Someone explain Kelly's logic, please

[godlytomatosoup]

http://www.amblesideonline.org/CMAttainments.shtml

Yeah, that sounds like a lot of work to me. Worthwhile, certainly, but not something that you could do without putting effort in.

[alba]

I think 'grammar' means explicit grammar theory - 'this is a verb, this is the nominative case' etc. My education didn't focus on grammar very much at all, so when we learned the terms for French tenses and moods, it was pretty new to me. "Auxiliary verbs"? Never learned about it until I was learning a second language.

Ah, gotcha.

I think that the abstract teaching isn't as important as immersion, the best way to attain that immersion being through reading. That said, there are some rules of grammar that it can be difficult to pick up, simply through immersion. I got an essay back in my fourth year of uni (my degree is in English) in which my tutor had circled my correct use of an apostrophe and complimented me on it. The situation in question was a possessive plural; that is "the knights' something-or-other". Of course, this suggests that many of his students don't use the apostrophe correctly in such circumstances. Certainly all his students are relatively well-read, given that they all study English literature, so I suspect it's lack of good grammatical teaching that's at fault.

Actually, the way jennytheislander describes Mason's approach to grammar is probably how I'd teach it if I were in a situation where I needed to teach it.

[JesusFightClub]

I have felt the loss of not learning grammar in school. My grammar is pretty horrible. One of the issues I have is that immersion wouldn't work where I am from for learning correct English. On the other thread, where Sarah Maxwell's post was getting lol'd at for bad English, I couldn't work out at first what was wrong because the construction she used is right in modern Scots. It just isn't in English.

Examples (slightly de Scotified to make them comprehensible):

"He'll be wanting his tea"

"Will you not just have to put in a new claim?"

"She'll not mind having done that" ["She won't remember that she did that."]

(Being a linguistic mutt, when speaking I also have both the London "innit" and the Scots "ken" at the end of some of my sentences and use both interchangeably. So I end up saying things like "They'll no be coming now, innit." *sigh* )

Bottom line, kids do need to know proper grammar IMO, not just pick it up off adults. If a child was relying on talking to me to learn how to use grammar correctly, an epic fail would occur.

Even reading books may not help with this. The child probably needs a combination of reading, speaking, and understanding the underpinnings of grammar in English.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Nothing personal, but this is why I'm not a fan of homeschooling. Because there is very little tracking of whether the parents are able to supply enough education to their children From what I can see, everyone thinks they're doing a bang up job. But no one is really paying attention, and this is devastating - and not only to the children, but to society as a whole. Once people pull out their children and decide that they are doing a better job than the system and EVERYONE should - well then I believe we're making an incredible mistake. JMHO.

[Rant over]

No problem with ranting. Rant away. I totally understand you point. From this board I know homeschooling can be done in a way that has positive results. And I went to college with students who had been homeschooled and they thrived in college.

But one thing I've noticed with some fundie homeschoolers is there methods focus on home, not on schooling. They don't really seem to care about their children getting a good education as long as they are not in evil public school exposed to new ideas, concepts and people who are, egad, different!

Could I homeschool? I don't know. I could probably effectively teach English, writing, arts appreciation. Yet, I would struggle teaching my kids math and science. Maybe this is where the idea of a homeschooling co-op comes in where parents with various expertise in different topics pool their skills to teach their children.

[Guest Anonymous]

first Kelly seems to jump on the this is what is in, in the fundy world this week and so she is suddely an expert. Her Logic wraps around what is cool at any given point in time. CM has been big in the fundyworld for a while, but they don't really follow it in what I have seen.

I home school but I do have people I answer to so saying home schoolers don't it kind of lumping us all in the same group which is not true. And I do teach grammar. From diagramming sentences to how to write paragraphs etc. My reason is in PS noone taught me and as I have been learning and teaching my children I realized my writing is terrible, so we learn together. Also the whole you only need grammar if your parents can't speak properly theory is stupid. Not all kids are the same and they need different lessons in life, while not all children need to be taught grammar some others need to be walked step by step piece by piece to write well. Just like some kids can pick up reading in seconds and others take years and have to be carefully guided through the process. Alot depends on the child itself not the home life. Just because her child can skip a lesson in life and make it just fine doesn't mean it is the perfect way to go.

I also agree a lot of people get into home school and having a large family and can not keep up. I mean no person can make bread, soak everything, sew all their clothes, do a million crafts, have a spotless house, huge fancy meals, tea parties, look perfect, blog for hours, have hours of sex with husbands and home school a child over the age of 7 in one day, it is not possible. They have to make shortcuts, but lets be honest housework, their perfect image and the blogs are not going to go on the back burner as in school.lol Oh except when making a neat craft or going on a field trip can make a great picture for a blog.

[Mommy22alyns]

As a college teacher, I'm increasingly frustrated with the attitude that 'public schooling' isn't that great, and kids aren't learning much, so why not dismantle it? [i'm not claiming perfection, mind you, but really?] But Kelly seems to go one step further with the attitude that if you're simply AROUND your children, they will magically learn the entire school system's resources!

It seems like she's super-tired and she doesn't feel like teaching anymore. So she - and all the Kelly Lites - have convinced themselves that there is no need for it. And is not being higher than an average Alabama school child something to shoot for?

http://www.generationcedar.com/main/201 ... l#comments

Uh, what?? PS are behind so it's okay to be behind the PS kids???? My goal in homeschooling is to do better than the PS, not worse.

[Turtle]

I'm an English teacher (English as a foreign language to adults) and an editor for English textbooks, and I think teaching grammar is really important. Sure, a young student will get a reasonable grasp on what "sounds right" by immersing themselves in quality literature, but actually learning grammar is important if you want to be a good writer. Immersion only vs. immersion plus grammar instruction is the difference between mediocre and quality writing. Once a student is in college, you want them to be developing their voice and content, not spending time learning how to properly use a semi-colon, ect.

Americans overall are terrible when it comes to grammar. Many of my EFL students are asked to proof read their native English speaking colleagues' work because they have actually learned grammar and their American counterparts have not. I don't see how that should be an excuse for a homeschool parent to not teach grammar though. So, since everyone else sucks at it, it doesn't matter if my kids suck as well? Logic fail.

[snarkykitty]

Wow, have you read her comments? The first one blows my mind. She said that her husband didn't know that "next door neighbor" was three separate words. :shock:

"My husband, on the other, hated reading and writing in school. He reads now, occasionally, but his writing skills are something to be desired, that’s for sure. As for spelling, oh dear, he needs help! I know spelling isn’t the same as grammer, but the two are definately linked. I’m always telling him to sound things out. That only works if words are pronounced properly. I remember the first time I asked him to do that, he sounded out “nexderneighbor†(next-door-neighbor). I was so suprised he didn’t realized it was three seperate words!"

[emmiedahl]

It's amusing that she talks about spelling in the same sentence as "seperate".

[Effie]

Wow, have you read her comments? The first one blows my mind. She said that her husband didn't know that "next door neighbor" was three separate words. :shock:

"My husband, on the other, hated reading and writing in school. He reads now, occasionally, but his writing skills are something to be desired, that’s for sure. As for spelling, oh dear, he needs help! I know spelling isn’t the same as grammer, but the two are definately linked. I’m always telling him to sound things out. That only works if words are pronounced properly. I remember the first time I asked him to do that, he sounded out “nexderneighbor†(next-door-neighbor). I was so suprised he didn’t realized it was three seperate words!"

Does she really spell that badly?

[Wolfie]

Does she really spell that badly?

I was wondering the same thing after that quote. Those parents are teaching their kids? It's worse than what I see occasionally on friends' facebooks who are homeschooling their kids. Last night I saw, "me and *kidsname* are having a girls night out," on a homeschooling friend's post.

[Effie]

I was wondering the same thing after that quote. Those parents are teaching their kids? It's worse than what I see occasionally on friends' facebooks who are homeschooling their kids. Last night I saw, "me and *kidsname* are having a girls night out," on a homeschooling friend's post.

Oh it wasn't Kelly who wrote that comment. It was someone named Rachel. It seems like Rachel intends to teach her children though. :shock:

[VodouDoll]

Maybe I'm missing something. Are they saying that everyday conversation is an adequate replacement for all lessons, or just grammar? How do they expect kids to pick up trigonometry and chemical equations and the lymphatic system and the ins and outs of the French and Indian War and everything else through daily chitchat?

[GolightlyGrrl]

I'm an English teacher (English as a foreign language to adults) and an editor for English textbooks, and I think teaching grammar is really important. Sure, a young student will get a reasonable grasp on what "sounds right" by immersing themselves in quality literature, but actually learning grammar is important if you want to be a good writer. Immersion only vs. immersion plus grammar instruction is the difference between mediocre and quality writing. Once a student is in college, you want them to be developing their voice and content, not spending time learning how to properly use a semi-colon, ect.

Americans overall are terrible when it comes to grammar. Many of my EFL students are asked to proof read their native English speaking colleagues' work because they have actually learned grammar and their American counterparts have not. I don't see how that should be an excuse for a homeschool parent to not teach grammar though. So, since everyone else sucks at it, it doesn't matter if my kids suck as well? Logic fail.

I was a writing tutor in college and often the ESL students wrote and spoken better English than some of the American students.

[Mommy22alyns]

I was wondering the same thing after that quote. Those parents are teaching their kids? It's worse than what I see occasionally on friends' facebooks who are homeschooling their kids. Last night I saw, "me and *kidsname* are having a girls night out," on a homeschooling friend's post.

My third grader knows that's wrong. :roll:

[fundiefan]

I was a writing tutor in college and often the ESL students wrote and spoken better English than some of the American students.

Me too. While many of my peers dreaded getting an ESL student to tutor, I loved it. I learned something new every time.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Ooops! I should probably read the post BEFORE commenting. Obviously it is a Charlotte Mason concept since she is directly quoting Charlotte Mason!!!!

I read that as Charles Manson's educational theories. Charles Manson has ed. theories? Oh wait...

I do that a lot :oops: