Oh Lauren (wearinghispurity)...You are so SMRT.

[Witsec7]

...

Because that's generally what it means, and what is implied by people who use it, even those who promote it. I didn't say irresponsible sex, just jumping from one relationship to another.

I just don't think that if someone doesn't spend 10 years experimenting before setting down, that it means that they're not a complete person or unfulfilled. Some are, some aren't. Youth doesn't necessarily mean that you don't know who you are or what you want, I guess is what I'm saying.

And by the Ms. Magazine reference, I didn't mean that people LITERALLY read it and emulated it, just the general lifestyle and priorities that are in line with their spiel.

Now that I've hopefully cleared that up, out.

So what, its their lives, you have this position that relationships or multiple relationships (some that may include sex) are wrong. Tell us how you really feel :lol:

And no the Ms thing is foreign to me. Post a link I'd like to read more about the 'lifestyle and priorities that are in line with their speil".

[Vex]

"Maranatha's countenance lit up with both excitement and astonishment"... why do they insist on calling a person's face thier countenance?

The story deeply saddens me. The 'game' that they played when it was time for Maranatha to 'wait' for him was not part of the bible, it was just an exercise in daddy's control. The whole thing made me angry and upset.

How can anyone think a relationship is 'of the lord' when it's technically rape? There's nothing Godly about men in their twenties being attracted to girls who aren't even teenagers, and there has been two generations of that in their family.

[Wolfie]

As for whether people married in their teens (to other teens or to older young adults) years ago, my family record begs to differ. My biological maternal grandmother was 16 (and my grandfather 24) when they married in the mid-1940's, though they didn't have children until the 50's. There are multiple records on both sides of my adoptive parents' records of marriages at 15, 16, 17, 18, and not only on my Irish side. Not everyone or even most married young, but it was certainly not uncommon.

Your family was an exception to the rule. The documentation says otherwise. Just because your ancestors married young, doesn't mean that it was common across all of society. (we've already mentioned a few areas where it was an exception anyway)

Also, the 1940's were slightly different. Because of WWII people were getting married younger than most of the rest of the century.

In any case, our issue is with the lack of choice for the girl, and the fact that she was basically handed to a MAN 12 years her senior before she was an adult. She had no choice in the matter.

[Witsec7]

"Maranatha's countenance lit up with both excitement and astonishment"... why do they insist on calling a person's face thier countenance?

The story deeply saddens me. The 'game' that they played when it was time for Maranatha to 'wait' for him was not part of the bible, it was just an exercise in daddy's control. The whole thing made me angry and upset.

How can anyone think a relationship is 'of the lord' when it's technically rape? There's nothing Godly about men in their twenties being attracted to girls who aren't even teenagers, and there has been two generations of that in their family.

And Laurens Father followed his FILs script.

[Vex]

And Laurens Father followed his FILs script.

I must have missed that. The poor babies don't stand a chance in this family. Hope is destined to be married off to 30-year-old when she's 15.

[NurseNell]

This discussion reminds me of the time when girls who wanted to be religious sisters went into the convent after 8th grade, and boys who wanted to be priests went to a seminary high school after 8th grade. This was common up to about 1965 or so. I wanted to be a sister, maybe even a nun (a nun is cloistered, most women called nuns are not nuns but are sisters, google if you really want to know the difference) but my parents wisely said no. If I still felt that way after high school and college then I was free to go. I didn't enter the convent, I joined the Navy instead. Some girls who entered after 8th grade went on to live their entire lives as sisters (or nuns) but just as many left, some after 4 years of convent high school, some later, some even after final vows. Same with the boys wanting to be priests. It's the same with teens this age marrying. Some will stay married, some won't. It is possible to grow and mature within the convent, seminary, or marriage. If you read through Lauren's blog I think she has shown growth and maturity over the last few years. I don't get the sense that she's making the best of a bad situation, it seems like she really does love her husband, her kids, and her life. More power to her. The courtship sounds strange to me, and the way the marriage happened even stranger but she seems happy so I'm not going to criticize her. Her father and grandfather seem downright weird to me and definitely very controlling , and I hope her husband is less so, only time will tell.

I do wish she hadn't named her daughter Living Hope, but with a sister named Kindle I guess it could be worse. It reminds me of 3 siblings I went to high school with. Their father was a Free Methodist minister, the girls were Faith, Hope, and Charity.

[O Latin]

Because that's generally what it means, and what is implied by people who use it, even those who promote it. I didn't say irresponsible sex, just jumping from one relationship to another.

I just don't think that if someone doesn't spend 10 years experimenting before setting down, that it means that they're not a complete person or unfulfilled. Some are, some aren't. Youth doesn't necessarily mean that you don't know who you are or what you want, I guess is what I'm saying.

And by the Ms. Magazine reference, I didn't mean that people LITERALLY read it and emulated it, just the general lifestyle and priorities that are in line with their spiel.

Now that I've hopefully cleared that up, out.

I sort of understand where you're coming from. I have people tell me all the time that I need to travel the world or go live in a different state for awhile of whatever. Not even that I should necessarily do these things before I get married (because I'm not getting married any time soon), but just that I should do them. I have no desire to do any of those things. I hate travel and I have known since I was 15 that I want to live in this city for the rest of my life. I am still growing and learning and having new experiences, but the folks who spent their whole lives wanting to get as far away from their hometowns as possible think I'm just horribly limiting myself.

I don't condone getting married at 15, but I do understand feeling "settled" at a young age.

[lovefromgirl]

Exactly. If they got married when she was 15, he must have been checking her out since she was at least 14. Look at her wedding pictures, she is a baby and has no worldly experience and should not have been married off so young. I have a 12 year old daughter and I would have any man arrested who so much as looked at her.13 year old boys are bad enough. She can date when she is 16+,but if she brought home a grown ass man in his 30's asking to marry her I would have him arrested no matter how mature she thought she was.

You can't go on looks alone, though. I'm pretty sure people would have got "child bride" vibes off me in a wedding dress at eighteen. Hell, I was cast as a ten-year-old boy when I was twenty-one! It doesn't help that she's styled very simply, in ways we now associate with youth: little makeup, if any, and long, unbound hair. She has one of those faces that will age well, but is a royal pain when you're under thirty. At twenty-five, the only reason not to card me is the careworn, pained look on my face, and when I'm happy... well, people assume eighteen at the oldest.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

um is marriage even legal at 15? in australia you have to be 18, or 17 with both parents consent (and i think you may have to go to court as well)

[uber frau]

According to Wikipedia, most states seem to have a minimum legal age of 18, or 16 with parental consent. In TX the minimum age is 14 with parental/judicial consent-I'm not sure how difficult it is to get consent. It's a big deal in Australia-they don't provide it very often.

[bea]

I am still fascinated by this idea that "finding yourself" implicitly involves lots of relationships, sex, and partying and that Ms. Magazine encourages this. My husband and I have been together for 20 years (since I was a teenager) and I indeed went through a time - college and graduate school - in figuring out who I was and what I wanted out of life. Miraculously, without having multiple relationships or going to many parties - but SO THE FUCK WHAT IF I HAD? I mean, seriously, why is having multiple relationships so WRONG? Unless you're one of the nutcases that believes love is finite and/or sex is finite and each relationship "takes away" from the next one.

No one here is claiming that a woman should or has to spend ten years hopping from relationship to relationship and having irresponsible sex and partying and reading Ms. Magazine. I checked the whoooole thread. Not a word about it - just that as a young teen, someone is probably not ready to be making lifelong commitments, especially when she's never been exposed to any views of life outside the ones her parents have provided for her in her extremely sheltered and cloistered existence.

Also, my dad was one of those people who attended a pre-seminary high school. And then seminary, then became a priest. He was a priest for 17 years, and then decided that actually, he didn't want to BE a priest. So he left - at 37, with no training in doing anything other than being a priest. Luckily, he's a pretty good administrator, so he found work, met my mom (who'd been a nun for 12 years, but she entered the convent out of college), got married, and had me, but the point I"m making is that if you're told young that THIS is the ONLY WAY to do things, you might end up doing things that way simply because you've never been presented with an alternative. AND that you might discover the alternative later on and (gasp) change your mind about what you want to be doing. This is easier if you haven't gotten married and had kids already.

My dad "just" required a dispensation from the Pope to change his mind about what he wanted to do with his life. He didn't have to worry about feeding kids, staying in a relationship where the power dynamic didn't fit anymore, staying in a lifestyle that he was beginning to question because of family pressure, etc. And it was hard enough for him to leave. I can't IMAGINE what some of these women go through, once they're exposed to the world outside the fundie walls.

[MerryHappy]

It looks like Maranatha had options but the truth is that her fate was decided for her when her father determined that it was God's will for her to marry this guy.

Yes, they told her that it was her choice but experience with fundies tells me that there really is no other option besides "yes" when your father hears from God on your behalf.

For her to have said no to the marriage arrangement would have been to place her outside of God/her fathers will. You see, she wasn't just saying no to the suitor, she would be implying that her father had misheard from God.

Patriarchal/fundie men do not take kindly to such things. It does wound their fragile egos so.

When I read this story, I do not see romance. I see a ridiculous power play between grown men as they haggle over the life of a child while claiming that voices told them to do so.

I can not applaud that as romantic.

(in regard to this link http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com ... 000151.php)

[fundiefan]

Age difference, who cares.

Being a stay at home wife and mother, who cares.

Not getting an advanced education, 'experiencing' life, dating, whatever - who cares, if it is your choice.

Being a teenager and having your parents choose your husband and future for you - wrong in too many ways to count.

She may want to be a submissive wife and mother. But, at 15-16, we all wanted something. Some, not all but they do exist, knew then in a way most don't - they chose a path early and made it happen. Overall though, a teenager doesn't have enough life experience to truly know what they want. If what I wanted at 16 turned out to be my life, I'd be the most miserable person alive right now. My sister was so wrapped up in her boyfriend then that if she had been making her own choices for her own future, she'd have married a troubled kid with a drug problem. Then, there is my niece who knew at roughly 14 what she wanted to do with her life and now, at 19, she is in school working towards that same goal.

Everyone is different. People mature at different rates, depending on the lives they live and who their influences are and what their experiences are.

It is still wrong for a father to choose a twenty-something husband for his teenage daughter choose her future for her. Even if she agrees, she's too young and inexperienced to know any different. Not necessarily brainwashing, but zero clue that there is any other option or any other way to live.

Yes, she may want nothing more than to be a wife and mother. But shouldn't that be her choice to make in her time?

[dormouse]

Slept in my teapot :animals-mouse: really late this morning, so I couldn't catch up with the whole thread.

All that talk about women marrying in their late 20's because they want to party and jump from one relationship to another made me a bit angry. I didn't lose my 20s partying. I settled down, or so I thought, at 18. The guy happened to be a violent douchenozzle and I couldn't leave because of financial considerations but also because he was very manipulative (suddenly becoming nice when he was getting a hint that I wanted to leave). It almost makes me wish my 20s had been lost to studying, traveling, partying and having one-night stands like fundies think women who settle late in life do.

I met my now-husband when I had just turned 26 and I was still in the battle with my ex for him to accept to sell our house and close our joint bank accounts. He waited for me. My husband is three years younger than me, which may not look like much but being in our 20's it meant he wasn't done with university yet. So by the time my house was sold, joint accounts closed, moving in our current apartment, getting married, and him getting his first real post-grad job, me finding my first non-minimum-wage and non-retail job, my "real life" is starting at almost 30. I know I may have more trouble getting pregnant, and that I'll be in my 40s and exhausted during the dreaded teenage crisis.

But what is better? Being a 'geriatric mom' (I hate that term), or having had kids at 18 with the Evil Ex and being forced to stay for the kids or financial considerations? Not saying religious because he wasn't and neither am I, but what about the fundies? If the husband turns out violent, there is no way out! Imagine if it took me 8 years to find the courage to talk to my dad, the liberal agnostic, about the abuse that was going on, do you think a fundie girl raised by fundie parents will talk? I don't think so. If she talks, her father will tell her that she just has to change and submit more.

I'm not saying all older man / younger woman relationships don't work. I have already mentioned my ex-fundie friend a few times on here. She's 33 and her husband is 52, and it works very well. They have taken on very traditional roles (he works like crazy, she stays home and does everything else) but it's what works for them, and now that all their kids are in school she is starting to work outside the home, cleaning houses and babysitting.

Another example is a cousin who had her two kids at 19 and 22. Her husband is her high-school sweetheart, neither of them had been with anyone else before. She got pregnant early in the relationship, but things worked out, they were right for each other. Even if she had to go to college while having young children, she succeeded, probably because her husband helped with the house and kids, and now at 29 she has a career, an almost paid-for house, and is shopping for a middle-school and braces for her oldest daughter. It worked out for her because the first guy she settled was treating her right. Recently, a b***y great-aunt told me "(Cousin) had the maturity to settle and have children early. You clearly didn't." Oh, so because the guy I settled with when I was 18 and naive happened to be a sociopath, I am the immature one? Because I didn't want to bring a child into this mess? A boy that would have looked like him? A girl he might have abused too? *I* am the immature one? If I had married young with someone nice, I could have the same life as my cousin does now. Maybe she didn't know what I had been through and judged me by my appearance, thinking I spent my 20s partying.

By the way, my husband is a bit younger than I am but people actually think he's older. He works in a bank so he has a very proper haircut, wears a suit-and-tie every day during the week, recently needed glasses, and right now he rocks the 'stache for Movember. While I still consider myself 'goth', wear braces, and have no real strict dress-code at work. So when we are out in public, he actually look like a pervy late-20s businessman going out with a 17-year-old gothic teen.

[Rosa]

I sort of understand where you're coming from. I have people tell me all the time that I need to travel the world or go live in a different state for awhile of whatever. Not even that I should necessarily do these things before I get married (because I'm not getting married any time soon), but just that I should do them. I have no desire to do any of those things. I hate travel and I have known since I was 15 that I want to live in this city for the rest of my life. I am still growing and learning and having new experiences, but the folks who spent their whole lives wanting to get as far away from their hometowns as possible think I'm just horribly limiting myself.

I don't condone getting married at 15, but I do understand feeling "settled" at a young age.

There is a difference between having a baby (and getting married, if you're one of these "divorce is worse than death" folks): you want to live in one place for the rest of your life. But if you change your mind at 26 or 30 or 80, you can just pick up and leave. The city will be fine without you, you've got no legal ties there.

If you have a baby, you're a mother. Forever. You're a coparent with the creeper who likes young teen girls. Forever. It's not something you just change your mind about, it's a big serious permanent life choice.

[LilMissMetaphor]

She's clearly well read

No.

[fundiefan]

There is a difference between having a baby (and getting married, if you're one of these "divorce is worse than death" folks): you want to live in one place for the rest of your life. But if you change your mind at 26 or 30 or 80, you can just pick up and leave. The city will be fine without you, you've got no legal ties there.

If you have a baby, you're a mother. Forever. You're a coparent with the creeper who likes young teen girls. Forever. It's not something you just change your mind about, it's a big serious permanent life choice.

I think that is the motive with the patriarchy, marry your daughter off young thing. By the time they are old enough to have any sense of themselves as individuals and any preference of their own, it's too late. If you're married off young and a mother a year later, you are stuck. There is no option of you making your own choices, because you have kids to take care of and think about, no skills, and no support system.

[Shirley MacLaine]

No.

Hah!

[jenny_islander]

I have to applaud Lauren for one thing: Her prescribed response when the baby cries out for the fifth time that night is to cuddle the baby. How many fundamentalist parents would start talking about sin nature at this point? At least she isn't doing that.

I fear that Lauren's hard times are going to come when she no longer looks like a teenager. I'm relieved that apparently her husband isn't the sort of ephebophile who loses interest in his teenage wife as soon as she acquires a mother's breasts and belly. When she begins to show laugh lines--that will be the next test of her husband's character. Maybe he did genuinely fall in love with her. Maybe he wanted to get her away from her creepy family as a child and realized that he loved her when she was (admittedly barely) marriageable age. Or maybe he has a couple of suggestible young girls on the side, or will have when Lauren is too old for his tastes. For her sake I hope not.

Hey Lauren, if you're reading here: There is an alternative to forcing yourself to pretty up the house and put on a smile for your husband when you're tired. It's called turning to your husband and saying, "Honey, I'm exhausted. I'm going to take a long hot bath. Dinner's in the crockpot." See, the thing about egalitarian marriage is, neither partner has to put on a show for the other. We are people, not roles.

[Witsec1]

Why does someone have to be brainwashed to want to be a wife and mother and want to get married?

I don't usually like to openly challenge anyone here unless they're trolling, but it seems like there's a tendency here to think the ONLY right or acceptable way of life is to be a career woman, and MAYBE marry in the late-20's or 30's and have a kid on the side if there's time/desire. The underestimation and outright hostility to different orders or priorities in life and passing anyone off as stupid/incapable who doesn't do things "the right" way is just as bad as the fundies.

From my experience with teenagers working with them outside a classroom setting, most are only as incapable and immature as they're shaped to be. Take from that what you will.

15 is young, sure. But she seems to be happy, functional. Just paging through her blog, she has interests and friendships and isn't cut off from the world as much as a lot of fundies are. She seems to genuinely love her husband and her children and is doing the best she can. How is that bad?

As for whether people married in their teens (to other teens or to older young adults) years ago, my family record begs to differ. My biological maternal grandmother was 16 (and my grandfather 24) when they married in the mid-1940's, though they didn't have children until the 50's. There are multiple records on both sides of my adoptive parents' records of marriages at 15, 16, 17, 18, and not only on my Irish side. Not everyone or even most married young, but it was certainly not uncommon.

Call me old-fashioned, call me a radical feminist who cannot tolerate any lifestyle outside the ones in the Ms. Magazine Directory of Officially approved Lifestyles , or call me a normal concerned mother - I am going to be worried and concerned if my 15 year old wants to marry a 27 year old. Doubly concerned if that 27 year old expects complete financial dependence and obedience in a wife.

[bea]

Call me old-fashioned, call me a radical feminist who cannot tolerate any lifestyle outside the ones in the Ms. Magazine Directory of Officially approved Lifestyles , or call me a normal concerned mother - I am going to be worried and concerned if my 15 year old wants to marry a 27 year old. Doubly concerned if that 27 year old expects complete financial dependence and obedience in a wife.

Word.

[dairyfreelife]

I sort of understand where you're coming from. I have people tell me all the time that I need to travel the world or go live in a different state for awhile of whatever. Not even that I should necessarily do these things before I get married (because I'm not getting married any time soon), but just that I should do them. I have no desire to do any of those things. I hate travel and I have known since I was 15 that I want to live in this city for the rest of my life. I am still growing and learning and having new experiences, but the folks who spent their whole lives wanting to get as far away from their hometowns as possible think I'm just horribly limiting myself.

I don't condone getting married at 15, but I do understand feeling "settled" at a young age.

I also sort of understand what Lily is trying to say. I'm almost 23 and I get this a lot. I work two jobs and go to school full time, so I really don't have much of a life outside of that and I'm mostly okay with that right now. I've never had a relationship before and I was mostly okay with that too, figuring it might happen eventually. So many people have told me that I need to get boyfriends and experiment a little. Honestly, at my age and knowing that I have a faulty reproductive system, I have a feeling that the first guy I fall in love with will likely be the one I stay with. I don't see myself "shopping around." But some people do think it is weird to not have already had relationships. Many have actually asked what was wrong with me? It does seem that despite people who've happily done the contrary, others think you need several relationships to find yourself. Even my parents tell me this.

Lots of people have told me that I need to get out more, I need to travel the world, go on spring break, go party, etc. I don't drink and grew up around alcoholics so I have no desire to spend time around drunk people. I hate being up and the thought of flying terrifies me, so good luck getting me in an airplane to travel the world, not to mention that I get motion sick easily. ;) Spring breaks for me are never breaks. I always have a lot of work to do. Also, it's too expensive so I never understood how college students afford a vacation like that. Must have wealthy parents. :?

This girl though, she bothers me because I feel it was an arranged marriage to a teen bride and well, it's almost creepy because it reeks of the same vibe as Warren Jeffs, who married and married off 13 and 14yo girls. Today, in this country, teen brides are not common and shouldn't be because we believe children should get an education first before marriage. I'm glad that unlike like 100 years ago when my great grandmother married at 16, girls can get a real education. My great grandmother did not get the chance and she did not encourage her three daughters to get married as young. They were all high school grads who married after that. She could hardly spell and was barely literate at all. Her family was dirt poor, literally, had too many children and not all made it to adulthood. That's how life was then and when many of our extremist bloggers talk about how great life was, I cringe because I think of my great grandmother and even my grandfather's family growing up. Despite her happiness, this girl does not likely have a full education. By that, I mean completion of high school education. She can never have even a little independence. That's what is sad. Not marrying young. I value education a lot and hate seeing it neglected for insane ideas of the past and the crazy ideals of patriachy and the devaluing of a women's abilities.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I've been in a few relationships and I've never thought of myself as 'shopping around.' I dunno, the one truly serious relationship I've been in before my current one didn't end because either of us felt the need to see what else is out there, it ended because our lives were going in different directions. Other than that, yeah, I've had a few casual sex-based relationships and that was just... what I wanted to be doing at the time, nothing more. I would never suggest someone do that if they didn't want to, it is absolutely not necessary for some people. But I'm perfectly happy to just be in a relationship and chill when the dude is the right dude, you know?

Addendum: I've also spend a lot of my youth drinking, traveling and partying. That's for no other reason than... I like to do those things. I don't think it's something that can be prescribed like medicine, like, oh you're young YOU MUST BE DOING THIS ALSO! It's just a difference of interest.

[Guest Anonymous]

this is just wrong! Sorry if they are so in love why not wait until she is 18? I know couples IRL who met in high school fell in love but still waited until they got married. And secondly very few 15 year olds are not in love with someone, I am so thankful I did not marry the guys I dated at 15. And i was so sure we would get married about a million kids and live happily ever after.lol This is truly sick sick sick, 27 with a 15 year old I don't care if she is the smartest most mature girl in the world, 15 is still a child, and he is a grown man and it is wrong! And I love being a SAHM I do, but I am so thankful I had some me time before I had to start, and I was married and having kids at 19. As for the in past times crap ya and you died at 30, it was ok to beat your wife, you died in childbirth, many couldn't read and your kids worked in sweatshops, yep lets go back to that come on it sounds dreamy.:) Plus you where married off to help your family get ahead. My husbands Great Grandmother was married at 14 to a 49 year old wealthy man who then paid to have the rest of her family brought over to America she had 14 kids, but I doubt it was a match made in heaven. It was a sacrifice she made for her family, she made it work. But looking back, I always think WOW that poor girl.

[atheistjd]

Ah, yes, the straw man (straw woman?) of the raging feminists running around forcing young girls into one night stands and post-graduate education in foreign countries against their wills... that one's by FAR my favorite anti-feminist trope :roll:

I happen to be a raging feminist. I also happen to have had sex with one person, who is now my husband, and who I have been with since I was 16. I also knew I wanted to live in the same place I was born (and except for a short stint abroad and travels, I have). I've never had a one-night stand, an abortion, partied excessively, etc., although there is NOTHING wrong with any of the aforementioned activities - everyone has different ways of finding themselves, so unlike patriarchal cultures, feminists don't enforce one life plan or lifestyle on anyone simply because of their genitalia. I am sorry for those of you who feel pressure to be something you are not - I feel the pressure of society to be 30 pounds lighter and drive a nicer car, but I don't blame that on Ms. Magazine or feminism, but on a flawed and judgmental society (hint: someone will ALWAYS judge your choices - especially if you are a woman and especially regarding your reproductive and child-rearing choices).

Don't blame feminism if you feel bad about yourself or feel pressure to be something you are not. Get thicker skin and works towards making a world where you can make your decisions and others can make theirs.