God versus Satan

[Soldier of the One]

Another aspect of conservative/fundamentalist Christian theology that eludes me:

The role of Satan.

As a staunch monotheist, I believe in One God, and that's it. I don't 'do' angelology or demonology. So I have a particularly hard time wrapping my head around the importance that certain sects of Christianity ascribe to Satan. If you accord Satan such influence, isn't that strictly idolatry? And how does Satan tie in with God's alleged omniscience, omnipotence and benevolence?

Please enlighten me :)

[Effie]

Hehe when I saw the subject title, I thought this would be a debate about God versus Satan...

Then I would choose Satan. There I said it. Why? Satan only killed 10 people, while God uhm killed 2.3 million?

[Soldier of the One]

Sorry, Effie to disappoint you ;)

Is your spoiler a pop culture reference?

[browngrl]

I have no close fundie friends/or personal fundie experience so all my data is based on books,tv, magazines and blogs. Despite all the time I spend lurking around the fundie world - I have no real idea of what motivates them. I just have theories.

One theory I have is : fear is their motivating force. Fear of death, fear of being wrong,fear of losing control etc. The fundie version of Satan strikes me as metaphor for all the other more nebulous things they fear.

I also think that having Satan gives fundies someone to blame. You can't blame God for all the bad things that can and do happen to people. You can't even find a good side or teaching point to some of the trials people go through. So what is left. They need Satan to explain all the bad shit.

edited because I find that my typing skills deteriorate badly when my cat is also trying to fit on my lap with with laptop.

[Soldier of the One]

I have no close fundie friends/or personal fundie experience so all my data is based on books,tv, magazines and blogs. Despite all the time I spend lurking around the fundie world - I have no real idea of what motivates them. I just have theories.

One theory I have is : fear is their motivating force. Fear of death, fear of being wrong,fear of losing control etc. The fundie version of Satan strikes me as metaphor for all the other more nebulous things they fear.

I also think that having Satan gives fundies someone to blame. You can't blame God for all the bad things that can and do happen to people. You can't even find a good side or teaching point to some of the trials people go through. So what is left. They need Satan to explain all the bad shit.

edited because I find that my typing skills deteriorate badly when my cat is also trying to fit on my lap with with laptop.

Good point. So basically, it comes down to normal human psychology and bad theology.

What does fundamentalist Christianity make of the verse in Isaiah that goes: 'He [God] is the Former of Light, the Creator of Darkness, the Maker of peace and the Creator of evil'?

[bionicmlle]

Interesting because when I saw the topic I thought it was regarding Mama D's latest post here: imghanaadopt.blogspot.com/2011/11/put-on-armor-of-god.html

It brought back a lot of memories from my youth of adults reacting to everything "negative" as Satan's work -- an attitude like "The devil is really working hard to get at us!" Huh? Perhaps your kids are making crappy choices and need to be held accountable.

[Soldier of the One]

Interesting because when I saw the topic I thought it was regarding Mama D's latest post here: imghanaadopt.blogspot.com/2011/11/put-on-armor-of-god.html

It brought back a lot of memories from my youth of adults reacting to everything "negative" as Satan's work -- an attitude like "The devil is really working hard to get at us!" Huh? Perhaps your kids are making crappy choices and need to be held accountable.

Well, yes. Satan does, to a degree, negate freedom of choice and free will. One of the many reasons why I find that theology so flawed.

[dawbs]

I find a lot of the thoughts about Satan come straight from Job (when it's assumed to be literal, not poetry).

So *God* didn't cause the shit-tastic luck that Job had--God just let it happen, Satan pulled the trigger (somehow, this makes *God* innocent and Satan guilty). The theology, from my days in fundy-world, always seemed based on the idea that here in a 'fallen world' Satan has dominion over the physical--God can stop it if he really wants to, but usually doesn't so Satan can cause my car to break, cause death, cause destruction...

I've never been able to understand how that lines up with an all-powerful God. (especially when you throw in that verse from James 4:17 [i'm to lazy to look it up right now, so I"m proably mushing versions] that 'he who sees the good he ought to do and doesn'tn do it sins'. That would make God a sinner millions of times over)

[emmiedahl]

I am in a weird position on this. I don't believe in Satan, not the Christian version at least (big surprise, being a Jew, right?). I do believe that there are evil forces, though. I have had some experiences that make me very attached to this belief; in addition, I know someone who was in on a few exorcisms and I trust their testimony. I guess I just don't see any evil entity as being as powerful as God, or even approaching it. The human existence is so flawed that we could focus more on starvation and less on what evil spirits might be out to get us. A possessed person is ONE person, but an entire country of starving children (when our planet is producing enough food to feed everyone) is where the real evil lies.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Well, yes. Satan does, to a degree, negate freedom of choice and free will. One of the many reasons why I find that theology so flawed.

Forgive me my view on Satan--some of it is what I've learned in church, and mostly it's what I've read in books and the tiny snippets of theology that I can take in at a time. I remember that i had a hard time trying to grasp just how much power Satan has, and believed in nearly a dualistic type of understanding (I forget what the name of the religion is, but there was some sort of Eastern religion that did believe in a dualistic nature...?) It wasn't until I went to college that I realized the dualistic nature of putting Satan nearly on the same level as God was a mistaken belief. It might have been a book by Pope Benedict XVI, or some other theological book I read.

So, now when people go on about "OMG SATAN IS TEMPTING US!" I have to remember that Satan is a weakling. A fallen angel, he is no where near the level of God. He also doesn't have THAT much power over people. Not to say that I don't think he exists, but he merely has his discord-creating talents and minions, and pretends he has power.

He does a good job of convincing people, too--he's convinced fundamentalists that he's so powerful that they need to fear him that much. Kind of like the whole Jehovah's Witness story I posted a while back, about hearts being "tempting" toward sin. Is their faith so weak that they fear any sort of temptation?

We don't want to stray into pridefulness about our salvation 'cause that isn't good either. Seriously though--some of these people act as if their hold on God is a hair-thin thread. They say "Oh, we're so saved! God is so amazing! He has all my heart!!11!" but then they act as if the slightest thing will break that thread. "Oh no, I showed 1 cm of my cleavage! I just turned men into uncontrollable horndogs! I'm so evil!"

I can't quite comprehend the fundie take on Satan/salvation/faith. It's such a contradiction.

[Soldier of the One]

I find a lot of the thoughts about Satan come straight from Job (when it's assumed to be literal, not poetry).

So *God* didn't cause the shit-tastic luck that Job had--God just let it happen, Satan pulled the trigger (somehow, this makes *God* innocent and Satan guilty). The theology, from my days in fundy-world, always seemed based on the idea that here in a 'fallen world' Satan has dominion over the physical--God can stop it if he really wants to, but usually doesn't so Satan can cause my car to break, cause death, cause destruction...

I've never been able to understand how that lines up with an all-powerful God. (especially when you throw in that verse from James 4:17 [i'm to lazy to look it up right now, so I"m proably mushing versions] that 'he who sees the good he ought to do and doesn'tn do it sins'. That would make God a sinner millions of times over)

Interesting. But actually it is God who causes the 'shit-tastic' luck to poor Job; Satan just challenged Him as being the Adversary.

The Book of Job is one of the most difficult and complex in the Biblical canon and it is a testimony to the courage of the Biblical editors to include it because it is a veiled admittance on feeling disempowered in the face of evil and suffering.

Satan as an actor in the physical world - that almost sounds like a Gnostic heresy, as if Satan is the demiurge!

Thanks for allowing me to 'geek out' a little :)

[Soldier of the One]

I am in a weird position on this. I don't believe in Satan, not the Christian version at least (big surprise, being a Jew, right?). I do believe that there are evil forces, though. I have had some experiences that make me very attached to this belief; in addition, I know someone who was in on a few exorcisms and I trust their testimony. I guess I just don't see any evil entity as being as powerful as God, or even approaching it. The human existence is so flawed that we could focus more on starvation and less on what evil spirits might be out to get us. A possessed person is ONE person, but an entire country of starving children (when our planet is producing enough food to feed everyone) is where the real evil lies.

Emmie, as a Jew, I am sure you'll be familiar with Jewish teachings on the yetzer hara (the evil inclination) and the yetzer hatov (the good inclination); the two forces that 'balance' each human being. Although the yetzer hara is an internalized and natural (as opposed to supernatural) force of evil.

I don't want to delegitimize your beliefs; those are yours to hold. But I do particularly agree with the last part of your statement :)

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I am in a weird position on this. I don't believe in Satan, not the Christian version at least (big surprise, being a Jew, right?). I do believe that there are evil forces, though. I have had some experiences that make me very attached to this belief; in addition, I know someone who was in on a few exorcisms and I trust their testimony. I guess I just don't see any evil entity as being as powerful as God, or even approaching it. The human existence is so flawed that we could focus more on starvation and less on what evil spirits might be out to get us. A possessed person is ONE person, but an entire country of starving children (when our planet is producing enough food to feed everyone) is where the real evil lies.

Actually, emmidahl, you described what I believe. I was trying to say this but didn't know how to put it into words so I just gave up.

Perhaps it's the stereotypical Satan that I don't believe in--that might be the way I could put it.

And on the exorcism note--perhaps I'm a bad Catholic but I didn't use to believe in actual satanic or demonic possession because I didn't understand it. There was an excellent book I read that at least made me rethink that. If you're interested in a journalistic view of exorcism, "The Rite" by Matt Baglio was really good.

[Soldier of the One]

Forgive me my view on Satan--some of it is what I've learned in church, and mostly it's what I've read in books and the tiny snippets of theology that I can take in at a time. I remember that i had a hard time trying to grasp just how much power Satan has, and believed in nearly a dualistic type of understanding (I forget what the name of the religion is, but there was some sort of Eastern religion that did believe in a dualistic nature...?) It wasn't until I went to college that I realized the dualistic nature of putting Satan nearly on the same level as God was a mistaken belief. It might have been a book by Pope Benedict XVI, or some other theological book I read.

So, now when people go on about "OMG SATAN IS TEMPTING US!" I have to remember that Satan is a weakling. A fallen angel, he is no where near the level of God. He also doesn't have THAT much power over people. Not to say that I don't think he exists, but he merely has his discord-creating talents and minions, and pretends he has power.

He does a good job of convincing people, too--he's convinced fundamentalists that he's so powerful that they need to fear him that much. Kind of like the whole Jehovah's Witness story I posted a while back, about hearts being "tempting" toward sin. Is their faith so weak that they fear any sort of temptation?

We don't want to stray into pridefulness about our salvation 'cause that isn't good either. Seriously though--some of these people act as if their hold on God is a hair-thin thread. They say "Oh, we're so saved! God is so amazing! He has all my heart!!11!" but then they act as if the slightest thing will break that thread. "Oh no, I showed 1 cm of my cleavage! I just turned men into uncontrollable horndogs! I'm so evil!"

I can't quite comprehend the fundie take on Satan/salvation/faith. It's such a contradiction.

Thanks for sharing!

The ancient dualistic Eastern religion you refer to is probably Zoroastrianism ('the Wise Lord', Ahura Mazda versus 'the Evil One', Ariman), or its variant from late Antiquity, Mithraism. Both are very dualistic.

Yes, I am surprised too by this fundamentalist attitude. On the one hand, they insist on their salvation but on the other hand, they don't trust themselves. It certainly isn't a very optimistic view of the human being and the human dimension in relationship with the Divine.

[emmiedahl]

I do believe that most evil comes from within. As for the external evil, we Mizrachi Jews are superstitious sorts. :D

[Soldier of the One]

I do believe that most evil comes from within. As for the external evil, we Mizrachi Jews are superstitious sorts. :D

K'ayn hora! :twisted: :)

(I didn't know you were Mizrachi. Cool! Loving the Jew Crew here at FJ :))

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Thanks for sharing!

The ancient dualistic Eastern religion you refer to is probably Zoroastrianism ('the Wise Lord', Ahura Mazda versus 'the Evil One', Ariman), or its variant from late Antiquity, Mithraism. Both are very dualistic.

Yes, I am surprised too by this fundamentalist attitude. On the one hand, they insist on their salvation but on the other hand, they don't trust themselves. It certainly isn't a very optimistic view of the human being and the human dimension in relationship with the Divine.

It was Zoroastrianism--thank you! I remember a couple of history classes that included the history of religion (goes hand in hand with culture...) and found Zoroastrianism fascinating, especially in contrast with the monotheistic Abrahamic faiths, with a fallen angel going around trying to tempt people.

I think a lot of the fundie concept of salvation and sin probably stems from the Calvinistic understanding of God and satan. Calvin was certainly a pessimist.

[JesusFightClub]

No great insights to share, lol. But this does remind me of something.

I had a Japanese mate who was a child psychologist and she once said something I found very intriguing. "Westerners have a Devil that's outside you and you blame him for things. In Japan we know the devils are inside us. There isn't an outside one, so in the end we are facing ourselves."

I was thinking about this the other day when one of the fundies was on about Satan attacking them. Not very helpful from a fundyspective, but distinctly more likely.

[BravaAmica]

I don't believe in Satan, an external, conscious force that influences humans to do evil. I think humans are all capable of evil, as well as good.

[Soldier of the One]

t was Zoroastrianism--thank you! I remember a couple of history classes that included the history of religion (goes hand in hand with culture...) and found Zoroastrianism fascinating, especially in contrast with the monotheistic Abrahamic faiths, with a fallen angel going around trying to tempt people.

I think a lot of the fundie concept of salvation and sin probably stems from the Calvinistic understanding of God and satan. Calvin was certainly a pessimist.

You're welcome - I aim to please ;)

Zoroastrianism in its contemporary guise has become far more 'mainstream' monotheist. Most contemporary Zoroastrians talk about 'God', and not the evil force. Although Zoroastrianism (like Judaism) has a distinctly ritualistic feel to it, it is a surprisingly ethical religion centered around 'good thoughts, good words, good deeds'. I enjoy reading up on it :)

And yes, Zoroastrianism was of significant influence on post-exilic Israelite religion (Judaism) and on early Christianity and perhaps even Islam.

[Soldier of the One]

No great insights to share, lol. But this does remind me of something.

I had a Japanese mate who was a child psychologist and she once said something I found very intriguing. "Westerners have a Devil that's outside you and you blame him for things. In Japan we know the devils are inside us. There isn't an outside one, so in the end we are facing ourselves."

I was thinking about this the other day when one of the fundies was on about Satan attacking them. Not very helpful from a fundyspective, but distinctly more likely.

With the risk of grossly oversimplifying, this is what we Jews believe too. (See my comment further up the thread to emmiedahl on the evil/good inclination).

[debrand]

The first thing that I though about when I saw this thread was Harry Potter. I've heard and read so many statements about how reading the book will somehow let Satan into your life. It is strange that those who are often the most outspoken in their beliefs are also the ones who act as though their god can be weakened by their reading the wrong book or watching the wrong tv show.

The scariest view of Satan is that he can appear to be good and beautiful, thus leading the unwary person down the wrong path. Some Christians use the image of the lurking Satan to keep one another in line. They combine the slippery slope argument with an evil force. "You read Harry Potter and Satan will lead you to (insert evil act)"

[Soldier of the One]

That is... rather scary. Paranoia-inducing, in fact.

And I never got the Anti-Potter thing. Potter is completely moral literature written by a Christian, no less!

[Kitty]

Hello, atheist here. I believe God was created by man, not the other way around, and so was Satan.

Satan seems to play little role in fundamentalism. Honestly, I think the fundies relegated Satan to short skirts, sex, drugs, rock'n'roll, and naughty language. Any time a fundie is exposed to any of the above, it's Satan.

But when they really really want something, God will either give him this or he won't. If he doesn't, it may or may not be Satan. Usually, it's "God's plan" if something doesn't go the way fundies want it to.

So Satan doesn't really do much in fundies' lives, unless the fundies have been exposed to other worldviews.

[Soldier of the One]

Kitty,

If both God and Satan are man-made inventions, then Satan is pretty lousy invention, IMHO :)

I just have difficulty with a worldview that places all the blame on an external, supernatural Other, be it God or Satan. But especially Satan. To me, that seems even more inconsistent and morally fraught.