Duggar/NGJ/TTUAC Links Please!

[farmwifegina]

Hi all, I'm new here. I've been lurking forever, never really intended to join, but here I am. Mostly because I'm aghast at the amount of Duggar love on Birth Without Fear's FB page and because Mrs. BWF is demanding links to prove that the Duggars use such child training methods as blanket training and TTUAC, saying that people are just haters and making things up. I am not internet savvy enough to find their old website where, IIRC, they linked to NGJ or recommended TTUAC, but I know there are smart people here. Help? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

[Jessica]

If you go to the Wayback Machine and look at their site from the earliest days there's a section where Michelle talks about it very vaguely with the younger twins.

Edit (2nd time) nevermind, the poster below me found it!

[grateful1230]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_training

that link is a direct quote from one of the Duggars books, Eleventyzillion kids and counting - describes their blanket training skillz

duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz

the above shows that nogreaterjoy is selling their book (as is every other crayzay fundie site) for 25% off - ad even talks about TTUAC

web.archive.org/web/20050706053955/http://duggarfamily.com/

i'm not sure which old website for the duggars that you are looking for. This is from 2005, and still has all of the links for Vision Forum, ATI, etc

[Brainsample]

Here's the direct link to the "blanket time" post, but you can verify from the Gothard Discussion list and those who have left ATI that Blanket Training was widely accepted and practiced within the group. I don't know that you could not find an ATI parent who participated in the moms' groups online that could deny that this "trick or treat technique" was not widely practiced and accepted. The Duggars follow ATI.

web.archive.org/web/20050706060125/http://duggarfamily.com/faq.html

There is also this ATI link that was copied from the Gothard Discussion list that was taken from an ATI private list and posted openly. I have heard that this is absolutely true, and I have also heard from people who left ATI and have no lost love for the grou that this post was altered before it went online on the Gothard Discussion. People who hate blanket training and Pearl who used to be a part of ATI attest that it was altered. I don't know what to think anymore, so use at your own risk.

<>

[Brainsample]

Long post, but this was also sent to me by the late co-founder of the Gothard Discussion list.

The current moderators could verify this info if needed.

From: metochoi

To: undermuchgrace@

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:52:40 PM

Subject: blanket training

Here is the info you seek. Let me know if there is anything else you need.

M

===================================

>>>Message: 4 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:12:06 EDT

From: CorrieJo@xxx.xxx Subject: Knoxville Mother's Panel

I have a question: Why, if this is a mother's panel, which means it is

for moms only is there this "Jim guy" interjecting in between the discussion?

I KNOW that at the father's panel meetings there is no woman there

monitoring their discussions and interjecting "wisdom". It reminds

me of the tea party, I have to admit. It seems that this man, Jim Voeller- director of ATI, was put there to keep things in order. Did

you all notice him in the other mother's panel discussions that I sent to you?

I am going to try and ask and see if I can't find out why this guy keeps on

appearing in the mother's panel notes. Also, this will get the blood boiling

of some of you moms. A LOT of spanking of babies is advocated.

>>>Friday Mothers' Panel Mary Craig Jerri Dee Flage Greer Llewellyn Lori Voeller

Greer-I have 9 children from 18 years to 11 months. We live in Rockville, Maryland.

I'm an exhorter. Jerri Dee-I'm a prophet married to an exhorter and my 6 children are

11 to 2 years and we're from Minneapolis. Mary-I live on South Campus Indy, I have

5 children from 23 to 10 and we work with alot of other children. Lori-I now live in

Oak Brook, we have 8 children our oldest is 22 and youngest 3. I'm an exhorter.

Q) We have 3 boys 12, 9, and 5 we've tried to come up with different projects for

them to do but we don't have many physical projects they can do. HOw can they

be service-oriented in their free time without constant supervision? Greer-Why don't

we have enough work? LOL> We began doing the things that we had asked others

to do, there are so many options. When I feel like our home is in good order, I love

to give our children Scripture verses to work on. We work on chapters rather than

verses, different books of the Bible.. Scripture memory with 3 X 5 cards. Also

Scriptures on audio tape. Listening to whole books on tape gives them the whole

context of the passage. Jim-Do you ever feel you have your children work too much?

Lori -- Lam. 3:27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke in his youth. Idle hands are

the devil's workshop. We are to train the children to work hard in their youth.

I believe a mother's real work force is between the ages of 6 and 13 so our children

are working very hard in our home in those ages. Beyond 13 they're still working

but they now need to be relieved of some of the routine duties so they can move

towards preparing themselves for their life calling. They also need the time now

to invest in their younger brothers and sisters. I think about the boys that have

nothing to do but play that the older ones should design projects to do with the

younger ones. Ex. If younger boy memorized 15 verses of PS 119, the older boy

would buy him a Bible cover. Mary-When my children were younger I did school in the

morning and work in the afternoon and then playtime. I would work while they played

but found I was irritable and grouchy from working too much. I realized this wasn't good

so When my youngest was 4 he washed all the dishes, sweep the kitchen and wipe the

table! We set a timer for 30 minutes and after awhile he was able to do it within the time

. Now that boy really loves to work! And now I really think it's important that if I'm

working that my children should also be working. Jeri Dee-One thing we've done to

help them stay on task is to figure out how long a particular job takes and then set a

timer. As adults we work toward a deadline all the time and we need to teach the children

to that. Another thing to really encourage them is to stand them before Daddy and praise

them. Greer-My husband went to West Point and has a lot of discipline. He has helped

me delegate chores to children that I would have thought were too young. We need to

fight the world's mindset that we must have playtime for our children. We should look

on things we can do as a family for God as our pleasure. Working on Scripture as a family

can be really fun though mom and dad are the slowest ones to memorize! Music can also

be a wonderful pastime-our afternoons are spent practicing our instruments. Jerri Dee-OUr

children dont' have much free time either. WE have found that our children are more

joyful when they are serving and working. OUr 7 and 11 year old have about an hour

to play in the afternoon. During that hour they do have to watch the little ones and play

with them also. We also take naps in the afternoon. I had heard once that a house ful of

7 or 8 year olds could run the entire household. Lori-Something that made an change in

our household that in colonial days children between the ages of 8 and 10 were encouraged

to turn away from playfulness but toward work. We are to do our work heartily unto the

Lord, not unto our pleasures (legos). We had a "play fast." IT was for one week and then

we tried it another week. So we've adopted the old-fashioned idea that children play on

Saturday afternoon only. Mary-Our children usually play after supper. I have all of them

working in the daytime. The older ones may go for a bike ride for 30 minutes or shoot baskets.

Jim-I am reminded of Webster's 1828 dictionary the definition of fun was merriment in the

work of the home? Q) What have youdone about computer or video games in your home?

Mary - LIfe is not about fun an dpleasure but about responsibility and serving others.

Greer-We started out with the excitement of having a cmputer in the classroom with good

things on it but one by one they were eliminated because our children would do their work

for computer time. EVen the math software would tempt them to rush through the things

they were supposed to so they could play and compete with each other. We decided to limit

the cmputer. We do use it for foreign language but we eliminated programs that were not the

best. God calls us to choose the best. I would just encourage you as you enjoy the tools that

God provides to also weigh carefully what the spirit is that is being produced. I found that

with the computer games it was more of a self-interest and self-focus. Jerri Dee-About 3

months ago my dh pulled the last computer game out of our computer and we haven't played

it since. The children would be so focused on getting to that game that they would do their

work too quickly just to get to it. It was non-productive. Q) Lori-We learned about spanking

babies. WE learned about disciplning a child with a rod at the age of 6 months, when the weeds

are very little we pluck them out. We use a 1/4 inch wooden dowel when they are 6 months.

If you ignore those weeds then by the time they are toddlers you have to do something drastic.

WE learned that if we started when they were babies, they were so much more obedient in

coming and sitting and being quiet. OUr goal was that they be able to sit quietly for 2 hours

on Sunday morning. Now it has been a joy. I have learned that just one whack on a baby's

bottom is not enough, it is 5 or 6 whacks. I found I was spankiing my children a whole lot

less when I did it right the first time. Jim-You get more fruit by spanking very young and not

having to do it so hard. Mary-I have spanked a little one-PRov. 13:24 "chasten your son betimes"

and the word betimes means from the womb from the dawn. The idea is to be very alert right

from the beginning what is needful of a spanking. Jim-What is the answer for getting a child to

go to bed at night? Jerri Dee-You could always try chocolate chips! LOL. On my first baby I

didn't have a clue and she wouldnt' go down and I'd be so frustrated and angry. By my fifth

child someone taught me how to train my child to put her head down from 3 or 4 weeks old,

I encourage them with the tone of my voice.. At around 6 months I would get down and look

through the crib bars with them and smile at them and say, "heady down, heady down" and

I would wait to see if they would lay down and if I noticed their head coming up I would switch

them on the bottom and say, "heady down." I woulud try to give them the sense of my

omnipresence by sneaking away and then checking on them when they thought I wasn't

looking. Mary-In Moscow we had delinquent boys, liars, it was very very difficult. We

wondered what we were going to do and they were all in the same room. There was one extra

bed where someone could lay in there with them all night. At first we couldn't even spank

them at all, we told them what the standard was and that once the light switched off there

was to be no more talking. We told them what the consequence would be if they didn't do this-

they would received dried oats for breakfast with a little water but it was less preferable than

the cooked cereal they usually had. This caused them to not want to repeat the experience.

We didn't have to do a lot of work but we would just say "this is the consequence." A parent

needs to have some time, it is Scriptural, so whenever the chosen bedtime is you are in control

and it's really important that we must not let them control us but that God wants us to be

controlling them. Jim-Do you ever use food as a motivator for your children? Greer-We

take to heart the verse that says, "he that will not work shall not eat" The youngest that

we have done this with was 4 and he had to take out the trash in the house. He would get

distracted though and start to play.. I was encouraged by that Scripture to take away his meal

when he would do this and the result was excellent. He has had to repeat that several times.

Some children just need more monitoring and a "short leash" and he was one. This really

sweetened his spirit. We staretd with the older ones and gradually worked our way down.

NOw they have hearts that are open and want to be instructed. Jim-ONe of our sons complained

about eating soup the third time in a row and Lori just took the soup away and said, "wel, then

you don't eat today." This boy never complained about food again. Lori -- (on blanket training

) I Cor. 14:40 "let all things be done decently and in order" and I remember one day trying to teach

the CCC and getting alot of distractions and I just began to cry. I cried out to the Lord and I think

blankiet training is just a lifesaver for a homeschooling family. I had gotten some training on how

to teach a baby not to touch a plant so I wondered if I could teach a baby to sit on a blanket and

not touch the carpet. So at about 6 months I put them on the blanket and I am there with a paint

paddle and when the baby touches the carpet I spank the hand. First I go around the carpet and

spank the carpet on all four sides and say, "no touch, no touch." This spanking just gives content

to my words. This whole process is done so speedily---I have the baby on the blanket, the 2 1/2

year old on the blanket and I can teach in peace. WE've even gone to dinner parties and put the

child on the blanket and it's like there is a 10 foot wall around that blanket! When I met Jerri Dee,

her baby was all over the place, but JErri DEe gave her blanket training. When Jerri Dee came to

visit me later her baby sat on the blanket and let us talk for 1 1/2 hours and did not make a sound

that entire time. Jerri Dee-They are not unhappy on the blanket. Everyone's spirit is so free and

so happy because there is order. When Mommy is upset and fretful that is much worse. Q) How

can I stop my children from tattle-taling? They delight in telling each other's faults? Mary-I think

it's really important when this happens to first of all ask, "What did YOU do?" Before you get all

involved int eh situation, it's really good to hear both sides of the story. If you have a situation in

your home where you get more irritated with one child more than the rest, the other children will

pick up on that and take advantage of it. Go and hear the whole story. I woudl encourage the child

who came to tell that if there really was something wrong, to be a leader and go back and appeal to

the other child. It's always good to find out what is the basic issue-why is this child telling? Get to

the heart of the issue. Q) What do we do if an older son or daughter wants nothing to do with the

rest of the family and looks to his friends for answers? Greer-first I want to add a comment on the

tattletaling. We are instructed in Matt. 18 that when we are offended to go to that brother. We need

to encourage our children to be mature and go to that brother and be restored. The first thing I

ask when a tattler comes is "Did you go to that child and try to work it out first?" One other little

key in this that it is so much easier to receive correction in private, so I will encourage them to

work things out privately not publicly. Lori-Scripture says that we are not to rejoice in

unrighteousness but to rejoice in righteousness. One wonderful project in the WB was to

present character awards. The children would have lists of character traits and they would

pick ones that they could praise each other for. At dinner Dad would shout out "I have an

announcement to make" and the child would be given an opportunity to praise another for character

. Another thing that we have just recently started doing-Eph. 4:28 says let him that steals steal no

longer but let him labor with his own hands what is good that he may have to share with him that

needs" For any unpleasant act that the children do like bickering or criticizing, etc. we don't just

let them apologzie but they have to write a written letter of character praise for the other child, and

go and ask forgiveness. They also have to do chores for the other child. Back to last question regarding

older child who prefers friends: Jerri Dee - A wise older mom gave me the word that it's ok for our

children to just play with each other and that they dont' need to play with other children in the

neighborhood. This has gone on for over 4 years and they have learned to love each other this way.

Mary-I think it's also important to remember that if the child is acting that way to ask yourself,

"Why don't they want to be here? Is there something missing? Is there a poor relationship (betwseen

dad and mom, etc.) It's not really right for us to force them to do things when inside they are hurting.

Help the children to see that the family is the most important relationship to work on. If we say to

one part of our body like the toe that we don't need it, then the body cannot function properly.

Greer-I think of Psalm 1. We read a biography of G. Washington and his mom said that no friends

are better than bad friends. Being alone can sometimes even allow a child to cry out to the Lord.

WE found that when ours were going through teh ages of 11 12 especially, they were divurging

from their peers rather radically, even other Christian peers. Now my oldest girls will tell me that

I'm their best friend and that is because we didn't compromise-there were seasons that they didn't

do things with friends. Sometimes our relationships with people can crowd out God. Alone times

are not necessarily bad times. God can use these lonely times to sharpen our convictions. The Lord

has only given us one or two families over the years that we can really be close with. Jim-if your

children's hearts are being drawn away from the parents then you know they have wrong friends

in their life. We are training our children that their best friends are in teh home-the ones they will

know for the rest of their lives. Mary -0- I think also that the Lord had a special design for your

child if He has never brought a friend into the life of that child. Maybe He knows that they will

be in a place where they will need to depend only on the Lord. Now my daughter who has never

had many friends is more prepared to depend on the Lord. Lori-I think it is very important that

brothers and sisters learn to be friends. It doesn't always come natural but I believe that God is

glorified when there is unity in the family. One person said to us that there is no sermon in the

world that speaks louder han a Christian family that ihas harmony. The Lord gave me a project

for my 2 and 4 year olds who wanted nothing to do with each other. One day I took them aside

and said, to the four year old, "You're a leader, and the mark of a leader is being a gentle servant."

Then I went to our 2 year old and ssaid, "You're under auhority and you need to be respectful."

Q) How can I overcome the irritation I have against my children? Jerri Dee-Once the irritation had

grown so great even though I had asked the child for forgiveness I would go on with the discipline.

Time plus consistency equals change. It was a long process but over time God has given sweet fruit

. Mary-what helped me was to ask myself why am I so irritated. What right was I feeling was being

violated? I was holding on to doing what I wanted to do, I wasn't caring about their disobedience

as much as my irritation. God showed me that the most important thing was helping my children

to obey and not what I wanted to do. I think that usually there is something that we won't deal

with and that is what is making us irritated. We might get irritated, then the next time we yell,

but we avoid dealing with things until it gets to the point where we blow up. If we are irritated,

we have trained our children to be an irritant. We have to retrain our children. The same steps

that Lori mentioned about the baby training apply to an older child. My son every morning would

always turn the cups from breakfast upside down as he carried them from the table. So I sat down

with him and said, "you need to keep the cups upright as you go to the sink." And I told him that

there would be consequences of disobedience and that there's always rewards for obedience. So

the next morning when he did it again I made him clear the whole table. The next morning he did

it again, and he cleared the whole table and washed all the dishes. If he had done it again, then I

would have had him do those things and also given him a spanking for rebellion because he kept

doing it again and again. Lori-I would like to add that there's two things that the Lord has given

me to conquer anger. One thing was to make sure that my child understood, really clearly. Four

ponits of obedience is to obey cheerfully, immediately, unconditionally, and completely. If they

do not obey all four of these points, then that is clearly disobedience and they know that. We do

alot of role-playing and also we had a "salute" day where each child saluted and said, "yes, ma'am"

everytime I asked them to do. They would also have the children salute and say, "I'd be glad to."

Put music in your voice when you ask your children to do things. (and smile!) end<<

[farmwifegina]

Thank you so much! The Gothard Discussion link isn't working, but I posted the Amazon Blitz link.

[Kaylee]

Thank you so much! The Gothard Discussion link isn't working, but I posted the Amazon Blitz link.

and if they try to say that's just one link in a list of books, the contact person for the promotion listed there is the Pearl's business manager.

[Brainsample]

Try this other link. It is likely the same thing that is in that email from the Gothard Discussion group that someone else either copied from there or posted independently. (I haven't tried to compare them.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... id=4174772

Duh! I just went and checked it -- it is copied from the Gothard List. But if anyone ever has need, I can put people in contact with the person who originally posted this (a co-founder of the Gothard Discussion yahoo group). She has agreed to speak with the press to verify it (as I tried to get interest in this in the press when Lydia Schatz died).

[terranova]

Hi all, I'm new here. I've been lurking forever, never really intended to join, but here I am. Mostly because I'm aghast at the amount of Duggar love on Birth Without Fear's FB page and because Mrs. BWF is demanding links to prove that the Duggars use such child training methods as blanket training and TTUAC, saying that people are just haters and making things up. I am not internet savvy enough to find their old website where, IIRC, they linked to NGJ or recommended TTUAC, but I know there are smart people here. Help? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

I with you on that. I find it HUGELY ironic that someone who advocates choice for women in regards to their bodies such as Mrs. BWF does, would also advocate a lifestyle that trains girls at a young age to give away their choices and their rights to men. I've learned a lot from that community but this issue is making me question my participation.

[pfamilygal]

I find it ironic that they like to an anti-slavery group on that discount page. Poor j-slaves.