Muslim fundies banned

[JesusFightClub]

Not sure what you guys think of this, but...

 

Sorry, phone so no linkage, but there's sort of a Muslim version of Westboro Baptist here called Muslims Against Crusades. They have a lot of grudges against, well, everyone, and they're the ones you will see holding up the signs which say stuff like "Behead all those who oppose Islam" and the like. They also do stuff like hand out leaflets about how great the 9/11 hijackers were and randomly put up stickers declaring Sharia law (strangely enough, this didn't work ;)) Anyway, they decided they wanted to burn a big paper poppy this year on Remembrance Day, as they had done before, and the gov't got fed up and dropped the banhammer. Membership in the org. is now punishable by prison time and the demo is forbidden. The BBC has the full story.

 

To be honest, I am unhappy about this. I think that is an excessive response with bad implications. Granted MAC are an unpleasant lot, and burning a poppy is totally daft. But there are about fifty of them, most Muslims think they are idiots, and they are relentless self publicists, not terrorists. I imagine real terrorists would reckon they were pretty pathetic.

 

Every time they get banned they change their name and reappear, and look more glamorous rather than the collection of rather sad men they are. Also, should they not have a right to say their thought without the State picking and choosing who gets to say what? Proper antifa don't petition the State to ban being a fascist, we sort stuff out ourselves.

 

Granted, the coppers do not like you setting fire to stuff in public. I have observed this ("see if you do that we'll arrest you for inciting a riot") . And there are public safety issues. But there always are with protests, should no one protest then.and to say someone should face jail time for basically having an unpopular opinion is shit. Who decides?

 

Also they were banned for glorifying terrorism which is an offence here. So who decides, again, what is terrorism? And what glorifying?

 

FJ thoughts? (Since MAC are fundies I put it here).

[emmiedahl]

It's hard to say. In the US, I would be very upset that their right to free speech was being impinged on, and also conflicted because they apparently want me to die. On the other hand, some of that qualifies as hate speech and the kind of thing that Homeland Security should at least monitor.

I am not aware of UK laws, except that they are stricter than ours. Do you think that a Christian group like WBC would be punished to the same extent in the UK? If so, this is probably fair at least, even if the American in me bristles a bit.

[Goyangi]

I guess my American brain doesn't comprehend because I find it odd, too. People think all sorts of whackadoodle stuff, people write whackadoodle stuff on signs, and hand out flyers about whackadoodle stuff, too. Until all this whackadoodle stuff leads to criminal behavior then, so what? Damn, if I had the ability to make people think certain ways, I'd patent the hell out of the method but, for now, you just can't police people's thoughts. Plus, what good does banning membership do? Again, there are all sorts of groups I'd love to ban the hell out, but so what? It's not like, say I ban the NRA and suddenly all the gun owners in the US are going to be all "Goyangi banned our organization, I guess we're wrong about the Second Amendment. Let's get rid of our guns and learn how to knit."

[Elle]

I don't believe freedom of speech and religion should extend to actively promoting the harm of others, but all banning does it force these people underground, and that's dangerous.

[Vex]

I don't believe freedom of speech and religion should extend to actively promoting the harm of others, but all banning does it force these people underground, and that's dangerous.

I completely agree. I think the threat levels of these groups need to be examinined independantly and not in the context of religion. By that, I mean, if they have signs saying '-insert minority- should die', then it shouldn't matter if they're Christian, Muslim, Satanists or Civil War reenactors. Their treatment should be the same.

[mirele]

I'm American, so I would say that unless they're actively (and I do mean actively) promoting or working on violence, this type of a ban would not work here. However, I do read the Guardian and this fella Anjem Choudary knows what he's doing, and I don't mean in a good way. While I'd say that I think he's just an attention whore (hope you read that Anjem, you are an attention whore), I can understand why the Home Office would ban his group. But, as I said, wouldn't fly here.

(Let me just say that again: Anjem, you're an attention whore! Love & kisses, mirele)

[Rachel333]

Hmm, I don't know. On its own, I don't think burning a poppy would deserve that, but they're pretty horrible otherwise. Commending the 9/11 guys is way worse than the WBC. The WBC just say people should die (this is, clearly, ridiculously terrible), not applaud mass murderers. That does sound like glorifying terrorism to me, though it's not the same as actually being terrorist. Not sure about this.

[YPestis]

I consider a big first amendment supporter. I believe in free speech as long as it doesn't incite or advocate violence against other humans. In the US, unpopular speech is still allowed as long it doesn't advocate violence. There are other stipulations as well although I don't know the legalese. I know that some European countries are more strict about these things but free speech is an area that I find the US are more liberal than their European counterpart on.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Commending the 9/11 guys is way worse than the WBC. The WBC just say people should die (this is, clearly, ridiculously terrible), not applaud mass murderers. .

Uh...

[Rachel333]

Okay, not way worse, but I do see a difference.

Basically, though, both are terrible.

[annalena]

Uh...

Uh! Westboro baptist church! Haven't they been quiet in almost too long :shifty:

[JesusFightClub]

I'm American, so I would say that unless they're actively (and I do mean actively) promoting or working on violence, this type of a ban would not work here. However, I do read the Guardian and this fella Anjem Choudary knows what he's doing, and I don't mean in a good way. While I'd say that I think he's just an attention whore (hope you read that Anjem, you are an attention whore), I can understand why the Home Office would ban his group. But, as I said, wouldn't fly here.

(Let me just say that again: Anjem, you're an attention whore! Love & kisses, mirele)

S'right, Choudhary and his not so merry men. I doubt he reads Free Jinger (though it would be extremely amusing if he did ;) I was going to say the fundies might give him ideas but I reckon he's got the full set anyway.) However, just in case, I second you. Anjem, you are an attention whore! Sort yourself out, pal.

I've even wondered before if he is State ;)

[JesusFightClub]

Okay, not way worse, but I do see a difference.

Basically, though, both are terrible.

I can't see the difference. MAC's leaflet, as I recall, was something like "commemorate the glorious martyrs of 9/11" There's a sign there saying "Thank God for 9/11" seems roughly on a par?

However I don't know if WBC ever threaten their own wrath or just God's?

[JesusFightClub]

It's hard to say. In the US, I would be very upset that their right to free speech was being impinged on, and also conflicted because they apparently want me to die. On the other hand, some of that qualifies as hate speech and the kind of thing that Homeland Security should at least monitor.

I am not aware of UK laws, except that they are stricter than ours. Do you think that a Christian group like WBC would be punished to the same extent in the UK? If so, this is probably fair at least, even if the American in me bristles a bit.

As I recall, key figures in WBC are banned from entry into the UK. So I guess they might, but I am not sure...

I don't like "glorifying terrorism" as a crime. You can hear pro IRA songs sung at a football club in some sections of the stands. I don't see the team getting banned for that, or the club.

I know a wide selection of revolutionary songs and chants, so if I sing them I might be committing a crime? Or what if I say Nelson Mandela is a great guy? Or wear a Che tshirt? Or if I sing that song (which has references to "blowing the Brits away"?)

It is true we don't have free speech laws like you do but some of our laws are just being enforced ridiculously now IMO.

Policing is super political nowadays...

[Sola]

It's hard to say. In the US, I would be very upset that their right to free speech was being impinged on, and also conflicted because they apparently want me to die. On the other hand, some of that qualifies as hate speech and the kind of thing that Homeland Security should at least monitor.

I am not aware of UK laws, except that they are stricter than ours. Do you think that a Christian group like WBC would be punished to the same extent in the UK? If so, this is probably fair at least, even if the American in me bristles a bit.

Yes they would. WBC tried to come over here the other year and were immediately slapped with the banhammer preventing them from coming into the country.

Technically we don't have free speech laws like you have in the USA. But for the most part it doesn't affect us. We have the right to protest as long as we don't incite violence, which is what MAC were doing. That is why they got the banhammer. Mostly we can say what we want - blimey you should see how our comedians take the piss out of the powers that be here - but when we start calling for the death of people, then it's gone too far and the law steps in.

I agree with the ban of these people. There are too many disenfranchised teens over here who would susceptible to the bullshit that the MAC were spouting. Free speech is all very well, but when it starts calling for the deaths of people, then it's time to curtail it IMHO.

[Constance Vigilance]

I don't like "glorifying terrorism" as a crime. You can hear pro IRA songs sung at a football club in some sections of the stands. I don't see the team getting banned for that, or the club.

I don't know how I feel about the MAC ban either (though my initial feeling was that I don't like it), but they are cracking down on people singing sectarian songs at football matches -- it's a huge deal at the moment, fines and whatnot.

*ETA I suppose it depends what you define as "pro-IRA songs" as well. Like, Fields of Athenrye with normal verse/chorus -- fine. Fields of Athenrye with "up the RA/fuck the Queen" additions = sectarian (or that's how I would see it).

[Rachel333]

I can't see the difference. MAC's leaflet, as I recall, was something like "commemorate the glorious martyrs of 9/11" There's a sign there saying "Thank God for 9/11" seems roughly on a par?

However I don't know if WBC ever threaten their own wrath or just God's?

I guess it's "We're glad these people died" vs "We're glad these people killed these people." Believing God is a mass murderer and being glad thousands of people are dead is pretty sick, but they're not calling for someone to go kill people. To me it's a lot more dangerous to celebrate the people who killed people for God than to celebrate a God who kills people.

[LynnKaboom]

S'right, Choudhary and his not so merry men. I doubt he reads Free Jinger (though it would be extremely amusing if he did ;) I was going to say the fundies might give him ideas but I reckon he's got the full set anyway.) However, just in case, I second you. Anjem, you are an attention whore! Sort yourself out, pal.

I've even wondered before if he is State ;)

State? I get the feeling this is specialized terminology that you've probably explained before, but I can't remember what it means, and I kind of doubt that you mean state in the way that Americans think of it...

But yeah, while banning speech doesn't sit well with me as a supporter of free speech, it is the UK's jurisdiction, and he could potentially be dangerous- we do ban people from inciting violence here (saying "Go kill X" is not protected speech, or at least isn't totally protected- there are ways you would get in trouble for that).

[Nomorearrows]

But there are about fifty of them, most Muslims think they are idiots, and they are relentless self publicists,

I totally agree, JesusFightClub. As a Muslim it's embarrassing that some people are glorifying terrorists and spreading hate. It's frustrating to me when there is a Muslim who advocates hate because some people are narrow-minded that they believe that these people and others like them represent Islam when that isn't the case.