Sister Wives Family Welcome 17th/Baby Boy Born (MERGED)

[erunerune]

One of Robyn's (Aurora), and the Ysybyell one of Christine's.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re weight issues:

Being over 200 lbs isn't being just a little overweight - it's a health issue, and it's particularly serious for Janelle.

It's a fine line, I admit, to know if someone will respond to clear-cut information vs. making someone feel so bad/guilty that they just binge in response to it. Hopefully, if they keep up with the trainer, she'll be able to see that the first weigh-in was her worst point, and be gratified by progress made.

I'm not a fan of public humiliation....but I'll admit that it sort of works for me. I "knew" that my eating habits weren't great, but I was able to hide how bad it was (by being virtuous in the grocery store and eating crap at work) and the mind does come up with weird justifications. In the end, I made progress by joining a weight-loss group at the gym, complete with food journals and weekly weigh-ins in front of everyone, plus before and after photos. I could lie in my food journal, but I couldn't hide the results on the scale or the after photo. I also signed up for a 5K run, because I knew that my results would be there for all to see and I wanted to have a decent time. On my own, I could skip a workout or just slow down when it gets hard.

[erunerune]

My personal theory is that theyoffered each of the wives an additional $5K or so to be publicly weighed in for the show. Feel free to suggest alternate amounts. :)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Crazy question here: Do Robyn's kids have access visits with their dad, and did the custody agreement or order allow her to move? Picking up and suddenly moving to another state without notice could potentially lead to all sorts of custody issues in court.

[erunerune]

I have no idea what her visitation agreement looks like, but if she does essentially have full custody she likely pretty much move wherever she wants as long as the kids are visiting Dad when they are supposed too. There are so many possible custody arrangements though, I won't hazard a guess as to what actually happens. If there were abuse issues in the marriage (as Robyn has suggested I think), the visitation could be very limited. But again, I don't know, am just guessing.

[dairyfreelife]

Oh hell, I forgot to record it! Are you serious! That's just :o

And I can't believe Meri is 213!

No, Christine was having issues with Ysabel and so she was moving in with Meri. Robyn's daughter, Brianna found out and wanted to go too. Robyn let her. Since Brianna and Ysabel are around the same age, I saw it as a more of a sleepover thing for Brianna. From Brianna's viewpoint, she was only going to live with Meri "sometimes." There was no indication Robyn had any issues with her daughter. It sounded like she just wanted to join in. It's highly possible Ysabel and Brianna get along and are maybe friends.

ETA: I said the girls were moving in with Robyn. They were moving in with Meri. My bad. :oops:

[erunerune]

oops, I confused Aurora and Brianna when I was expressing my confusion about why Robyn's daughter (whichever one) was going to live with Meri, too.

[denimjumper]

Didn't Christine once say that she always wanted to be the last wife?

I like Janelle too. I was annoyed when that asshole trainer singled her out about her weight. "you have a BMI of 44... you are going to be unhealthy and unhappy and not live as long... blah blah blah". First of all, they are all a little overweight, that is why they are there, to work on their fitness. .

A LITTLE overweight? Three of the four are obese. Let's not sugar coat this....

[Aurora]

A LITTLE overweight? Three of the four are obese. Let's not sugar coat this....

I wouldn't call Meri or Christine obese.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If Meri isn't at least 5'11", then yes, she is obese according to the medical definition.

http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

I'm pretty sure that Janelle is not the 6'9" that she would need to be to avoid being considered obese.

[QAF_Rocks]

Mock AKDA all you want, but she/he has a point. Polygamy is inherently destructive to women and is patriarchy taken to an (even more) absurd extreme. I'll admit that I watch Sister Wives out of sick fascination (like 19 Kids & Counting) but I'm not sure why the Browns get a pass while the Duggars/Batses/Phillipses/Botkins, etc. are fair game.

Personally, I don't see unhealthy control of children or subjugation of women in the Brown family. The kids seem like normal kids, and they're expected to continue their education and choose their own lifestyle when they grow up. The Browns have even said that they can pick their own religion when they are adults. How many mainstream Christians say that? As an atheist, I'd love it if all children in the world were not taught that supernatural things are real, but it's not my choice to make. As long as the children of religious parents aren't being oppressed, abused, shamed, guilted, or emotionally terrorized into their family's religion, I'm not going to be that harsh on them. The belief system is patriarchal, yes, but so are most other religions. From what we've seen, the Brown kids aren't being raised in the same sheltered environment as the Duggars. I can envision some of them growing up, living with unmarried partners, coming out of the closet, converting to Buddhism, etc. I don't think the Browns will reject any of their children if they fail to become fundamentalist Mormons who live a polygamous lifestyle, but I think the Duggars will absolutely ostracize their children if they decide that their parents' religion isn't for them. For me, it all comes down to choice. Are the kids truly free to choose their own path? I think the Brown children are, and the Duggar children aren't.

[gilora]

Personally, I don't see unhealthy control of children or subjugation of women in the Brown family. The kids seem like normal kids, and they're expected to continue their education and choose their own lifestyle when they grow up. The Browns have even said that they can pick their own religion when they are adults. How many mainstream Christians say that? As an atheist, I'd love it if all children in the world were not taught that supernatural things are real, but it's not my choice to make. As long as the children of religious parents aren't being oppressed, abused, shamed, guilted, or emotionally terrorized into their family's religion, I'm not going to be that harsh on them. The belief system is patriarchal, yes, but so are most other religions. From what we've seen, the Brown kids aren't being raised in the same sheltered environment as the Duggars. I can envision some of them growing up, living with unmarried partners, coming out of the closet, converting to Buddhism, etc. I don't think the Browns will reject any of their children if they fail to become fundamentalist Mormons who live a polygamous lifestyle, but I think the Duggars will absolutely ostracize their children if they decide that their parents' religion isn't for them. For me, it all comes down to choice. Are the kids truly free to choose their own path? I think the Brown children are, and the Duggar children aren't.

I'll admit that I don't see the Browns shunning any children who don't subscribe to their particular brand of fundamentalism. However, they are the shiny happy face of polygamy like the Duggars are the shiny happy face of quiverfull. Kody's dominion over the family has clearly hurt the children. They all moved to Vegas because Kody wanted to; despite clear objections from Christine and the fact that the kids are miserable. Poor Hunter looks like he needs professional help ASAP and the older kids have said they will move back to Utah the second they turn 18. Janelle quit her state job with health insurance and benefits because the priesthood holder wanted to move the family. It's been reported that the family has filed multiple bankruptcies in the past and Christine declared income from food stamps on her 2010 bankruptcy application. Meanwhile, Kody woos "wife" #4 in a 2-seater Lexus convertible. Scratch the surface and I think you'd find that the Browns are not that far off from the residents of Colorado City.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'll admit that I don't see the Browns shunning any children who don't subscribe to their particular brand of fundamentalism. However, they are the shiny happy face of polygamy like the Duggars are the shiny happy face of quiverfull. Kody's dominion over the family has clearly hurt the children. They all moved to Vegas because Kody wanted to; despite clear objections from Christine and the fact that the kids are miserable. Poor Hunter looks like he needs professional help ASAP and the older kids have said they will move back to Utah the second they turn 18. Janelle quit her state job with health insurance and benefits because the priesthood holder wanted to move the family. It's been reported that the family has filed multiple bankruptcies in the past and Christine declared income from food stamps on her 2010 bankruptcy application. Meanwhile, Kody woos "wife" #4 in a 2-seater Lexus convertible. Scratch the surface and I think you'd find that the Browns are not that far off from the residents of Colorado City.

I just don't think it's that cut and dried. I don't like Kody, and I have no idea what's going on with their finances, but I don't see any of the wives as doormats. I also don't see them acting submissive. They chose to enter the relationship knowing that more wives were coming down the line, and wasn't Meri the one who suggested the courtship with Robin? If anything, I think the family has been harmed by reality television. They seemed much happier before TLC got involved. Before the move to Vegas, things were stable and they all had a consistent home and routine. The move seems like it has made things a lot harder on everyone. I missed the second season, so I don't know how it all went down, so I'm still unclear if they were really forced to flee Utah, or if it was just Kody being a huge attention whore, or what.

But anyway, I think the Browns are extremely far removed from the FLDS at Colorado City. For me, the main problem with their religion is that they feel they must do things in order to be rewarded in the afterlife. Since I don't believe there is an afterlife, I think they're wasting their time and putting themselves through restrictions and emotional turmoil for nothing. But I feel the exact same way about mainstream Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.

[Austin]

Christine said on a recent show that if her kids decided to not live the "lifestyle" one day, then she would consider herself a "failure" as a parent. No, the kids aren't coerced and probably won't be shunned, but if their mother makes those kinds of comments, the kids are going to feel very conflicted if they don't want to be polygamists. Every child wants to please his/her mother and mothers wield a great deal of influence (power) over their children. So I don't think it will be all rainbows and sunshine with the parents if the kids don't want to do this deal.

[QAF_Rocks]

Christine said on a recent show that if her kids decided to not live the "lifestyle" one day, then she would consider herself a "failure" as a parent. No, the kids aren't coerced and probably won't be shunned, but if their mother makes those kinds of comments, the kids are going to feel very conflicted if they don't want to be polygamists. Every child wants to please his/her mother and mothers wield a great deal of influence (power) over their children. So I don't think it will be all rainbows and sunshine with the parents if the kids don't want to do this deal.

True enough. I think that's a very common sentiment among religious parents, though. I haven't heard many mainstream Christians say that they would be happy about their children leaving Christianity. If you really think a certain religion is true, and your children end up rejecting that religion, it seems normal to be at least a little disappointed about it. If my children turned to religion as adults, I might wonder if I had "failed" them in some way. But I think there's a difference between mild disappointment and the kind of ostracism and rejection that we see happening in fundie families like the Kellers. I can't envision the Browns engaging in that type of behavior. Of course I don't know for sure, but that's not the kind of vibe I get from them.

[Austin]

True enough. I think that's a very common sentiment among religious parents, though. I haven't heard many mainstream Christians say that they would be happy about their children leaving Christianity. If you really think a certain religion is true, and your children end up rejecting that religion, it seems normal to be at least a little disappointed about it. If my children turned to religion as adults, I might wonder if I had "failed" them in some way. But I think there's a difference between mild disappointment and the kind of ostracism and rejection that we see happening in fundie families like the Kellers. I can't envision the Browns engaging in that type of behavior. Of course I don't know for sure, but that's not the kind of vibe I get from them.

Most parents have beliefs of some type, but do not consider themselves "failures" if the child doesn't grow up and practice that belief. Plus, an aware parent has no business making such a comment to begin with. I don't believe that Meri and Janelle, just based on what they've said so far, will feel like failures if the kids don't want to do the plural thing. I think this is a problem with Christine and Robyn, primarily. They need to realize that our children are not put on this earth to affirm our choices.

[gilora]

They may not be acting submissive for the cameras but it seems clear that Kody rules the roost. To me, arguing that the Browns aren't so bad is like arguing that patriarchy is harmful only when taken to extremes. Polygamy is abusive and demeaning to the "wives" no matter how likeable the poster children come across.

[Austin]

They may not be acting submissive for the cameras but it seems clear that Kody rules the roost. To me, arguing that the Browns aren't so bad is like arguing that patriarchy is harmful only when taken to extremes. Polygamy is abusive and demeaning to the "wives" no matter how likeable the poster children come across.

I get this sense, too. Janelle, who seems to have the best (by far) business sense and seems significantly smarter than her dufus husband, recently commented during a meeting of Kody and the wives when they were talking about what to do about starting a business or bringing in income. She said in a rather exasperated tone something to the effect of, "I've made a number of suggestions, but you [Kody] have just ignored me".

[QAF_Rocks]

Most parents have beliefs of some type, but do not consider themselves "failures" if the child doesn't grow up and practice that belief.

I'm not sure about "most." When you're talking about serious religious people, it seems to be very common. It's certainly not something unique to polygamist Mormons. Unfortunately, a lot of people get extremely upset over their children leaving their faith. In many families, there's plenty of pressure to follow the same religion, and parents are heavily invested in their children's religious choices. I don't think the Browns are that extreme, given that at least one of them has said on camera that they are okay with the children choosing a different religion or not having a religion at all.

Plus, an aware parent has no business making such a comment to begin with. I don't believe that Meri and Janelle, just based on what they've said so far, will feel like failures if the kids don't want to do the plural thing. I think this is a problem with Christine and Robyn, primarily. They need to realize that our children are not put on this earth to affirm our choices.

I don't approve of them making that statement to the camera. If someone really feels like a failure because their child has different beliefs, it's probably wise to keep that under wraps. If my adult children choose a belief system I did not agree with, I would certainly explain why I disagreed with it, but their life is their own. I wouldn't be telling them, "I'm a failure because you converted to religion XYZ."

They may not be acting submissive for the cameras but it seems clear that Kody rules the roost. To me, arguing that the Browns aren't so bad is like arguing that patriarchy is harmful only when taken to extremes. Polygamy is abusive and demeaning to the "wives" no matter how likeable the poster children come across.

I don't think polygamy or polyamory is inherently abusive or demeaning; I just have a problem with how it works in fundamentalist Mormonism. The religion says that only men can have more than one wife. If women were allowed to have multiple husbands, then at least it would be equal opportunity. As it is now, men and women are treated differently. My main issue is that people are told that they will gain rewards in the (IMO non-existent) afterlife for following it. Even if it doesn't make them happy, they're supposed to do it because they believe their deity will reward them. In my eyes, that makes it pretty much like every other religion. Many religions teach that you have to accept/believe/do something to get into an afterlife, and most of them don't treat men and women equally either. I'm not going to be extra harsh on the Browns just because they belong to a fringe sect when there are plenty of mainstream churches doing the exact same thing.

[Austin]

I'm not sure about "most." When you're talking about serious religious people, it seems to be very common. It's certainly not something unique to polygamist Mormons. Unfortunately, a lot of people get extremely upset over their children leaving their faith. In many families, there's plenty of pressure to follow the same religion, and parents are heavily invested in their children's religious choices. I don't think the Browns are that extreme, given that at least one of them has said on camera that they are okay with the children choosing a different religion or not having a religion at all.

I don't approve of them making that statement to the camera. If someone really feels like a failure because their child has different beliefs, it's probably wise to keep that under wraps. If my adult children choose a belief system I did not agree with, I would certainly explain why I disagreed with it, but their life is their own. I wouldn't be telling them, "I'm a failure because you converted to religion XYZ."

I don't think polygamy or polyamory is inherently abusive or demeaning; I just have a problem with how it works in fundamentalist Mormonism. The religion says that only men can have more than one wife. If women were allowed to have multiple husbands, then at least it would be equal opportunity. As it is now, men and women are treated differently. My main issue is that people are told that they will gain rewards in the (IMO non-existent) afterlife for following it. Even if it doesn't make them happy, they're supposed to do it because they believe their deity will reward them. In my eyes, that makes it pretty much like every other religion. Many religions teach that you have to accept/believe/do something to get into an afterlife, and most of them don't treat men and women equally either. I'm not going to be extra harsh on the Browns just because they belong to a fringe sect when there are plenty of mainstream churches doing the exact same thing.

I meant just what I wrote: most people hold some beliefs of some type. One doesn't have to be extremely religious (or particularly religious) to hold beliefs or be concerned about what faith (or lack thereof) one's children choose. Most parents are invested in some sort of moral/value or belief system, even if it is not spiritual in nature. Mothers very invested in feminist ideals are disappointed if their daughters (or their sons, for that matter) do not embrace feminism as adults, for instance.

[QAF_Rocks]

I meant just what I wrote: most people hold some beliefs of some type. One doesn't have to be extremely religious (or particularly religious) to hold beliefs or be concerned about what faith (or lack thereof) one's children choose. Most parents are invested in some sort of moral/value or belief system, even if it is not spiritual in nature. Mothers very invested in feminist ideals are disappointed if their daughters (or their sons, for that matter) do not embrace feminism as adults, for instance.

I don't think we disagree? As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty normal to feel that way. I'm not going to criticize the Browns for experiencing the same emotions I might very well experience in a reverse situation. I'm mainly concerned that parents deal with their disappointment over religion/politics in a healthy way. To me, that means no ostracism, pressure, guilt, shaming, emotional blackmail, etc.

[SunnyAndrsn]

I think most of those teens will hit the road as soon as they can. It seems only one or two of them are at all happy in Vegas and there seems to be a lot of resentment about the move. I think the kids are smart enough to know that the police were NOT coming for them and that their dad is just a huge attention whore, and they don't like being used as pawns in his crazee.

Agreed. While the relationships between the adults is morbidly fascinating to me, the reason I don't have a problem with them versus say, the Duggar family is the fact that the children are allowed to show their true feelings instead of having to "keep sweet".

They will have the choice to live their lives on their terms after they turn 18.

[emmiedahl]

I would feel bad if my kids did not end up Jewish. Even with a Christian father, I have always assumed that they will be such. It's not to say that I wouldn't support them, love them, etc, just that it would be hard for me.

One of my stepchildren converted to LDS. My oldest son was interested in it for a while and went to the morning seminary for almost a year. I was supportive and told him that he has the right to make up his own mind. That does not mean that I was not worried about another kid ending up Mormon, another wedding where I have to wait outside the temple because I am not allowed inside, etc. You can walk the fine line between hoping that your children end up your same religion and emotionally coercing them.

[Kitchen Princess]

I think Robyn is making a HUGE mistake by not considering herself in her proper place--and that is NOT as a mother to the other women's children. I know all the adults probably think they have vested her with all the rights and responsibilities of a full-fledged sister wife, and therefore, mom. But the kids are not going to take it like that.

She's a STEP mother. They didn't grow up with her. All the other kids had the 3 moms from birth or near birth. Robyn is no different to the kids than if he had divorced them all and just married her.

Step-parenting is HARD. It takes a lot of maturity to realize where you stand, and to be able to compartmentalize your emotions so you don't take it personally when the kids don't take you seriously. When Robyn talks about "our kids" she's crossing a giant line, whether they want to admit it or not. She has to earn that status (sister mom) with each one of Kody's other kids with time and experience, or she's going to screw it up big time.

[2xx1xy1JD]

They really don't seem to be MORE coercive when it comes to their children than anyone else.

It's just that the system of polygamy is IMO a structure that is, by its very nature, designed to promote a degree of conflict despite all of the wonderful statements and good intentions. I mean, yes, it's in the Bible - but have they read those stories? Sarah orders her husband to kick Hagar to the curb, Leah and Rachel love each other as sisters but get incredibly jealous of each other, Penina makes Hannah's life a living hell by rubbing her infertility in her face, etc. So, I would tend disapprove of anything more than "hey, we happened to choose this, but encourage you kids to do whatever you like and please don't let us influence your decision".

In reality, though, I'm not an ogre but I freely admit that yeah, I would feel a sense of failure if my kids made certain choices. I want them to stay Jewish, although I'd be willing to tolerate some variation in level of observance or affiliation. I'd be horrified if my kids - my girls in particular - stated that they weren't going to go to university and planned to get married, have as many kids as possible as soon as possible, and live a completely submissive life as part of the patriarchy. I would not shep nachas from having any of them going on a speaking tour on the evils of equality and the hellfire awaiting those who reject Jesus.