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dawn9476

Sister Wives Family Welcome 17th/Baby Boy Born (MERGED)

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Austin
I would feel bad if my kids did not end up Jewish. Even with a Christian father, I have always assumed that they will be such. It's not to say that I wouldn't support them, love them, etc, just that it would be hard for me.

One of my stepchildren converted to LDS. My oldest son was interested in it for a while and went to the morning seminary for almost a year. I was supportive and told him that he has the right to make up his own mind. That does not mean that I was not worried about another kid ending up Mormon, another wedding where I have to wait outside the temple because I am not allowed inside, etc. You can walk the fine line between hoping that your children end up your same religion and emotionally coercing them.

I am personally slightly disappointed that my children are religious at all, at this point.

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emmiedahl

I can handle atheism and agnosticism, but for some reason it is harder to imagine them rejecting my religion and not just religion altogether.

I mean, I would deal with it, and there is a good chance one of them will jump ship. Whatever they decide, I will love them for it and not in spite of it. Plus, I don't think my teenager would have came out of his LDS phase if I had made it an issue. It would have turned into a rebellion thing.

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Austin
I think Robyn is making a HUGE mistake by not considering herself in her proper place--and that is NOT as a mother to the other women's children. I know all the adults probably think they have vested her with all the rights and responsibilities of a full-fledged sister wife, and therefore, mom. But the kids are not going to take it like that.

She's a STEP mother. They didn't grow up with her. All the other kids had the 3 moms from birth or near birth. Robyn is no different to the kids than if he had divorced them all and just married her.

Step-parenting is HARD. It takes a lot of maturity to realize where you stand, and to be able to compartmentalize your emotions so you don't take it personally when the kids don't take you seriously. When Robyn talks about "our kids" she's crossing a giant line, whether they want to admit it or not. She has to earn that status (sister mom) with each one of Kody's other kids with time and experience, or she's going to screw it up big time.

I agree. She's earned about zero cred with them, particularly the teenagers who are old enough to "get it" (wink-wink). She needs to show consistent care and patience and the ability to stay out of their business over a protracted period of time.

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Deesire

I found it really significant that they pretty much all admitted that they would not be in a polygamous family but for their religious beliefs. Meri especially was clear that she would have preferred a monogamous marriage with Kody except for the pesky little fact that her understanding of God's will was that Kodi should have other wives. The other wives held similar views, though Janelle did add the twist that through experience with polygamy she has come to prefer it. Very interesting that even among the poster family, polygamy isn't the preferred personal option.

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QAF_Rocks
I found it really significant that they pretty much all admitted that they would not be in a polygamous family but for their religious beliefs. Meri especially was clear that she would have preferred a monogamous marriage with Kody except for the pesky little fact that her understanding of God's will was that Kodi should have other wives. The other wives held similar views, though Janelle did add the twist that through experience with polygamy she has come to prefer it. Very interesting that even among the poster family, polygamy isn't the preferred personal option.

I didn't find that surprising at all. They've said over and over that they practice polygamy out of religious conviction and that living the polygamous lifestyle is hard, but that they see benefits and they think it makes them better people in the long run.

What I find strange is that a lot of people (not sure about FJ, but definitely on TWoP) seem convinced that they can't be serious about their religious conviction, that polygamy is really about Kody wanting more sex or Kody being an attention whore.

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Chrystal-J
When you spend all your time together f*cking, you don't know when you got pregnant.

And THEY ARE NOT MARRIED, except in the eyes of the Mormon god. It really irks me that People mag (and everyone else) says they're married. THEY ARE NOT MARRIED.

Agree...and agree.

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ElphabaGalinda

I didn't find that surprising at all. They've said over and over that they practice polygamy out of religious conviction and that living the polygamous lifestyle is hard, but that they see benefits and they think it makes them better people in the long run.

What I find strange is that a lot of people (not sure about FJ, but definitely on TWoP) seem convinced that they can't be serious about their religious conviction, that polygamy is really about Kody wanting more sex or Kody being an attention whore.

The only reason i doubt how much it's about religion is how little they seem to push it on the kids. Don't get me wrong, it's great that they seem to let the kids make their own choices, but if they thought a man with multiple wives is the only way they all get into heaven, wouldn't all of them, not just Robyn and Christine, be upset if the kids chose a different path? It also made their move to Las Vegas a little less believable. I know it was for the show, but even if they were the slaves to reality tv i think they are, shouldn't their church be important enough to them that they wouldn't want to leave it and move somewhere where there's no church even kind of like that? I do think that before the show they may have been a lot more sincere.

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Kitchen Princess

They kept talking about "living the Principle". I kind of take that to mean that a person has to be "convicted" to "live the Principle", and it is not for them to judge why others are not. I've heard this about a lot of other types of "convictions" in church. In general, people are "called" to different things, according to their gifts. I would like to know how the Brown's rationalize about people outside the faith. I assume they would simply apply that rationalization to their children?

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QAF_Rocks
The only reason i doubt how much it's about religion is how little they seem to push it on the kids. Don't get me wrong, it's great that they seem to let the kids make their own choices, but if they thought a man with multiple wives is the only way they all get into heaven, wouldn't all of them, not just Robyn and Christine, be upset if the kids chose a different path? It also made their move to Las Vegas a little less believable. I know it was for the show, but even if they were the slaves to reality tv i think they are, shouldn't their church be important enough to them that they wouldn't want to leave it and move somewhere where there's no church even kind of like that? I do think that before the show they may have been a lot more sincere.

If I'm understanding the belief correctly, they don't actually think polygamy is the only way to get into heaven. There are monogamous families within their church (like the couple that visited last episode), but they believe that "living the principle" will allow them to attain a higher level in the afterlife. I'm fuzzy on that part, but it's not like salvation in general rests on having plural marriages. People in their church can have a monogamous marriage and go to heaven, but they won't get to do all the highest-level stuff, which I think involves becoming a god and getting your own planet.

They seem to do a fair amount of encouraging the children to be religious. We saw their church service last episode, and we've seen them pray with the children before. They also mentioned the Sunday School the kids attended in Utah, and of course they went to a private school that no doubt included religious training. However, they seem fairly moderate on this issue and have said that they will respect the right of their children to choose their own beliefs when they are adults.

I missed the second season, so I'm still not sure what caused them to move from Utah to Las Vegas. But I don't really see any reason to doubt that the Browns have sincere religious convictions regarding polygamy. I think people tend to doubt it because it's just so far from what's acceptable in mainstream society, so they're looking for reasons to claim that they are liars and hypocrites. I don't like Kody, and I don't agree with the religion, but I think they are sincerely convinced that "living the principle" will give them rewards in the afterlife.

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Vex

I didn't know there was another baby on the way... in fact, I just watched the episode where number 16 was born last night.

I have to admit, I don't really like Robyn that much. I think they try hard to make her seem like she fits in on camera, but it just doesn't seem like that's the case to me. When I first saw this thread, I was kind of hoping the mother was Meredith, she seems so desperate to have another baby. Someone earlier said Robyn seems two-faced, and I have to kind of agree. I thought it was pretty weird that Kody was spending time with her while one of his other wives was in labour, too.

When you spend all your time together f*cking, you don't know when you got pregnant.

And THEY ARE NOT MARRIED, except in the eyes of the Mormon god. It really irks me that People mag (and everyone else) says they're married. THEY ARE NOT MARRIED.

So what? They're married in their hearts and minds - and their marriage is recognised by their religion. To them, it's completely real. Just because they're not legally married doesn't mean they can't consider themselves to married. The article is simply reflecting their belief, anyway.

Most gay people aren't technically married either, but many call themselves a married couple. Frequently, their relationships meet the requirments for a common law marriage.

If it's not hurting anyone, why bother getting irritated over it? Why the hell do you care if people who aren't married in the eyes of the law or your god consider themselves to be spiritually united? They're not demanding anything, either... they're simply saying they consider themselves to be spiritually married.

It's incredibly difficult to be in an unconventional relationship with a person (or people) that you love when the law, or religion, or just people in general refuse to acknoweldge your relationship as a marriage, even though you do all the things a heterosexual, monogamous couple does. They simply want their relationship to be called what they see it as - they're not saying you have to agree with them or that you have to support their beliefs.

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gustava
I didn't know there was another baby on the way... in fact, I just watched the episode where number 16 was born last night.

I have to admit, I don't really like Robyn that much. I think they try hard to make her seem like she fits in on camera, but it just doesn't seem like that's the case to me. When I first saw this thread, I was kind of hoping the mother was Meredith, she seems so desperate to have another baby. Someone earlier said Robyn seems two-faced, and I have to kind of agree. I thought it was pretty weird that Kody was spending time with her while one of his other wives was in labour, too.

So what? They're married in their hearts and minds - and their marriage is recognised by their religion. To them, it's completely real. Just because they're not legally married doesn't mean they can't consider themselves to married. The article is simply reflecting their belief, anyway.

Most gay people aren't technically married either, but many call themselves a married couple. Frequently, their relationships meet the requirments for a common law marriage.

If it's not hurting anyone, why bother getting irritated over it? Why the hell do you care if people who aren't married in the eyes of the law or your god consider themselves to be spiritually united? They're not demanding anything, either... they're simply saying they consider themselves to be spiritually married.

It's incredibly difficult to be in an unconventional relationship with a person (or people) that you love when the law, or religion, or just people in general refuse to acknoweldge your relationship as a marriage, even though you do all the things a heterosexual, monogamous couple does. They simply want their relationship to be called what they see it as - they're not saying you have to agree with them or that you have to support their beliefs.

Same-sex marriage and polygyny occur within very different contexts. If someone is in a polygynous relationship for spiritual reasons, then let them use your term: spiritually united. However, they could not be in a common-law marriage, since that is still legally construed as two people.

And yes, the Browns are demanding: They demand that polygyny be decriminalized, which demands that government recognize the validity of a religion that requires that women be acquired and bear children so that the man can become a god and get his own planet.

The Browns put a relatively clean face on polygyny, on its male dominance, compared to the FLDS, but the foundation of "The Principle" is still the Doctrine and Covenant.

As yet, we're not looking closely at immigrants from countries where polygyny is socially and legally acceptable, and the pain of the women in those "marriages."

Nor are we looking closely at the math of the situation. If there is approximately a 50:50 ratio of males to females, then the male who has more than one wife deprives another male or males of the opportunity for a wife; ergo, the lost boys. Another harm done.

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Eponine
They kept talking about "living the Principle". I kind of take that to mean that a person has to be "convicted" to "live the Principle", and it is not for them to judge why others are not. I've heard this about a lot of other types of "convictions" in church. In general, people are "called" to different things, according to their gifts. I would like to know how the Brown's rationalize about people outside the faith. I assume they would simply apply that rationalization to their children?

This is my understanding as well. And if I remember correctly, they've acknowledged that plural marriage isn't for everyone - it wouldn't suit everyone - and there didn't seem to be judgment there. I've actually been kind of surprised at how (relatively) open minded they appear to be in terms of religion. That they even considered sending the older kids to a mainstream Protestant (don't remember the denomination) youth group shocked me, as did the time when Kody did not drag one of the older daughters to their home church services when she refused to go. Of course obviously in the normal world this isn't exactly open minded, but in fundamentalism of any sort it is. The kids, even at this point, are allowed to openly question their parents' lifestyle and adapt their religion - I don't think most of the fundies we snark on here would be so tolerant of that in their families.

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QAF_Rocks
So what? They're married in their hearts and minds - and their marriage is recognised by their religion. To them, it's completely real. Just because they're not legally married doesn't mean they can't consider themselves to married. The article is simply reflecting their belief, anyway.

Most gay people aren't technically married either, but many call themselves a married couple. Frequently, their relationships meet the requirments for a common law marriage.

If it's not hurting anyone, why bother getting irritated over it? Why the hell do you care if people who aren't married in the eyes of the law or your god consider themselves to be spiritually united? They're not demanding anything, either... they're simply saying they consider themselves to be spiritually married.

It's incredibly difficult to be in an unconventional relationship with a person (or people) that you love when the law, or religion, or just people in general refuse to acknoweldge your relationship as a marriage, even though you do all the things a heterosexual, monogamous couple does. They simply want their relationship to be called what they see it as - they're not saying you have to agree with them or that you have to support their beliefs.

Exactly. I was raised by two lesbian moms, and there are probably millions of people out there who disapprove of my family and don't think my parents should be able to call themselves married. I don't see why anyone should be bothered by the relationship choices made by people who are consenting adults. If the Browns consider themselves married, that's good enough for me.

IMO, the state has absolutely no business criminalizing people's family arrangements. Utah is the only state that makes it a crime for a man to live with more than one wife. In California or Nevada or anywhere else, it's not an issue. I think the law is because Utah is run by Mormons who want to distance themselves as much as possible from their religion's offshoots. I don't think it really has anything to do with child safety or the safety of women. There are already laws against child marriage and forced marriage. I think it's more about PR for the Mormon church.

What really bugs me is that it's not illegal for people to follow oppressive, patriarchal religions and to raise their children in oppressive, patriarchal homes. The Duggars are just one example. Their lifestyle and religion is not against the law, even though it causes plenty of harm to the children. Why should the Duggar family be legal and the Brown family be illegal? It makes no sense to me. I don't agree with either family's belief system, but it makes no sense to criminalize one and not the other, especially since the Duggars are 100 times more oppressive than the Browns.

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Daenerys

I will be sorely disappointed if my children aren't devout atheists like their mother.

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Deesire
What really bugs me is that it's not illegal for people to follow oppressive, patriarchal religions and to raise their children in oppressive, patriarchal homes. The Duggars are just one example. Their lifestyle and religion is not against the law, even though it causes plenty of harm to the children. Why should the Duggar family be legal and the Brown family be illegal? It makes no sense to me. I don't agree with either family's belief system, but it makes no sense to criminalize one and not the other, especially since the Duggars are 100 times more oppressive than the Browns.

Couldn't agree more! You really have to ask yourself what behaviour should be so unacceptable to society as a whole as to deserve to be criminalized. And to me, the reprehensible behaviour is NOT having or purporting to have more than one spouse openly and with the knowledge and consent of all spouses who are involved in the relationship.

The Browns really do seem to be quite open-minded. I was really impressed with them as parents on last night's episode where they went to Boston. They had no problem with the teenagers spending time away from the parents with the liberal college kids. It's like they actually want their kids to make informed decisions. What a contrast with the Duggars.

And Kody, though he may be douche, is quite a sweet douche in my view.

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JenniferJuniper

While I don't understand why women would want to share a husband - never mind a husband like that doufus Kody - I don't get why the state of Utah would go after them over their living arrangement. (was it played up for TLC?) I don't think anyone should be legally allowed to marry more than one person at a time for a host of reasons, but what the Browns are technically doing (one husband, one wife, three mistresses and a bunch of kids) shouldn't be illegal. Not in a country that values civil liberties.

For the most part, I like the three oldest "wives" and the kids all seem pretty typical. Logan in particular seems a an intelligent, funny and open-minded boy, so someone's doing something right there.

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2xx1xy1JD

I thought it was interesting how they related pretty well to the gay college student.

Unlike the Duggars, they aren't pushing their beliefs on others. They just explain that they have religious beliefs saying 1 man, multiple wives, and leave it at that. For them, the goal is just tolerance for polygamy.

I actually found myself agreeing with Robyn for once, when she said that Warren Jeffs should rot in hell.

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