Comparing Orthodox Jewish and Christian Courtship

[longskirts]

http://curiousjew.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... tship.html

This Jewish blogger seems to like the idea of Christian courtship better.

[slh12280]

What is it with Orthodox Jews reading up on fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Christians reading up on Jewish practices...weird. Is this a trend?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Interesting, but I think it's a case of "grass is greener".

You know what? I've known couples who got together through the Orthodox shidduch system, and heard glowing romantic reports. You don't hear the downside unless you are intimately involved with the community, and see the situations in which things don't end up happily ever after.

Her reference to Gila Manolson was interesting for this reason. Gila does outreach-oriented writing, putting a positive spin on topics like modesty. If the courtship guy was writing in the same style, then she was comparing a rosy marketing effort with the reality that she knows.

BTW - there are different styles of shidduch dating in the Orthodox world. Modern Orthodox may meet each other on their own, but agree that dating should be for marriage purposes. In the Hasidic world, parents tend to be heavily involved in checking out suggested matches long before anything is said to the potential bride or groom, so the actual dating period is simply to see if the couple is compatible. The "yeshivish" non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox community is a mix of the two styles - couples won't meet their own, but use matchmakers (including online Orthodox dating services) and parents get involved in checking out references, but it's common to date quite a few people before finding the right one.

[lizzy]

Interesting, but I think it's a case of "grass is greener".

You know what? I've known couples who got together through the Orthodox shidduch system, and heard glowing romantic reports. You don't hear the downside unless you are intimately involved with the community, and see the situations in which things don't end up happily ever after.

Her reference to Gila Manolson was interesting for this reason. Gila does outreach-oriented writing, putting a positive spin on topics like modesty. If the courtship guy was writing in the same style, then she was comparing a rosy marketing effort with the reality that she knows.

BTW - there are different styles of shidduch dating in the Orthodox world. Modern Orthodox may meet each other on their own, but agree that dating should be for marriage purposes. In the Hasidic world, parents tend to be heavily involved in checking out suggested matches long before anything is said to the potential bride or groom, so the actual dating period is simply to see if the couple is compatible. The "yeshivish" non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox community is a mix of the two styles - couples won't meet their own, but use matchmakers (including online Orthodox dating services) and parents get involved in checking out references, but it's common to date quite a few people before finding the right one.

Are Orthodox Jews permitted to divorce or is there some kind of shunning in the community?

[Sarah]

Divorce is allowed in Judaism. How it plays out is different than civil divorce, but it's definitely an option provided for and encouraged (in certain situations) in Jewish law.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Divorce is allowed. It is becoming more common, although it is still much less common than in secular society. There are some issues that can arise with the procedure, because the man must "give" the divorce document and the woman must "receive" it. If either refuses to cooperate, it can cause problems. There are some creative ways to deal with this, including legal pressure in some jurisdictions (in Canada, for example, you can't finalize a civil divorce if you are deliberately holding up a religious divorce) and community/religious pressure on a difficult spouse to cooperate with the religious divorce.

I wouldn't say that there is shunning, but in a fairly close-knit community you find that people would talk.

[OrangeTulips]

I just read an article that puts the orthodox divorce rate at around 35% now. In modern orthodoxy and even some yeshivish circles, I don't even think there's much talking anymore, except normal "nosy neighbor" speculation.

[debrand]

I found this concept fascinating because it seems to echo aspects of our shidduch system, except in a sweeter way. Rather than exchanging references, sheets of paper, resumes and suchlike, a boy becomes interested in a girl (through meeting her at church, on a mission, or because the girl's father likes him and brings him to dinner) and asks permission of the parents and the girl herself to court her. It's very romantic

We could probably show show the author blog after blog of unmarried girls who appear unhappy. It's odd that anyone would find this system romantic.

I actually don't think that a person is wrong for engaging in courtship but I do think that they aren't any more likely to have a succesful marriage than those of us that dated. Also, there is no Christian way to find a spouse.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I just read an article that puts the orthodox divorce rate at around 35% now. In modern orthodoxy and even some yeshivish circles, I don't even think there's much talking anymore, except normal "nosy neighbor" speculation.

That's what I meant by "talk". It's not "oh you're a sinner for getting a divorce", but you would get "nu, what happened? I wonder if...."

[2xx1xy1JD]

We could probably show show the author blog after blog of unmarried girls who appear unhappy. It's odd that anyone would find this system romantic.

I actually don't think that a person is wrong for engaging in courtship but I do think that they aren't any more likely to have a succesful marriage than those of us that dated. Also, there is no Christian way to find a spouse.

I don't know any fundie Christians in real life who do courtship. How do they actually find someone to court? Is there anything like the Jewish matchmakers? Do the parents find the potential spouse, or do the parties themselves somehow meet?