah. So I disagree with a bunch of people? I think I'll live :)

Non-jew here. Can you explain the difference between Modern Orthodox, Orthodox, and Ultra-Orthodox? Also what is the difference between Charreidi and Chassidic?

Thanks.

[Soldier of the One]

Hi Lizzy,

OK, here goes:

There's a spectrum of theological and observance 'strictness' in the Jewish denominational world that runs more or less as follows: (yes, it's a bit of a stereotype but for the sake of argument...)

Least strict to strictest:

Secular - Reform - Conservative - Modern Orthodox - Yeshivish/Centrist Orthodox - Ultra Orthodox

Reform and Conservative are both gender egalitarian denominations and (mostly) open to same-sex marriages and other socially progressive values. Compare them to your friendly, neighborhood mainline Protestant congregation with a female pastor.

Reform is kinda like... Church of Christ, I suppose? Or perhaps the Unitarian Universalists in terms of their values?

Conservative is kinda like the more traditional Episcopalian Church where they do have women pastors but are liturgically and theologically a little more conservative.

So these are the non-Orthodox denominations.

As for Jewish Orthodoxy: this is also a big tent.

Modern Orthodox Judaism tries to integrate modern life with well, Orthodox Judaism :) Individuals strive to be as fully observant as they can be in terms of Shabbat and keeping kosher but will enjoy secular education, science and entertainment. Women do not share egalitarian ritual roles and cannot become rabbis but they often learn Torah/Talmud on the same level of men and have the same social standing as men in secular society. They might serve on the board of the community or even form women's prayer groups.

Centrist/Yeshivish Orthodoxy is more to the right. People will still enjoy higher education, but at Yeshivah University or such place, where Torah learning is integrated with secular learning. Women will fully cover their hair and adhere to all the modesty standards. Men and women may both work in the workforce but they will have religiously conservative rules. Women will not have the same opportunities as in the Modern Orthodox world.

Chareidi/Ultra Orthodoxy is the most 'extreme': they tend to shy away from the secular/modern world, eschew secular education at pretty much any level and have very conservative standards of dress and values. They will also grant their rabbis and community leaders a lot of authority. They are, for lack of a better world, Judaism's 'fundamentalists'.

Having said that, though - the comparison doesn't quite work. Even in the Chareidi world, women have more individual rights than in the VF/ATI world, as far as I can tell. That's because Judaism doesn't have an ideal of 'wifely submission'. Ultra Orthodoxy has an ideal of very gendered roles, sure ('separate but equal' - which is hotly debated, of course!) but husband and wife tend to be more or less egalitarian within the marital relationship, even if the rest of the structure is patriarchal.

As for Chareidi versus Chassidic: all horses are animals, not all animals are horses :) Chassidim are Chareidi because Chareidi is the generic term for Ultra Orthodoxy, non-Chassidic Ultra Orthodoxy included. But not all Chareidim are Chassidic.

They tend to be divided more or less in Yeshivish/Misnagdish and Chassidic. Yeshivish is more 'intellectual' and 'rational' - focused on extensive Talmud study in yeshivot, Talmud colleges. Chassidic tends to be more 'emotional' and 'ecstatic'. There's a whole culture and history to this, of course.

I must add that this tends to be the division among American Ashkenazi Jews (Jews of European descent). The divisions run differently among Sephardi (Southern European/North African) and Mizrachi (Middle Eastern) Jews. Just wanted to put that out there for the sake of representing the breadth of the Jewish people.

I hope my post was nuanced and didn't cause any offensive to Orthodox FJ'ians :)

Hope this helps! :)

[Soldier of the One]

Exactly.

I know men and women that I would consider modest, in a positive way. They never brag, never focus the conversation on themselves, never seek honors, but focus on others and do great things quietly. They also don't see themselves as better than others, and treat everyone with dignity. My old rabbi was like this - the shul was in an older part of town and some of the congregants were homeless, mentally ill, struggling with addiction, etc. To the rabbi, though, Pete the Homeless Guy was Reb Pesach HaKohen (title indicating that he was descended from the High Priest), and he would embrace him even when he hadn't showered in weeks.

What I don't like is the whole "kol k'vuda bas melech pnima" ("all of the honor of the king's daughter is within") movement, along with statements that modesty for women is equivalent to Torah study for men.

This. This. THIS!! :)

[lizzy]

Wow...that helped A LOT. I'm becoming a lot more familiar with the differences between Reform / Conservative / Orthodox as a result of FJ, but had no idea there were more nuances in Orthodoxy. Fascinating.

Just out of curiosity, do you know if these separations are just an American thing or do Orthodox Jews around the world separate themselves along these lines? What about in Israel?

Forgive the 20 questions, but I grew up in the middle of Kansas where there were not a whole lot of Jews around.

[Soldier of the One]

No probs, Lizzy.

These denominations hold up everywhere in the Ashkenazi world - the US, Europe, Latin America, Israel. But non-Orthodoxy is weaker in Europe and particularly weak in Israel. The Reform and Conservative movements of Judaism really are American 'powerhouses'.

Hope this helps!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Soldier did a pretty good overview.

Yes, there are more distinctions with the Ashkenazi Jews. Traditionally, the Sephardic/Mizrachi Jews (from North Africa, Middle East and Russian beyond the Urals, and anywhere other than Eastern Europe) just don't group themselves by ideology, although some may follow a particular rabbi or leader.

Yes, there is some variation in categories outside of the United States. Canada tends to be a step to the right, with less Reform and more Conservative and Orthodox. In Israel, Reform and Conservative are slowly growing, but they are still very much fringe groups which largely attract "Anglos". Instead, Israel can roughly be divided into secular, traditional, Zionist Modern Orthodox, non-Zionist ultra-Orthodox (Hasidic or non-Hasidic varieties, and each Hasidic group has its own customs). On top of that, you also have the spiritual seekers and the movements that cater to them. Chabad Lubavitch is Hasidic, but more oriented toward outreach than insularity. The same is true of Breslov, except that they are a bit more psychedelic and attract kids who would otherwise be druggies or in prison. You also get kids going to India after the army and getting into Eastern spirituality.

In terms of women:

Modern Orthodox: only limitations are in religious, ritual sphere. Girls may not count as part of the quorum needed for prayer and may sit separately, but you can bet they are being pushed into med school and law school. On the left-wing edge of the movement, there will be a push toward maximum inclusion and participation without actually violating religious law. Birth control is used fairly often, although larger families are still encouraged. Families with 4 kids are quite common.

Centrist Orthodox: Women will go to school and work. Schools are often separated by gender. In some cases, women may actually get better secular education, because boys spend more time on religious studies. For both genders, secular education may be seen as a necessary evil. Career training is accepted, but not just hanging out at a secular university doing liberal arts.

Yeshivish: In this circle, having men study Jewish texts is the highest goal. So, secular subjects for men are only the bare minimum, and men are often still studying when they marry. In relatively recent years, the trend has been for them to study for as long as possible after marriage, leaving the wife and/or her parents to support the family. These women certainly work, but may be limited by the fact that many also marry around 19 and don't go to secular universities. They have large families, but use childcare or work from home. This continues until they burn out.

Hasidic: Even fewer secular studies, and men may be educated mostly in Yiddish. Very few women go to university, but many have some sort of job skills (nursery teacher, office help). Families are very large, women may stay home with kids if husband is working, and if women work it may be in a setting where they don't have too much contact with men. In the strictest communities, men and women lead largely separate lives, with even religious lectures being men-only or women-only. Conformity is valued, sticking out in any way may be considered immodest, and women won't take on public roles. In a few communities, women do not drive. Birth control is not used without specific permission from the rabbi for health reasons, and families may be enormous. 10 or more kids is not uncommon.

[Soldier of the One]

2xx1xy1JD (hardest username to remember EVAR!) did a great job augmenting whatever it was that I wrote. Thanks for the extra detail, that's helpful. I wonder if we should just create a separate forum on FJ with 'resources' and 'articles' about frequently asked religions. That'd be awesome :)

As you can see, Orthodoxy is a varied landscape. Chabad is often frowned upon by other Chassidim and Modern Orthodoxy - especially, 'Open Orthodoxy', its left-leaning (in religious terms) wing - are distrusted by all the Orthodoxies further to the right.

We Jews are great at disagreeing :)

[emmiedahl]

We Jews are great at disagreeing :)

Yes, we are, hence the saying, "2 Jews, 3 opinions." I usually have 3 or 4 opinions myself on any given topic and argue them in my head occasionally. :lol:

[Soldier of the One]

It means you're a good Jew! :D

[LucySnowe]

Lizzy - Kochava (Crazy Jewish Convert) does a good job of explaining a variety of things. Heck, I'm a born Jew (raised conservative and kept kosher while growing up) and I'd never even heard of the meshuval wine thing!

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com

She can occasionally be snotty (some of us are once-a-year-Jews and we are happy about that; deal with it, sweetie) but if you want learn to why an intelligent modern woman who wasn't raised in this lifestyle thinks that it's ideal to dress modestly, sit separately from men during prayers, or not touch her husband until the day they are married (not 'not have sex with' but 'not touch AT ALL'), she's a good blogger to read.

[FaustianSlip]

Kochava is a really worthwhile read, though I do think she occasionally tends to conflate her own issues with non-Orthodox denominations of Judaism with why something is halachically not permitted or act as if a problem she had personally is indicative of How All Women Think, which obviously isn't always the case. I remember in particular one case in which she was talking about women wearing talleisim (prayer shawls), and she said something like, "I agree that women wearing tallitot is a terrible idea, because when I was Conservative and bought one, all I did during services was obsess over everyone else's tallit, because I wanted to have the prettiest one. Clearly, women tend to obsess too much about external things already, so introducing something like a tallit into the picture will just encourage that, since we'll all be competing with each other to look the best." The thing is, that really doesn't have a lot (I'm inclined to say "anything," but I hesitate to be so absolute because I'm not a halachic expert) with the reasons stated in halacha for women being barred from wearing tallitot, which revolve predominantly around the question of whether tallitot are beged ish, or clothes pertaining to men and whether it's acceptable for women to take on any time-bound, positive mitzvah, in which they are not obligated (the corollary of this issue is whether a woman who does decide to, say, wear a tallit or lay tefillin is doing so out of a desire to get closer to God and/or increase her observance or out of a desire to compete with others, namely men, or similarly impure reasons). The question of whether women are going to start obsessing over the relative attractiveness of their tallit is not, so far as I'm aware, typically brought up. That said, someone else took issue with this in the comments to her post, and she let the comment through.

Oh, also, on the subject of denominations of Orthodoxy, in the last fifteen years or so, the boundary Yeshivish and Hasidic movements has definitely started to blur some. For instance, while Lakewood Yeshiva has always been a Yeshivish powerhouse of learning, it's attracted more and more Hasidic students of late. Likewise, it's becoming increasingly common for even Hasidic men to try and stay in yeshiva learning as long as they possibly can. They may be learning Tanya or other Hasidic texts, as opposed to just Talmud, but it's a change from the way things used to be.

[LucySnowe]

Kochava is a really worthwhile read, though I do think she occasionally tends to conflate her own issues with non-Orthodox denominations of Judaism with why something is halachically not permitted or act as if a problem she had personally is indicative of How All Women Think, which obviously isn't always the case.

Yeah, I see what you mean. In a post on the laws of family purity she argues that 'You can't end an argument by distracting yourselves with make-up sex.' She may be citing couples who are married and following all these laws already - it's not entirely clear from context - rather than only deciding this from her own celibate perspective, but frankly, I find sex and physical contact to be an extremely powerful method of smacking me upside the head and saying, 'stop being so annoyed with your husband and just give him a hug'. And after sex all the barriers are down, so it's often a really good time to hash things out openly without being all bristly with each other. One of the major signs that my previous relationship had broken down irrevocably was that we were not having sex, and barely touching; having enforced times every month could easily mask something similar.

If she doesn't want to touch a guy till she's married, fine; more power to her. But the ability to communicate honestly, and the ability to screw your spouse's brains out at any point when you're both in the same room, aren't mutually exclusive; you can do both things without needing a period (as it were) of NOT touching.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I appreciate human insights into how odd ritual religious laws may actually affect our lives, but one of my pet peeves is making the assumption that these insights are THE reason for those laws.

Judaism actually has a term for ritual laws that make no rational sense: "chukim". There is no official religious reason other than "because the Lord of the Universe says so".

Of course, it's natural to still analyze and discuss things. I started to explore keeping kosher around the same time that my environmentalist friend was pushing me to be a vegetarian, so I thought about food philosophy. I've pondered the sexual politics and dynamics that go along with "no sex until your period has been over for a week and you dunk in water" laws. It's fascinating, but it's still not a definitive statement that this is THE reason. An Orthodox rabbi I know also hates the outreach-oriented rationalizations because it ignores the fact that these laws won't always be easy or fun or logical. Saying that the sex laws are all about improving a marriage ignores the fact that there are couples that is doesn't help, who suddenly find that their relationship improves during menopause.

[Kishiria]

It reminds me of a woman who was beatified in the Catholic church for refusing to have an abortion and dying in childbirth as a result. While I do think it's brave to do so, provided that you have made arrangements for the care of the child, her being beatified suggests, particularly to impressionable young Catholic women, that the Catholic church values women as childbearers.

Gianna Molla. At the risk of derailing the thread (and I can take this to its own topic if you--collective you--prefer) this canonization is a lot more complicated and in some ways worse than what's described.

The Church promotes St. Gianna this way: "This mother of five refused to have an abortion, and died a few days after her daughter was born. Isn't she brave? " Clearly a stick to beat women whose lives are endangered by pregnancy with.

Here, briefly, are the facts: Gianna was a physician who already had four children. While pregnant with her fifth, she was diagnosed with a cancerous uterine tumour. Given a choice between a hysterectomy or surgical removal of only the tumour, she chose the latter.

A few months later she had the baby by c-section, then developed a very common (even today) uterine infection and died. These days, with better antibiotics, she probably would have lived. Hardly the same story as what the Vatican wants us to think!

[2xx1xy1JD]

2xx1xy1JD (hardest username to remember EVAR!)

Just think "2 girls, 1 boy and a law degree"

I once used a screen name 4162905. Nobody outside of Toronto could remember it. It was code for "cool urban mom who suddenly became a suburban soccer/hockey mom".