Would you consider ATI/IBLP a cult?

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I've been fascinated by religious cults, but there's got to be some sort of line I can't quite define between fundie and cult. Or would you say fundie-ism is a cult?

 

I'm inclined to say that fundie-ism is a dangerous take on religious beliefs, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever, but isn't actually a cult per se.

 

On the other hand, Bill Gothard seems to be the head of a cultic organization, using religion to trap people into the lifestyle of fundie-ism, with a otensibly secular branch to make everything outwardly all hunky-dory to the unsuspecting public.

 

This is a partly philosophical, partly theological, and partly psychological question, and I'd be interested to see what others' take on this is.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I would say it is, because Gothard encourages his followers to:

1) isolate themselves from non-believers, even if they're family

2) spend massive amounts of money (often at the expense of caring properly for their children) on conferences, teaching material, etc

3) continue to behave in ways that are harmful (popping out child after child with no income, not working in order to control family from home)

4) give children a sub-par education

5) keep children from leaving the home and having their own life

6) dress and groom in a way that he finds preferable

And that's just what I could think of off the top of my head, I'm not even that familiar with Gothard/ATI.

[LeatherCouch]

Interesting question. I'd love to know if the responders have any first hand knowledge of the "ministry", and if that colors their opinion. I have attended the seminar, attended an IFB church that was Gothardite, and I would say that yes, it is a cult.

[Kitty]

I wouldn't say that extremism in itself is a cult. I can't even consider Westboro Baptist, for example, a cult. They're extreme, but they don't really hit any of the points of a cult.

IBLP/ATI? Oh hell yeah, that's a cult. Children don't leave the home until they're married, and even then they're under their father's "umbrella of protection" or whatever. He's pretty particular about appearance. Everything is under the control of Gothard, and nobody else is to be believed unless they're approved by Gothard. I'm pretty sure that Gothard deliberately made ATI sub-standard, so that kids would stay at home forever, unless they managed to find work that didn't require much of an education (towing business? woodcutting?) VF hits some of the points StarryEyedKat mentions, but even then they're a bit iffy. ATI is for sure a cult.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think the are a cult. As others have pointed out, they have all of the "tells".

[mirele]

I consider ATI and the Westboro Baptist Church to be cults, because they practice institutionalized shunning. (And yeah, that'd include the Amish, I find shunning to be reprehensible.)

[longskirts]

I would say no. I think there is a tendency to label any unattractive religious group as a cult. Some of the things that Christians consider cult-like about Gothardism are viewed as more normal by other religious groups. For example, people bristle at the dress code, but Gothard's ideas on clothing are really lenient compared to the requirements that some Jews and Muslims follow.

I'm not impressed with the ATI education, but I don't think members are necessarily limited to that. The Duggars use Sing, Spell, Read, and Write for the little kids--that is a secular curriculum. They use a computer curriculum that is Christian, but not affiliated with Gothard. I think the Bates also list some non-Gothardite curricula on their website. I don't think they get a good education--but it's not the same as being in a cult and having exposure to nothing else.

The Duggars also have contact with non-ATI family members. If Gothard doesn't want anyone to do that, he doesn't enforce the rule very well.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

Yeah definately a cult. For me it's about the isolation - family is isolated from others who aren't also like minded. There's also micro-isolation within the family, as in girls aren't allowed to have male friends, courting, ect. Girls can't go out without a chaperone (even if they're over the age of 18). They are strongly discouraged by their culture to not have a life outside their homes and religious community.

[alba]

I think so, yes. It's not the religious fundamentalism, but the fact that one person dictates what the members do, even if those things are harmful. There's also, as others have said, the requisite isolation.

[hoipolloi]

Definitely ATI and Westboro since they both seem to revolve around strong personalities who call the shots. I don't know enough about IBLP churches or congregations although they seem to impose all of those restrictions/requirements on their members.

[deelaem]

Oh hell yes!

[3 is enough]

Absolutely.

[Lily]

I would say it is, because Gothard encourages his followers to:

1) isolate themselves from non-believers, even if they're family

2) spend massive amounts of money (often at the expense of caring properly for their children) on conferences, teaching material, etc

3) continue to behave in ways that are harmful (popping out child after child with no income, not working in order to control family from home)

4) give children a sub-par education

5) keep children from leaving the home and having their own life

6) dress and groom in a way that he finds preferable

And that's just what I could think of off the top of my head, I'm not even that familiar with Gothard/ATI.

Ditto to this, and the other thing that's very cultlike is the systematic isolation of the genders. Especially isolation of daughters away from males other than the fathers. Cult leaders love to have women separated, whether physically or just socially, away from men. They're much easier to control, and all the better if they've been raised completely in this mentality.

Another cultish aspect is the looming 'end times', though unlike most cults, I haven't seen Gothard or any of the head fundies predicting exactly when and how it will occur. The vague threat of it, combined with some spooky sounding scripture, is enough to do the job without wild and specific predictions from a leader.

[Spider Burps]

In short, no BUT... I think they have a very cult-like system going on. In my mind a cult involves isolation to a higher degree than most ATI/IBLP folks engage in. I know they are highly isolated compared to normal people, but it seems to be that they are allowed much more social interaction than what something I would consider to be a "real" cult to allow. I don't know the guidelines for defining a cult so I could be off, but when I think cult I think the Manson family--or the King of the Hill episode "Fun with Jane and Jane"--so there's a good chance that I'm thinking waaaay too extreme with my mental definition.

[longskirtlotsakids]

The very nature- "Advanced Training Institute" gives me cult vibes. It's not just about religious belief, but the WHOLE LIFESTYLE is analyzed. From food to finances to child rearing, Every.Single.Fucking. Aspect. of your life is handed over for training and instruction. There is no room for individual freedom, just rote obedience.

[Lily]

In short, no BUT... I think they have a very cult-like system going on. In my mind a cult involves isolation to a higher degree than most ATI/IBLP folks engage in. I know they are highly isolated compared to normal people, but it seems to be that they are allowed much more social interaction than what something I would consider to be a "real" cult to allow. I don't know the guidelines for defining a cult so I could be off, but when I think cult I think the Manson family--or the King of the Hill episode "Fun with Jane and Jane"--so there's a good chance that I'm thinking waaaay too extreme with my mental definition.

I think the socialisation with other people is where a lot of us stumble when classifying Gothardism/ATI as a cult or not.

For me, it came down to whether or not they were allowed any meaningful interaction with others. Lots of groups that have been classified as cults do allow interaction with the outside world, even with non-member family members, but the question really is, is the interaction truly socialising and being allowed to participate, learn and communicate in the wider world, or is it superficial communication in which the leader/group is still in control at all times?

I had to lump Gothard/ATI into the cult category considering that, because while his followers are allowed contact with others, even casual socialisation with them, the group and the religion is still in control and those relationships are not allowed to be any deeper than casual politeness and attempts to "save" the non-member.

[Rachel333]

I think "cult" is a fairly useless word. People tend to use it to describe whatever religious group they dislike, and being labeled a cult makes people extra defensive. I know there are some guidelines on what makes a cult, but you can stretch those to fit just about any group, and people often do.

That said, I do think it's a very dangerous and suppressive religious group.

[formergothardite]

Yes. There are stories of Gothard sending girls back to their room to make sure their hair looks like he wants it too. Girls with naturally super curly hair were told to make it less curly, girls with stick straight hair told to make it curly. He had a certain look he wants and if you are going to be around him, you need to look that way.

His whole ministry is based on the idea that parents will not only send their young, impressionable teens to "minister" at his training centers, but that they will pay him for the joy of just lettting their kids work for him. His employees pay him! And he gets to control every aspect of their lives while they are there.

When I was at EXCEL, they really did try and cut you off from your family while at the same time making you doubt all of your thoughts and actions. Not allowing the weekly call home was one of the punishments used. There were people there who spent all their time going from one Gothard event to another, barely going home. Education was a joke. For all the talk about family, Gothard has no issue keeping teens away from their family and under his control.

Gothard also restricts food at his training centers where a lot of teens in ATI spend a good chunk of time. We were forced to fast on Sundays. At one time he made one of the training centers only served vegan food (I think it was mostly raw vegan), yet he kept junk food in his office to eat.

And then there is the mini-army ALERT that he founded.

Yeah, he is a cult leader.

[MerryHappy]

Yes. I believe ATIA is a cult.

[camdendayton]

Personally, I would say that any group that requires $x for y amount of salvation, knowledge of the truth, whatever they call it, and sees their way as the only way, is a cult. There are obviously other ways to be a cult, but I think IBLP falls into this one and is thus a cult. They also have the charismatic leader in Gothard, thought they do a good job of acting like it's not all about him, that is also common in cults from my experience.

Lewis used some well respected definitions of cults and wrote a post about this: http://thecommandmentsofmen.blogspot.co ... iness.html. It is not specific to Gothard but certainly applies. I think he's right on about setting up each family as a mini-cult.

And while my previous definition doesn't apply to Westboro Baptist I would argue it is a family based cult. Almost all the "members" of the church are children and grandchildren of Phelps. I didn't know that much about them, other than their lovely message, until I watched _Fall from Grace_ on Netflix, and just seeing the brainwashing and anger from even the children when asked if they have friends (their response was something like "no I don't have friends. Why would I want them?" basically saying that everyone but them is going straight to hell.)

To me that's a cult. If you're in a group where to be in it you have to believe everyone else is going to hell, that's a cult too.

There are lots of different types of cults, for example, I would say LaRouchians are a political cult: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaRouche_movement

[emmiedahl]

I would broadly define a cult as a religion that ruins lives. This of course requires a broad definition of religion--a set of metaphysical beliefs. If there are aspects that are highly detrimental and controlling, plus you cannot leave because of physical, emotional or spiritual constraints, then you get into cult territory.

[liltwinstar]

Oh yeah, I believe it is a cult.

Also, something that I've observed in other cult groups is that there are people who can hang around the edges enough to be accepted, but they're not hard-core followers. So, they can sometimes emerge from these cult groups thinking "yeah, it was destructive/dangerous, but I didn't get too hurt by it and I could leave, so it's not a cult." Basically, they sip the koolaid :)

Meanwhile, there are other people who get WAY into the group and basically give up their entire lives to it. These are a the hard-core followers who GUZZLE the koolaid and make all their life decisions (job, children, spouse, clothing, hair, living situation, money) on what they think the cult leader wants, in an attempt to gain more favor/prestige. They are absolutely cult members in my opinion.

Also, if a group says that you will lose your salvation and/or have terrible stuff happen to you if you leave the group (becuase they have the only true interpration of the Bible/ are the only "true" followers of Jesus, etc, etc) I would say that right there defines a cult.

[Mythicwings]

A cult is way more than the ones who end up committing mass suicide or mass murder. A couple of people mentioned these, as if as long as a group is short of this, it isn't a cult. But I agree with emmiedahl "plus you cannot leave because of physical, emotional or spiritual constraints, then you get into cult territory."

Gothardites and IFB and all of those types are raising their families to not be able to emotionally or spiritually leave. That is why the ones who leave usually need some kind of deep therapy to not only heal from the abuse, but to become functional adults in the real world. And those groups are way more dangerous than the ones that end up dying or killing, because the killer-ones don't just set off red flags they set off humungous stink bombs. The fundamentalists just seem like an extreme version of a religion to outsiders, but not to the people who survive them and need to repair their damaged minds.

Besides, groups like Gothard, and fundamental christianity of almost any kind, are evangelical and so cannot be completely isolationist. They HAVE to go out into the world to bring people to christ, which means their view of living in christ. So they raise their kids to think that that is the only way to be in the world. I mean, there are the "liberal" fundies who go to the movies and the girls wear pants, but they do wordly things knowing they are teetering on the edge of letting satan in. So yeah, I do think Gothard and any of those groups that act like that are cults. I grew up like that and there are severe repercussions for leaving. That doesn't happen with a free-type religious practice or upbringing.

[AnnoDomini]

Oh man, the more I read about ATI the more I'm so glad my family didn't do that. I asked my mother this morning what she thought of ATI (we'd just finished talking about what she likes about the Duggars--long story short, she likes the people and thinks they're nice) and she said she liked the curriculum but thought some of the followers (though not all) were legalistic, and that the only reason we hadn't used ATI was the required yearly trip, which would have been too expensive for us.

[CanticleoftheTurning]

I love all the viewpoints. That's what I was struggling with--where exactly one draws the lines between "weirdo fundie" and "cult." I know there's a lot of grey areas, but there IS a line somewhere.

Also, something that I've observed in other cult groups is that there are people who can hang around the edges enough to be accepted, but they're not hard-core followers. So, they can sometimes emerge from these cult groups thinking "yeah, it was destructive/dangerous, but I didn't get too hurt by it and I could leave, so it's not a cult." Basically, they sip the koolaid :)

I've noticed that too, about cults. The really sneaky ones are the ones that have a small "normalish" fringe and thus, use them to hide the true nature of cult.

I found a cult checklist---

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

I bolded some of the parts that people mentioned about Gothard's cult...and from what little I know about it.

The work routine at the ATI camps...I remember reading about how much of a drudgery it was, making kids work far more than laws allowed, and doing things that were unsafe for their age, and so on.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone say that it was okay to lie in order to dupe someone else into becoming Christian?

• The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
  
• Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
  
• Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
  
• The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
  
• The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
  
• The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
  
• The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
  
• The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
  
• The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
  
• Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
  
• The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
  
• The group is preoccupied with making money.
  
• Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
  
• Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
  
• The most loyal members (the “true believersâ€) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.