Miss Raquel wrote a post about something I wrote here.

[Angri-la]

I would argue that message of marriage is "happy happy joy joy perfection" most pre-marrieds, especially fundies, receive. In pop culture, there is Disney, romantic comedies, diamond commercials, endless television shows about brides, dresses, wedding, novels: Most are wish-fulfillment ending in a wedding. I am not saying one shouldn't be cautiously optimistic, not everyone ends up with an unable to pray the gay away fundie, but it happens. The operative word here is cautious, which is not a word I was particularly concerned with when I was teen to divorce.

Personally, I prefer Anne Sexton's Cinderella story from Transformations, the Pulitzer Prize winning book of poems, which ends:

"Cinderella and the prince

lived, they say, happily ever after,

like two dolls in a museum case

never bothered by diapers or dust,

never arguing over the timing of an egg,

never telling the same story twice,

never getting a middle-aged spread,

their darling smiles pasted on for eternity.

Regular Bobbsey Twins.

That story. "

I don't want to live that story; I like the one I am writing, but I have my eyes wide open now.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm going to tentatively defend Raquel on this.

There are so, so many negative depictions of married life in popular culture. They run the gamut from off-color jokes fired during the supposed battle of the sexes to a surprising number of crime dramas where marrieds tend to turn on each other for money or out of jealousy.

I'm generalizing here, but often when the topic of divorce comes up, it's treated casually - part a wedding culture that allows for conditional vows (e.g., 'We promise to stay together while love endures').

A recent and most surprising example of this same sentiment was when that bloviating pus-bag Pat Robertson offered that severe intellectual impairment in one spouse is legitimate grounds for divorce.

This kind of negativity bombards newlywed: 'Oh, you're happy? That's just the honeymoon phase. Give it a year and you'll be as miserable as the rest of us' – or, alternatively, 'The first year of marriage is supposed to difficult. If it's not terribly hard for you, then there's a communication problem.'

'Oh – you've been married over four years? Just be careful; that's statistically when divorces are most likely to happen.'

'You've been married seven years? Be careful of that seven-year itch.â€

...and on and on and on.

I have a happy, stable, enduring marriage. I don't speak ill of my husband or our union, and it has never been necessary for me to question the wisdom of that position.

It hasn't stopped a few people over the years from asking me for the “real story,†however, because obviously a couple that appears happy must surely be even more diseased than a couple that doesn't.

Of course it's wise to warn Raquel that unrealistic expectations of the future could lead to unhappiness, and that some guys are not what they pretend to be, but sometimes people push the message too hard, suggesting that a jaded position is more realistic than cautious optimism.

To Raquel I would say: Look for someone who treats you with respect, who treats his mom with respect, who treats waiters and waitresses with respect; who can problem-solve constructively. As long as you keep an eye out for that, and dodge some red flags, than it seems okay to daydream about dancing in the rain.

1. I agree with you that real love is possible, and worth the effort. I'm constantly thankful that I have it.

2. I love your description of your marriage, and the whole post that went with it. That's awesome!

3. My issue isn't with having a belief in love, but with having a false belief in what "true love" looks like. This is an issue in both secular and religious worlds, just with different terms. Instant heart-pounding goes away. Being attracted to smooth talker is deceptive. Expecting that love = twirling and dancing in the rain isn't a realistic picture. If you focus on the flash and fantasy, it's easy to miss the real thing when it exists under your nose. Knowing what amazing REAL love looks like always means not settling for less - all the romantic gestures in the world don't make up for someone who doesn't treat you with basic decency and respect. It's frustrating and heart-breaking when I see women who are willing to put up with utter crap because they think that this is the price they need to pay for love.

[ilovetchotchkes]

You know what's romantic? Coming home to find that the dishwasher has been unloaded. That's real romance.

Or that my husband, knowing I'm a complete scatterbrain has stacked my wallet, cell phone and keys on the nightstand.

I have a friend who was into that ZOMG ROMANTIC LURRRRRVE thing. Teased the crap outta me for my matter of fact, non nauseating marriage based on friendship. Guess which one of us has been married 5+ years and guess which one of us is starting divorce proceedings. Not sayin, just sayin.

EDITED for more stuff,

[Dinorah]

Also, what's the fixation with the first kiss on the wedding day? My own first kiss happened later than it does for most people, and even though I was very attracted to the guy I remember awkwardness and my mouth getting filled with saliva, rather than "tingling from my head to my toes" or whaterver. And at least we were alone, imagine kissing for the very first time in front of dozens of people. Maybe not so romantic after all.

[formergothardite]

Also, what's the fixation with the first kiss on the wedding day? My own first kiss happened later than it does for most people, and even though I was very attracted to the guy I remember awkwardness and my mouth getting filled with saliva, rather than "tingling from my head to my toes" or whaterver. And at least we were alone, imagine kissing for the very first time in front of dozens of people. Maybe not so romantic after all.

Exactly, I thought my first kiss was going to be some sort of amazing event, it wasn't. It wasn't horrible, but I still felt disapointed because I just had unrealistic expectations that no guy could live up to. Expecting that guys are going to whisk you out into the rain to dance or take you to gallop on horses on a deserted beach (I think she has posted a picture of people doing that before with claims that she is going to have a husband who does that with her, but it could be some other love obsessed maiden) or any of the other things you see on tv and movies, sets the guy up for failure and the girl up to feeling disapointment.

[formergothardite]

I have a question for people here who blog, is it common to practically bribe people into following you? It seems like she is always begging and saying things "If I reach ___ amount of followers I will have a give away. So get everyone you know to follow me!" Isn't the point of having people follow your blog is having people who actually like it and choose to do so? It is like she doesn't care if you read her blog, she just wants the numbers to make herself look better. But, like I said, I'm not a blogger, so bloggers might have a different perspective on it. A couple of the blogs I read have had give aways kind of like that, but it has always been announced after they reached a certain number of followers, not before to get more readers. But I don't read a ton of blogs, so maybe doing it her way is more common than I think.

[Avalondaughter]

I stopped playing in leaf piles after I noticed that every time my dog saw a leaf pile, she'd pee in it.

[Burris]

But the negativity is countered by the diamond ads etc. Which create the unrealistic expectations which lead to marital unhappiness.

I would argue that message of marriage is "happy happy joy joy perfection" most pre-marrieds, especially fundies, receive. In pop culture, there is Disney, romantic comedies, diamond commercials, endless television shows about brides, dresses, wedding, novels: Most are wish-fulfillment ending in a wedding. I am not saying one shouldn't be cautiously optimistic, not everyone ends up with an unable to pray the gay away fundie, but it happens..

It seems in some ways that we actually agree:

I believe the diamond ads are actually more of the same negativity. A cursory glance through them reveals taglines such as...

“She wants you to spend more time with her. You want more time for friends and beer. Negotiate.â€

“Hey. What do you know; she thinks you're funny again.â€

“When selecting the perfect diamond engagement ring for her, choose carefully...it's the last decisison you'll ever make.â€

“She already knows you love her. Now everyone else will too.â€

And then there's this even more blatant ad.

These are all negative depictions of marriage, and most of them suggest the way to a woman's fidelity is through a man's pocket-book.

Where advertizing in general is concerned, men are targeted for sexist ads as well – and a lot of them feature potentially troubled relationships with women.

As I was looking through these ads, I came across an interesting study out of the University of North Carolina. The authors weren't looking at media influences on attitudes toward marriage, but at socioeconomic influences.

At first, I merely bookmarked the study for later review because it didn't seem to have much bearing on this topic, but then it occurred to me how up-beat shows about brides, weddings, and dresses could send a negative message about marriage – i.e., about what makes for the necessary foundation of a good marriage – that might cause people to fore-go the institution entirely.

From the study's summary:

Remaining analyses will examine attitudinal differences by family income, immigrant status, and parenthood status, followed by modeling of attitudes with our theory-based socialization and opportunity structure measures described above. At this point, there seems to be consistent evidence that high socioeconomic status affords an attitudinal emphasis on the affective qualities of marriage, such as love, trust, and commitment, with less concern about the economic security of marriage. For minorities and those of lower socioeconomic status, attitudes show the opposite; that is, less importance is placed on love, trust, and commitment, and more on having enough money in marriage.

This suggests that attitudes may develop among young people as they observe their social surroundings and the threats to marital stability brought about by economic insecurity despite levels of love, trust, and commitment in the relationship.

Earlier on, the authors discussed how the expectation of economic uncertainty – even more than worries about basic compatibility - led more singles to put off marriage in favor of cohabitation.

What makes this situation all the more interesting is that marriage can improve a family's economic prospects regardless of socioeconomic status: Getting married makes good sense to a compatible couple regardless of financial limitations. (They can file joint tax returns, share medical insurance, and access other benefits.)

The way I see it – and this is just my opinion, for better or worse – is that far from making marriage look more appealing and desirable, even a “positive†show about marriage, such as Say Yes to the Dress, can send a negative message.

Some people are conditioned (by up-bringing or media, etc.) to fear divorce even before having met anyone they might want to marry. They then see depictions of outlandishly expensive wedding preparations, and hear people wax poetic about how all that pageantry will give the new couple a good start.

They also hear a lot about how it's “irresponsible†to get married before becoming financially established in a stable career.

The message they get is clear: You don't have enough of this or that to get married. If you did, you could buy that diamond ring that would help to ensure your wife's fidelity. And besides that, marriage is a battle and a minefield and the end of fun as you know it.

/ free-form ramble

[O Latin]

I'm going to stick up for her a little bit, too. She's very young, yes? Like maybe still a teenager? I think when you're that young, and you dream about falling in love, you're going to imagine unrealistically romantic things and unrealistic levels of perfection and happiness. When I was a teenager, my image of Mr. Perfect was somebody who would surprise me with a weekend getaway and kiss me at midnight on New Year's Eve and take me out to brunch on Saturday morning. I think I knew (or at least had some idea) from watching my parents that real, enduring love was more like she puts three small, hungry children in the car on a cold night to drive across town and rescue him when his car breaks down, or he takes the dead mice out of the trap because they freak her out, but nobody daydreams about realistic stuff, especially not when they're young.

[formergothardite]

I agree that marriage isn't this horrible, totally unfun thing, but I still think that it is unrealistic to go into marriage (keep in mind that this is going to be with someone she has never spent time with alone) thinking that if it rains he is going to sweep her off her feet and carry her outside to dance or that he is going to be lifting her high above his head as the sun sets behind them (another thing I am pretty sure she said she is going to do with future husband) or that life is going to be like all the romance pictures and quotes that she posts non-stop. I think that is setting the guy up to be frustrated because he will never be able to live up to this standard she set and her up to being disappointed because he doesn't do all the things she thought he was going to do. That is why I said she needed to get a boyfriend because that way by the time she gets married she will have more realistic expectations on love and romance.

My husband and I have had our ups and down, but we still have fun together. But that fun usually involves laughing and joking around while we wash dishes.

[MerryHappy]

You know what's romantic? Coming home to find that the dishwasher has been unloaded. That's real romance.

This. A thousand times this.

[Austin]

I'm going to stick up for her a little bit, too. She's very young, yes? Like maybe still a teenager? I think when you're that young, and you dream about falling in love, you're going to imagine unrealistically romantic things and unrealistic levels of perfection and happiness. When I was a teenager, my image of Mr. Perfect was somebody who would surprise me with a weekend getaway and kiss me at midnight on New Year's Eve and take me out to brunch on Saturday morning. I think I knew (or at least had some idea) from watching my parents that real, enduring love was more like she puts three small, hungry children in the car on a cold night to drive across town and rescue him when his car breaks down, or he takes the dead mice out of the trap because they freak her out, but nobody daydreams about realistic stuff, especially not when they're young.

There's nothing wrong with any of that, O Latin. My "Mr. Perfect" (ha! he'd laugh at that) and I do all of those things (surprise getaways, kissing on New Year's - and other times - lol, and we have brunch together every single Sunday morning, just the two of us). But you also seem to realize that that's one small (albeit important) part of an enduring marriage. The other part is he deals with stopped up toilets b/c they make me want to barf, cleans the boys' bathroom b/c it makes me want to barf, and always makes sure I have gas in my car. All of these things are lovely ways to demonstrate love and all are important, which you seem to understand.

[cindyluvs24]

She takes a long time to get to the point which is: I've never gone on a date, never had a boyfriend, probably never had a friend who happens to be a boy, I have to live my life vicariously thru others until I get permission. Jeez. I know people waiting for organ transplants that have more of a life. Of course, they don't need to "Encourage" each other on blogs 24/7. Incidentally, after 18 yrs of marriage and 4 of shacking up, I still think romance is great, but I also have the real world to compare it to, this gal doesn't.

[formergothardite]

I think another issue with Raquel is that because of her strict courtship standards, she will not be able to grow out of this stage like most people do. She is going to go into marriage with all these unrealistic views of romance with a guy she has never been alone with. And judging from how her parents seem to encourage dramatic overreaction to small issues, I can see her having Kardashian style meltdowns when it rains for the first time and she isn't whisked outdoors to dance.

[Effie]

I can see her having Kardashian style meltdowns when it rains for the first time and she isn't whisked outdoors to dance.

:(

[Daenerys]

:(

Don't feel too sorry for the future Mr Raquel yet... for all we know he could be the Christian TT!

[Kitten]

I think that is setting the guy up to be frustrated because he will never be able to live up to this standard she set and her up to being disappointed because he doesn't do all the things she thought he was going to do.

Nah, because in their courtship, she will ask ALL those questions, so he will know exactly what he is supposed to do. If he doesn't answer correctly, she will tell Daddy that God is leading her away from this man. :D

In any event, I hope she doesn't plan to conceive on her wedding night, because those pesky little babies/toddlers take a lot of fun out of those romantic brunches, and it's kinda hard to go dancing in the rain when you have a 6-month-old who can't be left alone. :D :D

But yeah, you CAN have a "real" marriage and have those things - they're just not going to happen all the time or forever. There will be breakfasts of yogurt and coffee because you were up all night with a sick baby, there will be cold rainy days when the last thing you want is to go outside, but someone has to drag the trashcan to the curb, and there will be days when you realize that riding horses on the beach is followed by two hours of grooming, cleaning sand out of the tack, and mucking out the stalls.

I'll give her the romantic fantasies for now, with the hopes that she grows up to embrace and enjoy the reality just as much.

[formergothardite]

If you have to tell somebody that they need to take you out to dance in the rain, doesn't it take some of the romance out of it? And even if the guy does check yes during the courtship quiz, it doesn't really mean that he will remember to do it during and actual rain storm. LOL. But hopefully any guy who marries her will have looked at her blog and seen her tendencies to be self-absorbed, overly romantic, and a drama queen. I still can't get over her making her parents sit down for a meeting with the parents of the girl who mentioned to others that Raquel liked a guy.

Anyway, I bet she will be courting by the time she is 18 or at the latest 19.

[Daenerys]

If you have to tell somebody that they need to take you out to dance in the rain, doesn't it take some of the romance out of it? And even if the guy does check yes during the courtship quiz, it doesn't really mean that he will remember to do it during and actual rain storm. LOL. But hopefully any guy who marries her will have looked at her blog and seen her tendencies to be self-absorbed, overly romantic, and a drama queen. I still can't get over her making her parents sit down for a meeting with the parents of the girl who mentioned to others that Raquel liked a guy.

Anyway, I bet she will be courting by the time she is 18 or at the latest 19.

I bet she'll have a few 'failures' that will mysteriously disappear from her blog when they come to an end. Although I can't imagine her being single for too long... what else is there for a girl like her to do? She's only one of about 7, and there's 5 girls, so it's hardly a Duggar-esque situation of her being indispensible to care for the little ones.

Is she QF? THAT'll be a shock for her when she's got 10 kids to care for and school, day after day....

[2xx1xy1JD]

Sure, maybe it's typical teen romantic fantasies - but there's a dangerous dark side. It seems to me that with fundie courtship, you are sort of expecting some feeling to come over you as a sign from G-d that this is your One True Love. What happens when she finds a guy with great looks who makes her stomach do flip-flops, and who knows how to turn on the romantic charm? Is she going to immediately conclude that this guy was sent to her directly from heaven, so she's entering the courtship and not bothering with due diligence to check out if he's decent and if they are truly compatible? Then, when a less pleasant side comes out, will she dismiss it as simply "thorns" because she's already given away her heart to him and decided that being with him is Divine Will? In other words - will it be like Lina and Tony?

[Antigone]

I think it's just fanciful romantic nonsense, and that's juuuuust fine with me if she thinks that; she's young, she's supposed to be enthralled by the IDEA of "true love". Dr. Sev and I are not romantics, far from it but we have our moments. If he pulled me into the rain or some romnatic sappy move like that, I'd wonder if he had gotten dementia already.

I don't think it is healthy though to hold on to such ideals of love. It might mess her up when the time comes for her to have an actual relationship, and it might hit her hard. Then again some of us gotta learn the hard way :) I know I am one of those learners :)

[raineymott]

If my husband pulled me into the rain to dance I'd be mad. It's not romantic, it is cold and uncomfortable.

YES. I hate rain.

You know what's romantic? Coming home to find that the dishwasher has been unloaded. That's real romance.

Totally!! Especially when I'm pregnant and lucky if I can get to the bathroom all day, my back hurts so bad! (Btw, I have a pic of my husband in shorts, shirtless, unloading the dishwasher...I took it one day and was going to post it here as "fundie porn", for a joke...never got around to posting it tho.)

Also, what's the fixation with the first kiss on the wedding day? My own first kiss happened later than it does for most people, and even though I was very attracted to the guy I remember awkwardness and my mouth getting filled with saliva, rather than "tingling from my head to my toes" or whaterver. And at least we were alone, imagine kissing for the very first time in front of dozens of people. Maybe not so romantic after all.

My first kiss wasn't on my wedding day...but it WAS amazing. Some are...some aren't.

The only expectation I really had for marriage was that I would be out from under my parents' thumbs. lol I'm not a very romantic person tho..never have been. I was never the type to even think about planning my wedding.

[Mommy22alyns]

I would argue that message of marriage is "happy happy joy joy perfection" most pre-marrieds, especially fundies, receive. In pop culture, there is Disney, romantic comedies, diamond commercials, endless television shows about brides, dresses, wedding, novels: Most are wish-fulfillment ending in a wedding. I am not saying one shouldn't be cautiously optimistic, not everyone ends up with an unable to pray the gay away fundie, but it happens. The operative word here is cautious, which is not a word I was particularly concerned with when I was teen to divorce.

Personally, I prefer Anne Sexton's Cinderella story from Transformations, the Pulitzer Prize winning book of poems, which ends:

"Cinderella and the prince

lived, they say, happily ever after,

like two dolls in a museum case

never bothered by diapers or dust,

never arguing over the timing of an egg,

never telling the same story twice,

never getting a middle-aged spread,

their darling smiles pasted on for eternity.

Regular Bobbsey Twins.

That story. "

I don't want to live that story; I like the one I am writing, but I have my eyes wide open now.

Aaah, Transformations. Good stuff!

[treemom]

Dear Raquel, loving the lord doesn't somehow make the thorns fewer and farther between.

Christians still have babies who die.

Christians still make mistakes and can in fact commit adultery while both loving their spouse and god.

Christians still have financial pressures.

Christians still get sick.

Christians still struggle with changes they and their spouse go through.

They still lose their job, wreck their car, have children who rebel is very scary ways.

No one is immune from the pain and thorns or promised less or an easier way to get through them. We all do it.

And love isn't just pain and dancing in the rain.

So yes, get over the goofiness.

[raineymott]