Lutherans

[peep]

I'm coming out of lurkerdom to respond to this thread. I've been a Lutheran all my life (LCMS). You really do see a wide range of beliefs and practices in Lutheranism, not only because of the differences between synods but because individual congregations have a lot of autonomy. I know people in the LCMS who have a lot in common with the fundies discussed here- patriarchal, no birth control, homeschooling, women discouraged from going to college, working outside the home, and voting. They are not the norm, but they exist. The congregations I've been a part of haven't been that extreme. However, most of the Lutherans I know are pretty conservative.

[susanmr5]

I'm ELCA Lutheran and from a small town. Growing up I never got the impression that we were much different from Catholics, just had fewer church services and less strict rules about some things. Saints are mentioned but we don't talk about them like Catholics do. The thought of "praying to Mary" is enough to send some of the people in my church into hives. I always thought it was a little odd, but not that odd.

Our church tends to be on the more conservative side because of our location/political makeup of the community. We did have a female interm pastor for while who was nice. Once had a pastor that was "too Catholic" for our church. He crossed himself during the service, among other things. They also had a huge (by Lutheran standards) number of kids. Our family really liked him but a lot of people stopped attending church and went to the Missouri Synod in town because of it. There currently is another uproar over the ordaining of gay pastors at our church. Apparently some people are leaving again over it.

I find it pretty painless to go to mass with my Catholic husband. I don't usually take communion though, since I think Catholics have different rules/expectations than Lutherans. Although my husband always encourages me to it just doesn't feel right. Almost like I'm faking it or being disrespectful.

[NurseNell]

I'm ELCA Lutheran and from a small town. Growing up I never got the impression that we were much different from Catholics, just had fewer church services and less strict rules about some things. Saints are mentioned but we don't talk about them like Catholics do. The thought of "praying to Mary" is enough to send some of the people in my church into hives. I always thought it was a little odd, but not that odd.

Our church tends to be on the more conservative side because of our location/political makeup of the community. We did have a female interm pastor for while who was nice. Once had a pastor that was "too Catholic" for our church. He crossed himself during the service, among other things. They also had a huge (by Lutheran standards) number of kids. Our family really liked him but a lot of people stopped attending church and went to the Missouri Synod in town because of it. There currently is another uproar over the ordaining of gay pastors at our church. Apparently some people are leaving again over it.

I find it pretty painless to go to mass with my Catholic husband. I don't usually take communion though, since I think Catholics have different rules/expectations than Lutherans. Although my husband always encourages me to it just doesn't feel right. Almost like I'm faking it or being disrespectful.

If I were ever to leave the Catholic Church I'd go to an ELCA Lutheran Church. You are correct that according to Catholic teaching non-Catholics are not supposed to take communion. I know a few people who alternate going to Catholic and Lutheran services, and go to communion at each. When I go to a Lutheran service I don't. My cousin is an ELCA pastor.

There is a Lutheran church in northern WI, maybe Bruce or some other town along Hwy 8 that has a Saint Mary's Lutheran Church. It totally shocked me the first time I saw it.

[Witsec7]

Slightly OT, I have a 17 Lutheran cookbooks.

[ohmeohmy]

Ohmeohmy- I am sad to think that Lutherans have that kind of reputation, I think of us as being very welcoming. :oops: That said at our last congregation which was much more conservative there was a statement in the bulletin about how we had great respect for the sacrament of communion and if you were visiting to please speak with a pastor if you wished to receive. I can see how that could be taken offensively. Was something said to you or was there a general announcement in the bulletin?

There was both. The wife pulled me aside as we were entering the church and explained they believe there must be perfect unity among those taking Communion and of course if we weren't members then we couldn't be in unity, and of course we wouldn't want to lead an entire church into sin, so we should just remain seated when the usher comes to our row. The bulletin said something very similar to what you said, but since the pastor's wife talked to us on his behalf, I don't think they are very open to non-members taking Communion even if there was a private discussion beforehand.

Honestly, I really didn't know much about Lutherans before visiting their church and I'm glad to know they are only one part of the denomination.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Here's a topic I can warm to. I'm going to dish on as much as I can remember of my WELS upbringing. The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod is THE most conservative of the Lutheran churches.

1. It's misogynistic: Leadership and authority roles are limited to men. My personal experience with this is remembering waiting for an hour or more on voting issues. If there was a controversy, the women basically sat around and waited for the men to do the voting on whatever the issue was. We had a church board, but occasionally there were issues where all the male members were invited to vote. The minister that married us was more progressive, he would allow an open forum that included all members of the congregation to discuss the issue before the women were kicked out for the vote. Read for yourself how the WELS feels about women:

http://www.wels.net/about-wels/doctrina ... statements

2. On other religions: They are wrong, plain and simple. My confirmation class included several weeks of Q&A about other christian faiths. It was essentially a long essay by our pastor on why the WELS was right and everyone else was wrong. I was taught that Catholics were going to hell because they were idol worshipers, and this was in direct conflict with the First Commandment "Though shalt have no other gods". I had several hot debates with my public school friends on this issue. From the WELS website: "Significant differences between the Catholic Church and ours include: the papacy, the nature and role of Mary, invocation of the saints, the doctrine of purgatory, transubstantiation, use of the Apocrypha and tradition as sources of doctrine, and justification through a combination of faith in Christ and good works."

3. On homosexuality: "Can a person remain a practicing homosexual in defiance of God's Word and also be a believing member of the church? The answer is no. Believers agree that what God calls "sin" is sin. They turn from their sin, receive God's forgiveness, and battle against the sin in their lives with the help of God's Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10 are perhaps the key passages on this subject in Scripture. First, note that it includes homosexuality in a catalogue of other sins, with no indication that it is any worse (or any less bad) than greed, slander, or cheating someone. Then, speaking to Christians, Paul says, "That is what some of you were" (1 Corinthians 6:11). The past tense is significant."

4. I grew up attending a small, two room school in the early 80's that was run by our local WELS church. I suffered significant emotional and physical abuse at the hands of my teacher while in first grade. I would have had her for 3 more years, and my siblings had already endured her, although they were not singled out for her abuse the way I was. My mother insisted that I switch schools to the local public school, which was a MAJOR scandal in our church because of my father's standing the community. In 6th grade, I had to switch back because they wanted me to be confirmed and this was the easiest way for them to do this. I was miserable in this school. However, my father was needing to save face...so 3 years of misery for me. Then they decided to send me to the local WELS high school...and I had a miserable year. I spent the entire year begging my parents to be allowed to go back to the public school. This was the beginning of the end for me with the Lutheran Church, although I wasn't until I got married that I made the break official.

5. Martin Luther can do no wrong...I was taught that the evil Catholics added books to the bible, the Apocrypha when in fact, it was actually Luther who decided all on his own that these were not cannon and should be removed. Luther also had issues with the book of Revelations and wanted that to be removed as well. I find the WELS argument against the Apocrypha amusing: " Luther said they were beneficial books to read, but they could not be recognized as part of the inspired books of the Bible. Not all Catholics accepted them as part of the Bible until the church hierarchy declared them to be so and attached a curse on everyone who did not accept their ruling.

Protestants do not count the apocryphal books among inspired ones for two reasons: (1) Jesus did not accept them as canonical, and (2) they contain errors and anti-scriptural teachings (like praying for the dead). In fairness it should be said that false doctrines in Catholicism result more from tradition and misuse of canonical Scripture."

So somewhere, the WELS has a super special secret document from Jesus declaring the rest of the New Testament A-OKAY!

I think the WELS is a cult, and I'm glad I escaped. Fundie lite at best, they have no issues with women working, divorce in most situations, pants, short hair, makeup, etc. As a group, they are very hypocritical. They have issues with Catholics and Idol worship, but don't schedule a church event on a Packer Sunday in NE Wisconsin. Swear Monday through Saturday, drink as much as you want, but make sure your ass is in the pew on Sunday morning.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Slightly OT, I have a 17 Lutheran cookbooks.

As a whole, Lutherans can do a heck of a casserole. Our church potlucks typically had at least one version of a potato salad, lots of desert 'bars', ham, and jello. Jello was mandatory. In my church, it was typically a red jello with cut up bananas in it, and whipped cream on top.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

Ditto on the potlucks, cassaroles & jello. I was brought up in a pretty generic Lutheran church (ELCA I believe). Down the hall from the sanctuary is the coffee room, where old ladies pour coffee & tea from giant silver urns and pass out cookies after services. We also had a "fellowship hall" downstairs where there were potlucks galore. There was always a 'ham loaf' which although homemade, it so resembeled spam that I learned to stay away at an early age.

I love "Drop Dead Gorgeous" too, because my mom and all my aunts say "God Damnit" every other phrase too, although in Michigan we never had a 'Lutheran Sisterhood Gun Club".

[Witsec7]

As a whole, Lutherans can do a heck of a casserole. Our church potlucks typically had at least one version of a potato salad, lots of desert 'bars', ham, and jello. Jello was mandatory. In my church, it was typically a red jello with cut up bananas in it, and whipped cream on top.

This may be a bit heretical but I also think the Mormons have a way with potlucks. Not as good as the Lutherans. Heck of a fundraiser for a food pantry, a Mormon vs Lutheran casserole cook off :clap:

Omigoddess hamloaf, I actually make that for New Years day. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[mamajane09]

Wohoo Im a lutheran from the midwest :) lol...

[No KoolAid]

The view "it is completely symbolic" is associated with Calvinism.

I suppose I'm not 100% up-to-speed on Lutheran doctrine, and I've heard it varies from liberal to conservative, but the Lutherans I know are completely against anything that smacks of Calvinism. The Lutherans I met said they are against the Vision Forum/Rushdoonyist "Take back American and the World Politics for God" stance because of disagreeing with the 5-point concept of Calvinism. Did I meet a fringe element? Are Lutherans NOT Calvinists?

[emmiedahl]

This is kinda funny. The few times I went to the WELS church, you were not allowed to leave your pew until the usher excused you. He would start at the front, nod slightly at the people, who would get up and file out in a single file line. When they were gone, he would move to the next pew and repeat. You could not just get up and leave after church! You had to wait to be excused! It makes me lol to even think about it. The same thing happened at communion, except that the ushers would politely stop the 'nonbelievers' from going to the communion rail. Including people who were divorced, or otherwise being somewhat punished by the community.

[SunnyAndrsn]

I do have some good memories of growing up in the WELS. The Christmas Eve service was a personal favorite. The school children did a program every year that was the entire service. Still, there was segregation in that. Only the children who attended the Lutheran school were sitting facing the congregation, the rest of the kids who were only in Sunday school sat in the first few pews and had only a small part in the service. Still, it was a good memory. We always got a new dress, the church was so pretty, and it was an evening service. We always opened with the hymn "O Come Emmanuel".

The Easter service was also always a great service because it was so joyful. The robes that the minister wears changes throughout the church year, and Easter ushered in the white robes. Everyone was always so upbeat.

It was always strange to me as an adult, that such a cultish denomination could reconcile Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny traditions with all of the rigidity of the rest of the church.

[Rosa]

the regional synod names, btw, don't have anything to do with where the church is, really. A friend of mine from my hometown in Iowa grew up in the Missouri Synod church there; around Minneapolis there are ELCA, Wisconsin, & Missouri synods.

[Sweetpea1]

As a whole, Lutherans can do a heck of a casserole. Our church potlucks typically had at least one version of a potato salad, lots of desert 'bars', ham, and jello. Jello was mandatory. In my church, it was typically a red jello with cut up bananas in it, and whipped cream on top.

Don't forget the coffee. No good Lutheran church supper is complete without coffee.

[Not That Kind of Dr]

The few times I went to the WELS church, you were not allowed to leave your pew until the usher excused you. He would start at the front, nod slightly at the people, who would get up and file out in a single file line. When they were gone, he would move to the next pew and repeat. You could not just get up and leave after church! You had to wait to be excused!

Ha! I don't think that having an usher directing people after the service is just a WELS quirk since I grew up attending an ELCA church, and it was the same there. I remember the first time I attended a more contemporary and evangelical service with a friend from college and being shocked that at the end, everyone just stood up and wandered away. I thought, "You can't do that! You can't just sashay off of your own accord! You sit yourself down and wait to be dismissed like a civilized person!" Who knew I was so invested in how people exited a church service?

[Kdw]

There is great difference amongst congregations. For instance, my conservative congregation I attended has a school up to 6th grade and holds a yearly silent auction/dinner fundraiser. There is no drinking allowed there, so they held it at my more liberal congregation. :D Lutherans are also known for their schools and being very education minded-even for the girls ;)

[emmiedahl]

The Lutheran school that I went to had very, very rigorous academics for the most part, although it was mainly books and worksheets. I never learned long division and a lot of other math skills because they just kinda let it slide (the math teacher was of the opinion that typical girls just weren't very good at math). One teacher had a huge paddle hung above his desk that said "Board of Education" and kids were physically disciplined in a variety of ways. The teacher almost broke my hand because I was fidgety and would tap my fingers on the desk while doing worksheets. The classrooms were pretty straightforward and bare.

This is totally bringing back memories. omg, I was so bad at sports and the teacher used to ridicule me or make me be the support staff instead of playing. The girls in my grade were really mean to me and it was encouraged because I was not one of them. There was this huge incident in which I was accused of bringing porn to school because they found a magazine in another student's backpack and assumed it was the evil non-Lutheran. ugh, I was suicidal at age 11, how sad.

I know this stuff happens at non-Lutheran schools as well. It was just a really hard time.

[Kdw]

Emmiedahl- that sounds so terrible! I am sorry. The schools here that I know of are unbelievably kind, loving and accepting. I really think the difference is the synod or perhaps the congregation that made the teachers, etc so harsh. I remember when one of my sons was going through Catechism The paste explained that the Wisconsin synod wouldn't have anything to do with us as Missouri synod, so don't take it personally. :x

[emmiedahl]

I don't 100% blame them. Before we moved to this conservative area, I had been raised in Humboldt County, CA. I was a little liberal hippie girl who was kinda thrown into this ultra-conservative environment and of course everything I said or did was wrong. I also came from a divorced/remarried, mixed religion home, and the hippies had never bothered to point out how weird this was (cuz hippies don't do that shit). I suspect the school was as traumatized as I was. It was a terrible culture clash.

The Wisconsin Synod is hard core, though. I would definitely compare them to VF. It is refreshing to hear from other types of Lutherans, because I always assumed that the branches were mainly the same.

Someone asked earlier about Calvinism. I think there is at least a bit of this in WELS. In my experience, they definitely believed that there was a group of people who were assured salvation because they were born WELS Lutheran, and the other inhabitants of the earth were doomed. They also believed strongly that wealth=blessing. I don't know if they will come out and call it Calvinism, but if it quacks like a duck...

[SunnyAndrsn]

I don't 100% blame them. Before we moved to this conservative area, I had been raised in Humboldt County, CA. I was a little liberal hippie girl who was kinda thrown into this ultra-conservative environment and of course everything I said or did was wrong. I also came from a divorced/remarried, mixed religion home, and the hippies had never bothered to point out how weird this was (cuz hippies don't do that shit). I suspect the school was as traumatized as I was. It was a terrible culture clash.

The Wisconsin Synod is hard core, though. I would definitely compare them to VF. It is refreshing to hear from other types of Lutherans, because I always assumed that the branches were mainly the same.

Someone asked earlier about Calvinism. I think there is at least a bit of this in WELS. In my experience, they definitely believed that there was a group of people who were assured salvation because they were born WELS Lutheran, and the other inhabitants of the earth were doomed. They also believed strongly that wealth=blessing. I don't know if they will come out and call it Calvinism, but if it quacks like a duck...

The joke that went around about the WELS was that St. Peter is giving a tour of heaven and the tour approaches a room. Peter warns everyone to be quiet: "He's WELS Lutheran, he thinks he's the only one here."

Emmie, I had a very abusive teacher as well. I really was traumatized by her and had issues that had to be dealt with in therapy. A few years ago, she was back with her husband (she married our really, really, really nice pastor and no one could believe he married her) and my sister told me about the visit and how she admired my sister's children. I FREAKED out. I started yelling at my sister "You didn't let her touch your children did you!!!"

She was horrible--I stood in the corner for what seemed like hours, feet hurting, peed my pants because I was forced to stay in my seat all day, was ridiculed, called clumsy, stupid, had work held up for the rest of the class to laugh at...the list goes on and on. I hate her. She was evil and had no business being anywhere near children. This was all church supported.

My brother had another teacher that was dismissed for actual beating children, my brother included. My brother recalls being brought into the church and being told to bend over. The teacher prayed over his ass before he beat him.

I repeat: WELS is a cult.

[anniebgood]

The ELCA congregation I go to is elderly. I've been there for 44 years so I've grown up with the church and have seen lots of changes. We've had gay organists and choir directors, crazy pastors and sane ones, and we pulled together to build a slate labyrinth in the back of the sanctuary which helps us minister to the area. We're on the list of labyrinths that is published by Grace Cathedral. It's a magnificent piece of workmanship that shines in it's use. We also have a Japanese Language preschool that caters to the families, a good many non Christian, workers of Toyota and other Japanese based companies in the area. We share our sanctuary with a Korean congregation....and as a good Christian lady, I won't say anything else about them.

We always have a smorgasbord on the 1st Sunday of December. With the exception of one year when a member was killed the day of Thanksgiving, and everyone was in shock it's never been cancelled . This year, due to a complete needed remodel of the kitchen (which in our church is 2nd to the sanctuary) we're having it on the 17th.

My brother goes to a very conservative MoSynod church in MN. The one and only time I've gone to a service there they had a supply pastor who was elderly who said in his sermon that if anyone had ever had an abortion they should be shunned and told never to cross the door of his church again. My daughter was appalled, I sat there and thought, where is the love of Christ in this church?

And like Sunny said, don't schedule anything on Sunday nights when the football game is on, ignore the fact that the same cars that are parked in the church lot are parked at the local taverns during the week, and when someone drops a 90$ reel down the ice fishing hole those words that come out of their mouth aren't on the approved list on Sundays.

[Kdw]

I was looking for Drop Dead Gorgeous on Netflix and it looks like there is more than one version? Which one should I watch?

[alysee]

It h Kristie Alley, Kirsten Dunst, Amy adams. About a beauty pageant in Minnesota. It's my favorite comedy.

[Witsec7]

I was looking for Drop Dead Gorgeous on Netflix and it looks like there is more than one version? Which one should I watch?

The 1999 version with Ellen Barkin is on YouTube.