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How did you leave fundamentalism behind (if applicable)?


Austin

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I take this to mean that there aren't people inserting themselves into your connection with God, trying to be your paternalistic conscience because they have such a low opinion of other Christians that no one can do it right without being fairly closely policed. In other words, it's not focused on legalism and external standards of performance or other external measures of faith to prove something to others. That's what Protestantism was supposed to be all about in the beginning.

I absolutely agree, and I think it would be true for most Quaker churches.

Just posting my experience of one, because I think Raine maybe is looking for the balance between interconnected community with deep connections, and a possibly-like-minded grouping that doesn't result in people policing one another legalistically. The church I went to had plenty of the latter, but imo not enough of the former for someone like me.

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If anyone is church-shopping, I cannot say enough good things about the Unitarians! It's the only church where people ask you what religion you are and everyone has a different answer :)

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Holy flaming arrows, Batman! :o Did anyone check to see who in the church had taken up archery lately? Was she aware that yelling "Oh my god!" doesn't mean that he was praying?

I don't know how you can stand working for that guy. That takes some extreme maturity! It's all I can do to fake a smile and polite "Hi. Wow, your kids are growing up" when there's no avoiding someone from my past at the grocery store.

Here's a question for the rest of you. When you see people from your past in public do you catch yourself acting happy and energetic no matter how bad your day is to keep word from getting back that you looked tired/unhappy/angry and should have stayed in fundyville?

I guess it's complicated to some degree. One thing is that I make really good $$ with a super-flexible schedule. This all happened right after the 2008 market crash so it was not a good time to be looking for a job. Plus, I had left my previous job b/c I had to file a sexual harassment complaint, so I really wasn't that sure how employable I was at the time.

And my BFF, who is his SIL, also works there (see what I meant by complicated? - lol) and I am closer to her than I am to anyone except my own immediate family. I feel very lucky that we can work together b/c how many people get to work for a fairly stable company with their best friend and make good money?

He just acts like nothing ever happened, and as long as he's cool about it, we'll be okay. The funny thing is that not long after we left, he and his wife also left the church to join another, and now he's a big shot there and talks about that church all the time. So at least he's not talking about all these people that we are happy to not hear from again :)

BFF told me in confidence that he told his wife (her sis) he felt bad about that situation but he didn't know how to express that (he's rather socially awkward). He was not a part of the behind-the-back email discussion and at least had the balls to approach my husband directly, so I think that made it a little better.

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I can't say I've left fundamentalism, as I hold to the "five fundamentals" of Protestant Christianity and am in general very conservative theologically, socially, and politically. However, I'm still a square peg in fundie circles, so I'm not sure exactly what I am.

I'm with you there. I'm still fundie. My faith is too important to me to give up. I definitely don't fit in at my current church but I know leaving will cause problems in my family so I guess my differences aren't important enought to me to leave. But I know that who I am and what I believe has changed.

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I grew up more in a more fundie Pentacostal/charismatic environment and I stopped believing very early because I recognized that I was being told lies. My grandmother 'cast out demons' from me when I talked back or whatever, but I always knew that there were no demons and that that was fucked up and a lie. So for me it was very easy to just chuck the whole thing although for awhile as a preteen/young teenager I was a total Angstheist. I actually cannot remember a time I believed in God, although I'm sure I did when I was very young.

ETA: Likewise, when I was abused, I never had a problem with self-blame. I know that's really common, for people to think that they've in some way brought abuse upon themselves. But since I already thought everyone around me was a liar, it wasn't hard to blame them.

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I was not raised fundamentalist at all. From reading the comments of folks who were raised in that environment, some of whom remain believers and others not, I do see a common thread. That thread is the tendency of many of these groups to be so legalistic and to require all members to have the same point of view on many hot button subjects. If you disagree on one point, you become an outcast.

There seems to be this necessity to agree on things like guns and homosexuality and a women's right to choose is overly rigid. If the answers to these issues were so clear-cut, there would not be so much controversy and emotion surrounding them. To expect everyone in your church group to agree completely on these things is a recipe for dissention. Not only that, but over a lifetime a person encounters many situations that htey did not consider. These experiences tend to alter a person's perception of controversial issues. Furthermore, even if you agree that homosexuality is a sin or that life begins at conception, you may not be comfortable with being rabidly judgmental about folks who come to a different conclusion. Simply being sympathetic to another point of view seems to be reason to make you outcast.

It is this rigid, angry, judgemental, political side to religious fundamentalism that is frightening and objectionable.

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For the folks who have done or seen the church-hopping, either from cult to cult because they're so welcoming and all-encompassing at first, or from regular congregations because they seem distant, or cold...does it seem like you're kind of hardwired to look for that culty intensity? Or, acclimated maybe? There's a sort of constant comment from Evangelicals that the more mainline churches are dry, cold, intellectual, not involved enough, and the same kind of feeling from people who've been in really controlling, lovebombing churches to the bigger, less united/controlling ones as well.

It's not something I've done, but it seems really similar to how I had been about romantic relationships. My parents were so codependent, it took me a really long time to get that low-drama, high-stability relationships could still be love. Like, maybe 4 years into my current partnership I stopped thinking it was secretly not love just because we didn't have screaming arguments and storm out of the house and then make up.

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That thread is the tendency of many of these groups to be so legalistic and to require all members to have the same point of view on many hot button subjects. If you disagree on one point, you become an outcast.

That's exactly how I left it behind. I went off to college, which was one of the non-negotiables. Even though we agreed on many other points, we disagreed on that point, and I was a bad, evil person...so I decided to go all the way. I mean, if they think I'm going to hell, I might as well earn it. Their rejection of women going to college led to my rejection of their roles for women (and the subsequent discovery/embracing of feminism), and once I found feminism... :shifty: :shhh:

To be fair, most people didn't think women who went to college bought a ticket to hell--only a few vocal people thought that. The rest of them couched it in nice financial management strategies and wise living--women don't work, so financially, college doesn't make sense.

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For the folks who have done or seen the church-hopping, either from cult to cult because they're so welcoming and all-encompassing at first, or from regular congregations because they seem distant, or cold...does it seem like you're kind of hardwired to look for that culty intensity? Or, acclimated maybe? There's a sort of constant comment from Evangelicals that the more mainline churches are dry, cold, intellectual, not involved enough, and the same kind of feeling from people who've been in really controlling, lovebombing churches to the bigger, less united/controlling ones as well.

It's not something I've done, but it seems really similar to how I had been about romantic relationships. My parents were so codependent, it took me a really long time to get that low-drama, high-stability relationships could still be love. Like, maybe 4 years into my current partnership I stopped thinking it was secretly not love just because we didn't have screaming arguments and storm out of the house and then make up.

Yes and no. I've hopped between 5 churches since leaving my parents' church 5 years ago. Ironically, even as I was rejecting fundamentalism, I ended up at a church more fundie than my parents', and it had nothing to do with the welcoming. As a single female attending without her parents or other male head, I was not welcome there. I ended up at all of these churches because they seemed similar enough to feel like home, but the crazies came out in different ways (so it took a few months to recognize it). After all of that, I find myself drawn towards mainline and liturgical churches, but that was not true when I first left.

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The "feeling like home" is a big part of why anyone chooses a church, whether it's the decorations or the ritual level or the music - I put too many assumptions into my question, but I guess it was "was the crazy such a big part of your formative church experiences that any church that doesn't have it feels wrong?"

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The "feeling like home" is a big part of why anyone chooses a church, whether it's the decorations or the ritual level or the music -

That, yes.

I put too many assumptions into my question, but I guess it was "was the crazy such a big part of your formative church experiences that any church that doesn't have it feels wrong?"

No, definitely not. At least not for me.

I would describe my growing up as fundy- it was IFB- but - I am "old"- many of the manifestations of crazy that are talked about on FJ were NOT part of it. Even with my background, I am still shocked at the garbage that comes from VF and ATI. For example, higher education for women was not discouraged; it was actually promoted where I grew up. Most kids attended public school when I was growing up. The church of my youth was not involved in politics, nor made political statements at all. My father had nothing to do with my dating practices, and my husband of 34 years now did NOT ask my father for my hand in marriage (Gah!)

However, after I was out on my own, my father moved and got involved in a more crazy place, and my younger siblings had/have repercussions from the crazy of that place.

Somewhat off topic: I think the "crazy" has really increased in the past several years.

Another off topic: The church of my teen-young adult years WAS dresses/skirts only for girls and women, and this "standard" was used like a whip, and it prevented girls and women from doing a lot. This topic is still triggering for me, and I have had a dress on once in the past 3 years.

I am a Christian, but not currently attending anywhere regularly. Still looking. I am VERY musical (I was a church accompanist for 41 years before I decided to take a break), and music is mostly how I worship. I am looking for a place where the music speaks to me, along with a place where I am comfortable with their theology and social stance.

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Do others think that one of the big concerns has been the tendency of fundamentalist groups to try to "outdo" each other in how restrictive and how politically right wing they are?

Honestly, growing up I never felt threatened by people who were members of very conservative churches. I grew up in the '70s. There were a few families we knew about who were obviously fundamentalist Christian. The kids sometimes went to public school, although there were things in which they did not participate. The girls wore dresses andt he boys always had slcks and a button down collared shirt. There was a set of twins that were in a few of my classes for a few years. They were very sweet. They answered the many questions we had and never imposed anything upon any of us.

I feel threatened by these groups now. The emphasis seems to have changed from imposing a certain life upon themselves to imposing judgement upon others. That, and of course throwing over the government. I suppose it is the latter thing that is getting the attention of the mainstream

Also, do you think that mainstream people who are politically conservative are becoming aware that they are being co-opted?

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I feel threatened by these groups now. The emphasis seems to have changed from imposing a certain life upon themselves to imposing judgement upon others. That, and of course throwing over the government. I suppose it is the latter thing that is getting the attention of the mainstream

Also, do you think that mainstream people who are politically conservative are becoming aware that they are being co-opted?

I have been mentally trying to analyze the whole thing (without many conclusions, at this point).

There have definitely been major changes, and I am not sure of the reasons.

My perception is that the "leadership" in these groups is now much more about control, instead of preaching the gospel (that's the best way I know to say it, and that is NOT the same as proselytizing). I also think that the whole political bent has seriously damaged many churches and "Christian" groups.

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So, I'm new here...hi. If you're interested, I'll give a couple of paragraphs of back story, but the answer to the thread's question is at the end.

My mother was discovering fundamentalism when I was a toddler. She, ironically, kind of forced my father into a patriarchal role that he wouldn't have otherwise embraced. My siblings and I were homeschooled from kindergarten onward, awkward denim jumper types, with our lives structured around lots of Gothard-y rules. But, thanks to my dad's involvement, the fact that my mom could only have three children, and my own somewhat obsessive interest, I did get what I feel was a very decent primary education (particularly in science, which was an interest of my father's). No School of the Dining Room Table. I still didn't go to college, and my life wasn't perfect by any means, but...I feel so grateful for what it was, because it could've been a whole lot worse. I was never beaten, or made to feel worthless. My parents, siblings, and I have a good relationship to this day, and they've slacked up a lot in their beliefs (particularly my dad).

My husband had a very different experience. His parents were each the children of conservative Baptist preachers. HUGELY patriarchal and legalistic. His father is, frankly, the most egocentric, childish man I've ever met, which I somehow didn't realize until after we were married. Their household revolves around him to a disturbing degree. His daughters iron his clothes, wash his car, cook his meals. When supper is served, everyone has to wait for him to get what he wants, then the leftovers get split between everyone else. My husband and his siblings weren't given the option of going to college (it's evil, you know), and the other five are still living at home in their 20s and 30s, save one who is married and living out of state (another WAS married but...that is a long and screwed up story about the "umbrella of protection" I won't get into here). His mother to this day pushes the idea that you cannot have a well-behaved child without "spanking," which sometimes means pulling out a belt. We've made the mistake of trying to bring up certain issues we had with their beliefs or the way we were talked to/treated, but they turn things around on us. Things are always made out to be OUR problem rather than theirs and I get, "We'll pray for you" a lot.

TL;DR: When we got married, FIL and MIL apparently thought they were still going to run DH's life (and by extension my life, and our children's lives). And that wasn't okay with us. We started reading a lot and questioning the things we were taught. I would say that we're both still on a journey. We haven't figured everything out for ourselves, and I'm not sure the journey will ever really end. But we want to raise children someday (yes, getting blasted as an evil feminist just for the "someday" part already) and we will NOT accept these things for them.

There was a thread the other day asking if patriarchal sons ever really get to head their own households until their fathers die--in our experience, the answer to that would be "no."

I still get blindsided sometimes when I read Free Jinger, when you guys bring something up that I've just plain never thought about before, that everyone agrees is ridiculous (like, giving away pieces of your heart)...there are so many screwed up ideas that are so ingrained, it just never occurrs to us that there are other viewpoints to consider, sometimes. So I lurk here a lot, and it's been extremely helpful as we figure out what we actually believe. So--thanks, Free Jinger. You don't "just snark," you are actually providing a service. :)

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TL;DR: When we got married, FIL and MIL apparently thought they were still going to run DH's life (and by extension my life, and our children's lives)

This is another thing with the VF and ATI that was not a part of any of the "fundies" I was aware of in my growing up years. Without exception, those churches/groups taught "leave and cleave". Strongly.

I just don't understand how VF/ATI can "interpret" Scripture they way they do, and have all they supposedly-Bible-reading followers they do. Color me confused.

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I spent my childhood in and out of fundamentalist churches of the baptist or Pentecostal variety. At fifteen, I settled on the Assemblies of God. I met my husband while there and we stayed in the A/G church until 2001. In college, I took a bibilical literature course that changed my worldview on the bible. After the course, I could no longer look at the Bible as 100% correct or inspired by God. But I stayed in evangelical christianity because that is what I knew and what I thought was right. I did not share my views on the Bible with people. ;)

By 2001, I had become fed up with what I saw happening in churches. I saw the motivating factors behind everything that was done and concluded that desire for power and control was king. We switched over to a home church for a while and that was no better.

When my oldest started 1st grade, we decided to home school her. That decision prompted us to get back into church because I didn't want to isolate my daughter. We ended up at a large charismatic church. It was no surprise to me that the pastor's underlying goals where about power, control and money. I grew very weary of "emotional Christianity" and "deliverance" based sermons. Church was a weekly meeting to be delivered by something: depression, anger, greed, demons, oppression. EVERY WEEK!

At this point, I still believed in God and figured that some church MUST be doing better than the churches I had attended. After some interesting events, we traded in the charismatic world for the Baptist world. I never wanted to be a baptist. I always thought they had too many rules. But we loved the people of the church and it quickly felt like "family".

After the initial newness wore off, I think I felt lost without emotional Christianity. It both repulsed me and fascinated me. I was so used to all the highs and lows and emotional experiences. But I couldn't go back. I knew it wasn't what I wanted anymore. So I pressed on in true baptist fashion. I embraced the rules. I think homeschooling is a major factor in why I walked away from fundamentalism. The christian homeschooling community is a closed community. It's very oppressive and it's all about appearances. The "need" to show off a perfect family and perfect children is OVERWHELMING. The stakes are high and the pressure I put on myself really wore me out.

The breaking point for me was in finding out that some homeschool family that we knew did not want her children associating with one of my sons, because he was a bad influence. That was the last straw for me. That didn't make me angry at God, or church or Christianity, but it did make me want to reevaluate what I believed and why I believed it. I went back to the Bible and went back to my desire to reconnect with God and what I found shocked me. I had actually been watching the Duggars a lot and admired them. I thought they were living out their faith like the bible said they should. But the more I watched the Duggars and other's like them, the more I realized that I didn't like the life they were living. I didn't like that the Bible and the God that I served wanted people to live there lives in such an oppressive way. So I went back to the Bible and all I saw was this God that I didn't like or understand and all the questions about faith and God that had secretly pondered over the years came flooding back to me and I could no longer ignore them. The more I learned, the less I believed. I walked away from it all. The "other side" made arguments that I couldn't refute, couldn't pray away. The god goggles were gone and once you take them off, you can't put them back on.

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Coincidence or cause? I don't know. But the turning point for many groups (see my earlier post on the "fundies" of my youth compared to todays fundies) seems to have happened greatly with the promotion and implementation of the religious-based homeschool culture.

Thoughts?

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No, definitely not. At least not for me.

I would describe my growing up as fundy- it was IFB- but - I am "old"- many of the manifestations of crazy that are talked about on FJ were NOT part of it. Even with my background, I am still shocked at the garbage that comes from VF and ATI. For example, higher education for women was not discouraged; it was actually promoted where I grew up. Most kids attended public school when I was growing up. The church of my youth was not involved in politics, nor made political statements at all. My father had nothing to do with my dating practices, and my husband of 34 years now did NOT ask my father for my hand in marriage (Gah!)

However, after I was out on my own, my father moved and got involved in a more crazy place, and my younger siblings had/have repercussions from the crazy of that place.

Somewhat off topic: I think the "crazy" has really increased in the past several years.

Another off topic: The church of my teen-young adult years WAS dresses/skirts only for girls and women, and this "standard" was used like a whip, and it prevented girls and women from doing a lot. This topic is still triggering for me, and I have had a dress on once in the past 3 years.

I am a Christian, but not currently attending anywhere regularly. Still looking. I am VERY musical (I was a church accompanist for 41 years before I decided to take a break), and music is mostly how I worship. I am looking for a place where the music speaks to me, along with a place where I am comfortable with their theology and social stance.

Thanks, Apple. I hope you find your church. I like the hippie mixed-religion church we go to sometimes, culturally and politically, and I think it's half because aside from the pagans, hippies, and the after-sermon debate, it looks/smells/sounds like the churches we attended when I was a kid.

I'm glad to hear it wasn't that bad when you were growing up - I was born in the '70s, and my parents were very middle-of-the-road religiously until they had bad problems in their marriage in the mid-'80s and got legalistic enough that people with more regular childhoods think it's weird, but still nowhere like the folks we talk about here. So it's hard to know if it really did get a lot worse or if I've just gotten more and more aware of it.

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The god goggles were gone and once you take them off, you can't put them back on.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I relate so much.

The last statement you made has a lot of truth in it for me. I would rather, to be frank, retain a faith in God. Not in a religious sense as I seriously doubt that I will ever be able to be involved in organized religion again, but just in a spiritual sense. I would like to have someting to believe in with regards to life and what happens to our energy when we die, if anything. It's hard for me to accept, after growing up evangelical, that I will never see my momma and papa again, or that when I die, I will not see my husband and children again. I feel very conflicted about this and more than a bit sad.

My personality is that of a resolver, so I tend to try very hard to make things "work" if possible. But as I grew older, I began to refuse to sacrifice intellectual honesty or authenticity for some semblance of certainty. So I remain in this true agnostic state, where I just don't know. For now. :)

I do know I can't *make* myself believe. As I stated in my story, I don't know where I am or where I'll end up on this journey, but I would agree that once the god-goggles are off, it's really, really hard to put them back on.

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I am figuring all of this out now. I have pretty much dropped my skirts only wearing ways in recent weeks (and discovered jeggings, thank you Lord!), ditched headcovering, and am pretty much feeling 100% okay with this. Best part is my husband could care less about ANYTHING, but really thinks my butt looks great in pants. He says he missed it. ;)

Anyway, I kept getting sucked back in out of what felt like a paranoid guilt. Like if I didn't dress a certain ~feminine way I was being a temptress and sinning and causing others to sin. If I spoke up and if I disagreed with my husband *gasp* I was being pushy and he would eventually get tired of it and leave. My reasons for leaving this behind are basically based on how miserable I was becoming and all the worries and fears involved. I don't want to live my life that way, and I am pretty sure God wouldn't either. Just my 2 cents.

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I am figuring all of this out now. I have pretty much dropped my skirts only wearing ways in recent weeks (and discovered jeggings, thank you Lord!), ditched headcovering, and am pretty much feeling 100% okay with this. Best part is my husband could care less about ANYTHING, but really thinks my butt looks great in pants. He says he missed it. ;)

Anyway, I kept getting sucked back in out of what felt like a paranoid guilt. Like if I didn't dress a certain ~feminine way I was being a temptress and sinning and causing others to sin. If I spoke up and if I disagreed with my husband *gasp* I was being pushy and he would eventually get tired of it and leave. My reasons for leaving this behind are basically based on how miserable I was becoming and all the worries and fears involved. I don't want to live my life that way, and I am pretty sure God wouldn't either. Just my 2 cents.

You be proud of your foxy butt, sister! It seems that your husband isn't as into whatever you were following as you may have thought! Having a supportive husband will make the transition easier for you. I am proud of you! I wish I had a good butt for pants; I only wear skirts and dresses because *I* like them, and they suit my figure. And I bet your hair looks fantastic without a covering!

I'd like to see the Bible verses that support being miserable and worried and afraid and unhappy being a good thing. Yes, I know into each life some suffering must come, but why do it to yourself? Keep going; you'll get where you need to be.

I am proud of any woman who stands up to the Patriarchy and says "No more for me, thanks!". It doesn't mean you cannot believe in God or read The Bible, but do it on your own terms. You are stronger than you imagine; we all are.

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Thanks, Apple. I hope you find your church. I like the hippie mixed-religion church we go to sometimes, culturally and politically, and I think it's half because aside from the pagans, hippies, and the after-sermon debate, it looks/smells/sounds like the churches we attended when I was a kid.

I'm glad to hear it wasn't that bad when you were growing up - I was born in the '70s, and my parents were very middle-of-the-road religiously until they had bad problems in their marriage in the mid-'80s and got legalistic enough that people with more regular childhoods think it's weird, but still nowhere like the folks we talk about here. So it's hard to know if it really did get a lot worse or if I've just gotten more and more aware of it.

Thanks for the good thoughts.

I really do think that it has gotten a lot worse. The "fundies" of my youth (I was born in the early 50s) self-identified as fundamentalists, based on beliefs in certain "fundamental" doctrines. But the craziness that FJ snarks on all the time really was mostly not part of that scene. Not saying that it was perfect...

So, no, I don't think it is just that we are more aware. I think there have been definite changes.

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By the way, I just wanted to clarify that when referring to removing the "god goggles", a term another poster had used which I found to be applicable for me, I did not mean to imply that to leave fundamentalism, one has to leave their faith altogether. I was really just talking about my own uncertaintly, but don't want to give those who are seeking to leave or in the process of leaving fundie-ism behind that they will automatically lose their faith. My husband left and he is still a Believer and I don't ever see him being anything else spiritually.

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By the way, I just wanted to clarify that when referring to removing the "god goggles", a term another poster had used which I found to be applicable for me, I did not mean to imply that to leave fundamentalism, one has to leave their faith altogether. I was really just talking about my own uncertaintly, but don't want to give those who are seeking to leave or in the process of leaving fundie-ism behind that they will automatically lose their faith. My husband left and he is still a Believer and I don't ever see him being anything else spiritually.

Austin, I hope it wasn't my follow up comment that made you post this- I hadn't read your comment before posting. I love the term "god-goggles", and I got what you meant.

I had to give up religion for a good long time after I took my pair off. I found spirituality again, and am attending Church, as I do want my daughter to have some background, but it is a nice, liberal Lutheran church. I already see that she is not going to be content with a single answer for spirituality, and she is still so wee. I still have trouble trusting the people in religion, especially those in positions of authority.

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You be proud of your foxy butt, sister! It seems that your husband isn't as into whatever you were following as you may have thought! Having a supportive husband will make the transition easier for you. I am proud of you! I wish I had a good butt for pants; I only wear skirts and dresses because *I* like them, and they suit my figure. And I bet your hair looks fantastic without a covering!

I'd like to see the Bible verses that support being miserable and worried and afraid and unhappy being a good thing. Yes, I know into each life some suffering must come, but why do it to yourself? Keep going; you'll get where you need to be.

I am proud of any woman who stands up to the Patriarchy and says "No more for me, thanks!". It doesn't mean you cannot believe in God or read The Bible, but do it on your own terms. You are stronger than you imagine; we all are.

I have a GREAT husband who honestly could care less about any of that as long as I am happy. We have been married almost 4 years and I am just now figuring this out. I'm an idiot. Anyway I don't think I have much of a butt, rather hips, always have, and having two kids doesn't help the situation lol. And I have dreads, just started them a few months ago, so it is nice letting them see the light of day.

Honestly the Bible isn't the issue, it's all implications. Fundies take a simple verse and turn it into a life changing blog, they take a simple phrase, and turn it into a bunch of rules or "things the Lord laid on their hearts". The Bible says VERY little about a lot of the key points fundies harp on, it is all interpretations and people using guilt to lure you in. Living that way makes you feel like you will NEVER be good enough, modest enough, have enough children...(I have two under two btw, ten months apart and I LOVE them to death but WOW they are a handful.) You are just never enough. That alone is depressing.

We are still Christians, still fairly conservative, we just don't feel the need to be fanatical about it anymore. I am probably going to lose a lot of friends, IRL and on the internetz because they lurk here and will figure out it is me, but I am going through a lot of change right now and am happy. If they aren't happy for me then- :roll:

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