Pwning a duggar defender

[CanticleoftheTurning]

So, on Facebook I'm friends with some people who are fans of the Duggars.

 

I've recently been speaking up against them because of the child abuse allegations and because the Duggars are part of a cultic organization.

 

Someone responded to me:

 

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Actually, the Duggars have NEVER endorsed Michael Pearl's works, nor have they ever stated that they use corporal punishment on their children. It is a pretty big leap to go from "they are Quiverfull" to "they beat their children."

 

Michelle was asked in an article that appeared on MSNBC how she disciplined her children, especially those between the ages of 2-4, and her response was "The goal in our home is to praise our children 10 times more than we correct them. When we learn how to praise good character in our children, it builds good character. The positive reinforcement is what builds up their self-worth.

I've literally whispered, calmed myself, spoken softly to my children, so they are learning by my example to have a light response."

That sounds about as far from "abusive child training practices" as one can possibly get.

 

I also highly doubt that the TLC camera crew would stand by idly as the Duggars beat their children into submission, nor would they continue to promote and broadcast their show if that were the case.

 

So I pwned her with what little I know.

 

 

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They have endorsed the Pearls on their website before, toward the beginning, but scrubbed it early on. However, some time ago they had some sort of "Amazon Blitz" where they advertised discounts on various homeschooling and child rearing books, and spoke very highly of the Pearls.

 

http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz

 

Also, before they became "famous," they were part of an online parenting/homeschooling/quiverfull group where Michelle advocated using rulers for blanket training.

 

Keep in mind that TLC isn't there ALL the time. Also keep in mind that the people who we least think are abusive, or people who deny they're abusive can still be abusive. Having been raised in an abusive family, I KNOW how families put on a good public face while abuse goes on behind the scenes. My dad will deny the abuse, and he is fairly prominent in the [city redacted] homeschooling movement, but he is psychologically and verbally abusive at home. Many of my relatives did not know.

 

Also, please read up about ATI, which they are a part of--there's terrible controversy about the group, which functions essentially as a cult.

 

http://www.alternet.org/belief/149921/c ... speak_out/

 

Also, here's a link from someone who used to be part of ATI, and it is terribly abusive of women. http://xatigirl.wordpress.com/2010/07/2 ... it-really/

 

I'll stop with the links since Google will turn up plenty more, but I have serious, serious misgivings about the Duggars bringing yet another child to their family when they are actively part of a cultic organization, send their kids off to the ATI training camps where there have been reports of human rights violations, and when the family had, at least prior to their TV series, hit babies with rulers.

 

I'm shaking because I hate confrontations. I hate hate hate confrontations, but I hate child abuse and anyone who tries to brush it off, deny, or defend it.

 

I could use a some words of support from the FJ community please

 

Also, I didn't know what else i could have cited to counter the TLC claim, and decided to leave that part out of the picture, and focus my argument on why I have serious misgivings about the Duggars #20.

[Sola]

Well done! People just see the fake smiley family and don't realise all the bullshit that goes on when the cameras are off.

[NurseNell]

What is pwning?

[Aurora]

I hear you, Canticle. I hate confrontations too! Don't worry, you did great! You hit the really important points, and you were clear and logical. :) :)

What is pwning?

[CanticleoftheTurning]

What is pwning?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pwn

Basically dominating or countering an opponent.

And thanks, Sola and Aurora. I'm perhaps unreasonably fearful of any reply this person might make, but I just really hate child abuse.

[browngrl]

I hear you, Canticle. I hate confrontations too! Don't worry, you did great! You hit the really important points, and you were clear and logical. :) :)

What is pwning?

This is from urban dictionary (found by googling the term in question): pwning noobs

The act of totally and utterly defeating new players in a game, usually a video-game. To beat a new player so badly that that person no longer wants to participate in playing that particular game, for fear of being pwned again.

"I was totally pwning noobs last night online on Call of Duty 4"

buy pwning noobs mugs & shirts

beat down destroy annihalate defeat embarassment

by Patrick Robichaud Jun 16, 2008

substitute "noobs" for anything you have pwned

[SunnyAndrsn]

TLC stand idly by? Two words: Kate Gosselin

[Boogalou]

Here is a good definition of pwning as well, also from urban dicionary:

PWN (verb)

1. An act of dominating an opponent.

2. Great, ingenious; applied to methods and objects.

Originally dates back to the days of WarCraft, when a map designer mispelled "Own" as "Pwn". What was originally supose to be "player has been owned." was "player has been pwned".

Pwn eventually grew from there and is now used throughout the online world, especially in online games

[Guest Anonymous]

Regarding blanket training... I won't pretend to know how the Duggars do it, but blanket training does not automatically equal child abuse. My niece has done this with her four kids and she is as far from abusive as a parent can get. She did it by making it a game and making it fun, and starting out by having them on the blanket for very small periods of time. They were encouraged and praised and would often bring the blanket to their mom when they wanted blanket time. I just know that in a group setting her kids will sit and play quietly while all the other ankle biters are whining, crying, fighting, and acting like holy terrors. She doesn't believe in spanking, threatening or scaring her children so I know that blanket training can be done quite effectively without any form of hitting or spanking and without traumatizing the child.

[Buzzard]

Regarding blanket training... I won't pretend to know how the Duggars do it, but blanket training does not automatically equal child abuse. My niece has done this with her four kids and she is as far from abusive as a parent can get. She did it by making it a game and making it fun, and starting out by having them on the blanket for very small periods of time. They were encouraged and praised and would often bring the blanket to their mom when they wanted blanket time. I just know that in a group setting her kids will sit and play quietly while all the other ankle biters are whining, crying, fighting, and acting like holy terrors. She doesn't believe in spanking, threatening or scaring her children so I know that blanket training can be done quite effectively without any form of hitting or spanking and without traumatizing the child.

Thats true, but it take a lot of time and effort. You teach the child its a good place the same way that you teach a dog to go to his spot/crate/bed etc. I taught my dog by giving him treats... Now he knows thats his place and he goes there when he wants to be alone. Regardless, teaching a dog or child through positive reinforcement takes effort and attention, two things J'chelle doesnt have.

[pixydust]

Thank you, Canticle for standing up for those kids. You did a great job! :clap:

[lilwriter85]

You did a good job by countering the Duggar defender.

[ChunkyBarbie]

Regarding blanket training... I won't pretend to know how the Duggars do it, but blanket training does not automatically equal child abuse. My niece has done this with her four kids and she is as far from abusive as a parent can get. She did it by making it a game and making it fun, and starting out by having them on the blanket for very small periods of time. They were encouraged and praised and would often bring the blanket to their mom when they wanted blanket time. I just know that in a group setting her kids will sit and play quietly while all the other ankle biters are whining, crying, fighting, and acting like holy terrors. She doesn't believe in spanking, threatening or scaring her children so I know that blanket training can be done quite effectively without any form of hitting or spanking and without traumatizing the child.

However,why would Michelle need or recommend a ruler to blanket train? Thwack!

[emmiedahl]

I don't know about anybody else's babies, but the only way that mine would be "trained" to stay on a blanket is if they were afraid to leave it. And if a parent is the one doing the training, I assume that they are the ones producing the fear.

I must be missing some crucial element of blanket training, because my 1 year old roams the house and I don't see the problem. He pulls out some Tupperware, but it's not a big deal.

[gustava]

canticle, stay strong and listen to emmiedahl.

[Kitty]

I don't know about anybody else's babies, but the only way that mine would be "trained" to stay on a blanket is if they were afraid to leave it. And if a parent is the one doing the training, I assume that they are the ones producing the fear.

I must be missing some crucial element of blanket training, because my 1 year old roams the house and I don't see the problem. He pulls out some Tupperware, but it's not a big deal.

Well, you are missing a crucial element: the goal of trying to keep the kid on a blanket! :lol:

[pixydust]

Emmie, I don't get it either. My babies played on blankets, but mainly because it was cleaner than the carpet could be (I can throw the blankets in the washing machine), but once they began crawling it was pointless and they followed me around like little puppies, playing wherever I happened to be in the house. It was fine, they're safe that way. What is so magical about them staying on the blanket all day?

[Mythicwings]

Canticle, you gave that person so many very concise and on-the-point links, you DID pwn that person! :D Has he or she responded yet? At least even if you're fearful of the response, you can post it here for emotional support! PLease post a response anyway!!! :lol:

Thats true, but it take a lot of time and effort. You teach the child its a good place the same way that you teach a dog to go to his spot/crate/bed etc. I taught my dog by giving him treats... Now he knows thats his place and he goes there when he wants to be alone.

This is totally OT Buzzard but - on Halloween, my cousin posted what a bad night that is for anyone whose dog has been trained to respond to the word "treat" :lol: :lol: Every time kids came to the door, her dog, Maggie, would run over, wait for the kids to get their treat, then run to her spot to get HER treat!! :lol: It was so funny!

[Jessica]

Please feel free to refer her to these threads:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4756

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4828

[CanticleoftheTurning]

Thanks so much everybody! I feel much better about my response now--I often fear accidentally straying into illogical arguments, let alone stirring up flamewars. If the FJers think my argument was concise and hit the main points, then that's a good sign I'm doing alright, :lol:

No, the lady hasn't responded to me yet--neither has the person who originally posted a link to a blog post defending the Duggars' right to procreate. I specifically did not want to get into the whole procreation debate and wanted to focus on the abuse. But if they or anyone else does has the urge to respond, I will certainly keep you guys updated. I wonder what kind of spin they could put on my response to still defend the Duggars....Whatever it is, it'll be snarkworthy.

I owe the info and the courage to the FJ community :)

[Buzzard]

This is totally OT Buzzard but - on Halloween, my cousin posted what a bad night that is for anyone whose dog has been trained to respond to the word "treat" :lol: :lol: Every time kids came to the door, her dog, Maggie, would run over, wait for the kids to get their treat, then run to her spot to get HER treat!! :lol: It was so funny!

Awwwww! See, dogs CAN train humans!

[apple1]

... in a group setting her kids will sit and play quietly while all the other ankle biters are whining, crying, fighting, and acting like holy terrors.

False premise. (All?)

False dichotomy. (Either/or)

[LeatherCouch]

Emmie, I don't get it either. My babies played on blankets, but mainly because it was cleaner than the carpet could be (I can throw the blankets in the washing machine), but once they began crawling it was pointless and they followed me around like little puppies, playing wherever I happened to be in the house. It was fine, they're safe that way. What is so magical about them staying on the blanket all day?

The magical part is that you can ignore them for long stretches of time and no matter how bored they get they will still sit on the blanket, scared to death to move off of it.

[thoughtful]

Thats true, but it take a lot of time and effort. You teach the child its a good place the same way that you teach a dog to go to his spot/crate/bed etc. I taught my dog by giving him treats... Now he knows thats his place and he goes there when he wants to be alone. Regardless, teaching a dog or child through positive reinforcement takes effort and attention, two things J'chelle doesnt have.

Defining space with a rug or blanket is a fine idea -- Montessori schools use rugs so kids can work on the floor without getting into each other's space.

And I know there is a kindly version of blanket training.

I just have a hard time imagining that's what the Duggars did. I think they are Pearl-loving wooden-spoon wielders.

[thoughtful]

Thank you, Canticle for standing up for those kids. You did a great job! :clap:

Cheering for Canticle:

:banana-dreads: :banana-tux: