Teen Mania/Cult Detox show on MSNBC Sun, Nov 6th

[notsocommon]

I don't see how people 'graduate.' I would have said FTS on the first day!

No way would they have been able to get me to eat something like bugs and foul food. My own mother was never successful in getting me to eat something I did not want to eat. I just do not get how all this gets tied into Christianity and how so many are so easily sucked in. Sleeping on the pavement? Jumping in ice water? crawling trough tight spaces?

I guess this is why I am here at FJ, to try to learn how people buy into the insanity.

[thoughtful]

They've discussed how members were used as slave labor (well, even worse, actually, since they were paying to attend!) to recruit more people, and that Teen Mania makes millions.

A group of former members are discussing it with some experts on thought reform (Doug and Wendy Duncan), who are analyzing it for fitting the Lifton mold, item by item.

Sorry if my sort-of live-blogging is annoying -- I know I won't remember if I don't get it down right away. The TeenManiaWatch people are actually live-blogging it, here:

http://teenmaniawatch.blogspot.com/

ETA - the Lifton list:

http://changingminds.org/techniques/con ... reform.htm

[notsocommon]

What book are the thought reform points from? I can't see that small print on my TV

[thoughtful]

What book are the thought reform points from? I can't see that small print on my TV

Robert Jay Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, W.W. Norton & Co., Inc., 1963.

They are:

Milieu control

All communication with outside world is limited, either being strictly filtered or completely cut off. Whether it is a monastery or a behind-closed-doors cult, isolation from the ideas, examples and distractions of the outside world turns the individuals attention to the only remaining form of stimulation, which is the ideology that is being inculcated in them.

This even works at the intrapersonal level, and individuals are discouraged from thinking incorrect thoughts, which may be termed evil, selfish, immoral and so on.

Mystical manipulation

A part of the teaching is that the group has a higher purpose than others outside the group. This may be altruistic, such as saving the world or helping people in need. It may also be selfish, for example that group members will be saved when others outside the group will perish.

All things are then attributed and linked to this higher purpose. Coincidences (which actually may be deliberately engineered) are portrayed as symbolic events. Attention is given to the problems of out-group people and attributed to their not being in the group. Revelations are attributed to spiritual causes.

This association of events is used as evidence that the group truly is special and exclusive.

Confession

Individuals are encouraged to confess past 'sins' (as defined by the group). This creates a tension between the person's actions and their stated belief that the action is bad, particularly if the statement is made publicly. The consistency principle thus leads the person to fully adopt the belief that the sin is bad and to distance themselves from repeating it.

Discussion of inner fears and anxieties, as well as confessing sins is exposing vulnerabilities and requires the person to place trust in the group and hence bond with them. When we bond with others, they become our friends, and we will tend to adopt their beliefs more easily.

This effect may be exaggerated with intense sessions where deep thoughts and feelings are regularly surfaced. This also has the effect of exhausting people, making them more open to suggestion.

Self-sanctification through purity

Individuals are encouraged to constantly push towards an ultimate and unattainable perfection. This may be rewarded with promotion within the group to higher levels, for example by giving them a new status name (acolyte, traveller, master, etc.) or by giving them new authority within the group.

The unattainability of the ultimate perfection is used to induce guilt and show the person to be sinful and hence sustain the requirement for confession and obedience to those higher than them in the groups order of perfection.

Not being perfect may be seen as deserving of punishment, which may be meted out by the higher members of the group or even by the person themselves, who are taught that such atonement and self-flagellation is a valuable method of reaching higher levels of perfection.

Aura of sacred science

The beliefs and regulations of the group are framed as perfect, absolute and non-negotiable. The dogma of the group is presented as scientifically correct or otherwise unquestionable.

Rules and processes are therefore to be followed without question, and any transgression is a sin and hence requires atonement or other forms of punishment, as does consideration of any alternative viewpoints.

Loaded language

New words and language are created to explain the new and profound meanings that have been discovered. Existing words are also hijacked and given new and different meaning.

This is particularly effective due to the way we think a lot though language. The consequence of this is that the person who controls the meaning of words also controls how people think. In this way, black-and-white thinking is embedded in the language, such that wrong-doers are framed as terrible and evil, whilst those who do right (as defined by the group) are perfect and marvellous.

The meaning of words are kept hidden both from the outside world, giving a sense of exclusivity. The meaning of special words may also be revealed in careful illuminatory rituals, where people who are being elevated within the order are given the power of understanding this new language.

Doctrine over person

The importance of the group is elevated over the importance of the individual in all ways. Along with this comes the importance of the the group's ideas and rules over personal beliefs and values.

Past experiences, beliefs and values can all thus be cast as being invalid if they conflict with group rules. In fact this conflict can be used as a reason for confession of sins. Likewise, the beliefs, values and words of those outside the group are equally invalid.

Dispensed existence

There is a very sharp line between the group and the outside world. Insiders are to be saved and elevated, whilst outsiders are doomed to failure and loss (which may be eternal).

Who is an outsider or insider is chosen by the group. Thus, any person within the group may be damned at any time. There are no rights of membership except, perhaps, for the leader.

People who leave the group are singled out as particularly evil, weak, lost or otherwise to be despised or pitied. Rather than being ignored or hidden, they are used as examples of how anyone who leaves will be looked down upon and publicly denigrated.

People thus have a constant fear of being cast out, and consequently work hard to be accepted and not be ejected from the group. Outsiders who try to persuade the person to leave are doubly feared.

Dispensation also goes into all aspects of living within the group. Any and all aspects of existence within the group is subject to scrutiny and control. There is no privacy and, ultimately, no free will.

Edited to make headings clearer.

[notsocommon]

thank you!

[Brainsample]

Lifton was the psychiatrist who counseled the Korean POWs who were held in Chinese prison camps and were brainwashed. His list of eight techniques used have become the gold standard for qualifying the behavior of a high demand or ideological group (aka, cult or cultic).

This is what goes on in everything from Amway to Gothard to the Moonies. Human nature is basically predictable, and this is what generally always happens in manipulation of groups of people.

[Brainsample]

I didn't get to see it -- thanks so much for posting the link to that blog with the notes from the show.

I will try to find out if they do make it available online -- I can't even find it listed on the msnbc website at this point.

[thoughtful]

thank you!

You're welcome!

[thoughtful]

Link to contact MSNBC-tv (for feedback if you watched the show, to ask if it will be online, or re-broadcast, etc.):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10285339/

[thoughtful]

I didn't get to see it -- thanks so much for posting the link to that blog with the notes from the show.

You're welcome!

[LoganF]

Haha, dang... Seems like the interview was pretty one sided. Sadly, I wasn't able to watch it but from what I'm hearing they played clips from when it was starting out (and yes, I will say they did some stupid stuff at the beginning, but the supposedly abusive parts that I saw in the preview was all optional) and made it seem like it was ESOAL (now called PEARL one of the optional activities there) 24/7. I was an intern from 2008 - 2009. If any of you would like to ask me any questions about what went on, or what I thought about it then feel free to do so. I do know that it is completely different now than it was back when the videos that I saw were filmed. And by the way, they never made me eat anything that I wasn't okay with. No bugs or gross food like they showed.

Btw... How to I edit the little thing above where my avatar is supposed to be that says "You're all going to hell"? lol

[Guest Anonymous]

Btw... How to I edit the little thing above where my avatar is supposed to be that says "You're all going to hell"? lol

It's a subnick that's linked to your post count. It will change when you hit 10 posts if you stick around that long.

[LoganF]

Sweet, thanks for letting me know!

[thoughtful]

http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/09 ... esoal.html

http://www.tylerpaper.com/article/20111 ... /111109887

I had never heard of Teen Mania before tonight, so I'm just learning.

I will try to find more information on this, but, so far, I'm not convinced that the (ironically-named?) PEARL is all that different from ESOAL.

Even if it's generally gentler, there's still a lot about the big picture of Teen Mania that I find distasteful and worrisome.

[dcmhejbl62]

On my iPad, so I'm not sure I can adequately describe the program tonight, but my heart hurts for all those involved in the Honor Academy.

The ESOL, crosswalks part was just sick. Think of your worst fraternity hazing story, multiply it by 10, and add in a little spiritual abuse. Can't believe anyone can justify what this guy is selling; he is sadistic. Seriously wouldn't want to see what goes on in his brain.

Feel like I need a shower.

[pfamilygal]

Crap, I forgot to tape it.

Will it be on again?

[GoodbyeBlueMonday]

I just noticed this thread today. Wish I would have seen it earlier so I could have watched last night.

This made me remember being shown the promotional trailer for an Acquire the Fire conference at youth group when I was in high school. It seemed completely absurd to me, even though I was pretty devout at the time. My youth leader asked us if we'd be interested, and I wasn't sure if she was joking or not. It seemed like a really odd thing for our youth group to participate in, considering the calm, non-charismatic, non-frenetic nature of our church's services. Of course, we all basically just mocked the video, and one kid in particular who said that the hoped that "Jesus would blow his face off," or something to that effect.

I still kind of wonder if she was serious about us going, or if she was just curious about what our reaction would be. The trailer alone was as creepy as it was ridiculous.

Also, hi! This is my first post, but I've been lurking since June.

Edited to fix typos.

[atheistjd]

I just noticed this thread today. Wish I would have seen it earlier so I could have watched last night.

This made me remember being shown the promotional trailer for an Acquire the Fire conference at youth group when I was in high school. It seemed completely absurd to me, even though I was pretty devout at the time. My youth leader asked us if we'd be interested, and I wasn't sure if she was joking or not. It seemed like a really odd thing for our youth group to participate in, considering the calm, non-charismatic, non-frenetic nature of our church's services. Of course, we all basically just mocked the video, and one kid in particular who said that the hoped that "Jesus would blow his face off," or something to that effect.

I still kind of wonder if she was serious about us going, or if she was just curious about what our reaction would be. The trailer alone was as creepy as it was ridiculous.

Also, hi! This is my first post, but I've been lurking since June.

Edited to fix typos.

Grrr... also missed it and forgot to tape! If anyone happens to find it online or sees it rerunning let me know!

GBM - it is definitely creepy... I went to it a few times and had the misfortune to participate behind the scenes a few of those times (I wouldn't be surprised if I knew the kid who blew Jesus, I mean had Jesus blow his face off, I mean... wait, there is no non-ridiculous way to rephrase that, is there?). I was this close to going on a TM missions trip and definitely considered the Honors Academy. Thank the FSM I got out off there in time. Yeesh.

[Austin]

I just noticed this thread today. Wish I would have seen it earlier so I could have watched last night.

This made me remember being shown the promotional trailer for an Acquire the Fire conference at youth group when I was in high school. It seemed completely absurd to me, even though I was pretty devout at the time. My youth leader asked us if we'd be interested, and I wasn't sure if she was joking or not. It seemed like a really odd thing for our youth group to participate in, considering the calm, non-charismatic, non-frenetic nature of our church's services. Of course, we all basically just mocked the video, and one kid in particular who said that the hoped that "Jesus would blow his face off," or something to that effect.

I still kind of wonder if she was serious about us going, or if she was just curious about what our reaction would be. The trailer alone was as creepy as it was ridiculous.

Also, hi! This is my first post, but I've been lurking since June.

Edited to fix typos.

Welcome to FJ!

[atheistjd]

Welcome to FJ!

Oh yes - welcome! I've been feeling inhospitable lately and seem to have lost my manners somewhere amidst all the new trolls. GBM - glad to have you!

[GoodbyeBlueMonday]

Thanks atheistjd and Austin!

I'm really hoping I can stream this from somewhere. I've been reading about TM all day at work and I have to admit I'm fascinated (but, like, not in a good way).

[Brainsample]

IT's ONLINE! I haven't seen it yet. Just got the email

http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/11 ... ssion.html

[Amazon Woman]

IT's ONLINE! I haven't seen it yet. Just got the email

http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/11 ... ssion.html

Awesome! I went to ATF one year during my flirtation with Christianity and they tried to recruit me. I was getting phone calls months later and finally had to explain that my father had died suddenly and I was for the fortieth time not interested in going.

[Brainsample]

Waiting for the second half to buffer....

Early in the video, the guy who runs it said a familiar loaded language term that I heard in my own group: "Press into God." (What does that really mean? It is vague and can mean a host of things, depending on your particular group and how the group uses the term.)

I don't tend to get triggered anymore, dropping down into a fight or flight response as I once did, but I still find it a bit revolting to hear some of that kind of terminology.

Specialized language, the meaning of which is only understood by members of the group (or by members of these Bible-based cultic groups, an it bleeds over into the whole Christian subculture.

[finleeport]

IT's ONLINE! I haven't seen it yet. Just got the email

http://www.recoveringalumni.com/2011/11 ... ssion.html

Thank you Thank you so much.