So a Baptist, a Presbyterian, and an ATI guy walk into a bar

[Deleted12]

I am still flummoxed how three different denominations could reach similar conclusions about what it means to lead a godly life.

 

From my liberal perspective, Baptism is about emotion, Presbyterianism is about cold logic, and ATI is about works and proper behavior.

 

So how is it that teh Botkins, Voddie Baucham, and teh Duggars can find anything to agree on, much less go into business together, as it were?

[annalena]

I always wonder how all the gazillion different denominations can be so convinced THEY are going to be the only ones saved. And THEY are the only ones who know how to live a godly life and are doing everything exactly the right way.

Actually, I was kind of hoping for the rapture to happen;), so i'd finally see who was right all along.

[Deleted12]

I always wonder how all the gazillion different denominations can be so convinced THEY are going to be the only ones saved. And THEY are the only ones who know how to live a godly life and are doing everything exactly the right way.

Actually, I was kind of hoping for the rapture to happen;), so i'd finally see who was right all along.

I think it's surprising how they feel spiritually closer to people outside their denomination than to people inside their denomination.

It seems like in terms of beliefs the Botkins are a lot closer to the Duggars than they are to Billy Graham, even though the Duggars aren't Baptist and Billy Graham is.

[ophelia]

The Duggars aren't Baptist? I always thought they were..

[FuManchu]

Geoff Botkin says "I want a couple of Zombies, slightly shaken."

Voddie Baucham says "Mine's a twenty-one-year-old special reserve on ice".

Jim Bob Duggar says "Nine sweet whites, and I might order another one after dinner".

The barman says "great to hear about your daughters, guys, but would you like anything to drink?"

[MrsYoungie]

Geoff Botkin says "I want a couple of Zombies, slightly shaken."

Voddie Baucham says "Mine's a twenty-one-year-old special reserve on ice".

Jim Bob Duggar says "Nine sweet whites, and I might order another one after dinner".

The barman says "great to hear about your daughters, guys, but would you like anything to drink?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahah.........(snort)

that was great!

[MamaJunebug]

Geoff Botkin says "I want a couple of Zombies, slightly shaken."

Voddie Baucham says "Mine's a twenty-one-year-old special reserve on ice".

Jim Bob Duggar says "Nine sweet whites, and I might order another one after dinner".

The barman says "great to hear about your daughters, guys, but would you like anything to drink?"

I'm dyin' and I'm not lyin'!!!!! OMG, that's genius!!! *low bow to FuManchu* - I owe you a drink. No, 2! If ever we meet IRL.

To Athena C's original query, which is fundamentally (pardon the pun) important:

I am still flummoxed how three different denominations could reach similar conclusions about what it means to lead a godly life.

From my liberal perspective, Baptism is about emotion, Presbyterianism is about cold logic, and ATI is about works and proper behavior.

So how is it that teh Botkins, Voddie Baucham, and teh Duggars can find anything to agree on, much less go into business together, as it were?

I think it's an elemental example of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

The differences in these religious views are minimized by the similarities in their world views:

None like feminism.

All are quick to use the Bible as a book of Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth (cute, huh? Not) rather than as the exposition of how the world got sinful and how God redeemed us from sin through Her Son, Jesus.

They do that in part by relying on scholarly - and not-so scholarly - traditions and methods of interpreting the Bible, rather than letting the Scripture interpret itself.

They wouldn't mind world domination (or they haven't, in the past), though the Presbyterians may be a little less outspoken about that. ;)

So now, some of you may say, "But Junebug, you ignorant snot! Doesn't he Roman Catholic church fill most of the criteria above? Why hasn't the Pope aligned with Mohler, Morecraft & Gothard?" I reply: "Because MM&G distrust the papacy. And because at the heart of it, Catholics know how to enjoy life in this world."

So there you go. The abovegoing being entirely my opinion and based in no facts. But it is a whale of a good question and one that I've considered before, as you can see. :ugeek:

[gustava]

They can make money by making nice together.

[changemanagement]

Geoff Botkin says "I want a couple of Zombies, slightly shaken."

Voddie Baucham says "Mine's a twenty-one-year-old special reserve on ice".

Jim Bob Duggar says "Nine sweet whites, and I might order another one after dinner".

The barman says "great to hear about your daughters, guys, but would you like anything to drink?"

omg - I've found my own people!! That is hilarious!!

8-)

[Brainsample]

Geoff Botkin says "I want a couple of Zombies, slightly shaken."

Voddie Baucham says "Mine's a twenty-one-year-old special reserve on ice".

Jim Bob Duggar says "Nine sweet whites, and I might order another one after dinner".

The barman says "great to hear about your daughters, guys, but would you like anything to drink?"

You should win an award for this. With a Monty Python derived avatar and screen name, I hereby bestow the Spam award!

:character-spamguy: :character-spamguy: :character-spamcan: :character-spamcan: :character-spamguy:

[denimjumper]

There are two different sects of Presbyterian. I'm the Christian education Elder in one of them. One sect is very very conservative and evangelical. Mine is not. Our General Assembly (think like the Congress of the denomination) voted recently to allow gays and openly homosexual people to serve on session and in the clergy. Some people left our particular congregation because of this. We did not.

I'm not sure who this Vodie guy is, but I assume if he's Presby he's from the conservative side of the coin. They have no women in leadership and believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (i.e. you take it as written). Unlike Baptist churches, the Presbyterians are lead nationally by a General Assembly and we as a congregation elect Elders to servce as our voice on Session (the group that oversees the church "business") and we vote in or out our own pastors. It's quite democratic really. I like it.

[Brainsample]

Bill Gothard is a Baptist, but there are about 300 or more different kinds of Baptists, and Don Veinot (who co-authored the expose) classifies Gothard as unique.

He's a big mix of whatever he liked about other people's evangelicalism, so in addition to his Baptist Evangelical core, he's got Dominionism, hints of Calvinism, standard Dispensationalism, a little spooky kind of old Pentecostalism (think getting "delivered" from Cabbage Patch Dolls and other superstition), and some other similar traits of folk religion all mixed up into one-stop shopping. That's one of the benefits of creating your own parachurch gig -- you don't have to conform to anyone. That's why it's a great system for people who don't want to be accountable or play well with others.

[Brainsample]

There are two different sects of Presbyterian. I'm the Christian education Elder in one of them. One sect is very very conservative and evangelical. Mine is not. Our General Assembly (think like the Congress of the denomination) voted recently to allow gays and openly homosexual people to serve on session and in the clergy. Some people left our particular congregation because of this. We did not.

I'm not sure who this Vodie guy is, but I assume if he's Presby he's from the conservative side of the coin. They have no women in leadership and believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (i.e. you take it as written). Unlike Baptist churches, the Presbyterians are lead nationally by a General Assembly and we as a congregation elect Elders to servce as our voice on Session (the group that oversees the church "business") and we vote in or out our own pastors. It's quite democratic really. I like it.

Voddie is a Baptist, educated in the best SBC seminaries and is the strongest major tie of influence between Vision Forum (independent but Baptist) and the Southern Baptist Convention.

Voddie and VF both follow the London Baptist Confession (like Spurgeon) who believed in the core of Calvinism, save I understand that they do not believe in sprinkling infants but maintain baptism of children after they've professed faith in Jesus (even though they reject the idea of an age of accountability because they see all children as having the same sin nature as adults who are old enough to understand that they are sinning).

[thoughtful]

Geoff Botkin says "I want a couple of Zombies, slightly shaken."

Voddie Baucham says "Mine's a twenty-one-year-old special reserve on ice".

Jim Bob Duggar says "Nine sweet whites, and I might order another one after dinner".

The barman says "great to hear about your daughters, guys, but would you like anything to drink?"

:lol: :clap: :lol: :clap:

Perfectly constructed joke -- I bow in reverence to the humorous power of FuManchu!

:bow-blue: :bow-yellow: :bow-blue: :bow-yellow:

ETA - the serious answers have been great, and make my head spin. Unlike some of the brilliant FJers who have answered, I'm no theological scholar.

I do wonder how much of it is back-chaining from the results they want (patriarchy, profit, etc.) and cherry-picking beliefs to fit.

That's partly the cynic in me. But it's partly hopeful, since, to me, the idea that some of these guys are utterly sincere is more frightening than the the possibility that most are snake-oil salesmen.

[Brainsample]

:lol: :clap: :lol: :clap:

Perfectly constructed joke -- I bow in reverence to the humorous power of FuManchu!

:bow-blue: :bow-yellow: :bow-blue: :bow-yellow:

ETA - the serious answers have been great, and make my head spin. Unlike some of the brilliant FJers who have answered, I'm no theological scholar.

I do wonder how much of it is back-chaining from the results they want (patriarchy, profit, etc.) and cherry-picking beliefs to fit.

That's partly the cynic in me. But it's partly hopeful, since, to me, the idea that some of these guys are utterly sincere is more frightening than the the possibility that most are snake-oil salesmen.

I think that Voddie knows his stuff and that it is meaningful to him in every way. But I think that Voddie also feels threatened and needs to make himself notable in the Baptist community. He says that he had trouble with his daughter, realized his own deficiencies and turned to the whole family discipleship stuff to get himself out of the problems created by neglecting his family.

Some who even worked with him say that he picked up the family stuff and the homeschooling stuff and ran with it, seeing himself as a new Moses who can bring the truth to the SBC and to Patriarchy. All of this stuff is a way of making him more unique, and he's done a good job at making most of this same old stuff sound like new material. Voddie is also very motivational, and he can get people to think that it's the best thing since sliced bread. (Voddie's not so inspirational to those who have watched these ideas grind up their lives into a fine flour, however. It's different when you're the one being consumed.)

What's interesting about Voddie -- I can hear it in his voice on his early recordings when he says things that I believe he knows are not solid. His voice speeds up just a tiny bit, and he gets a little breathy. There's also a little characteristic pause after each one of these statements, and I think that he breathes differently. I would love to watch his face when he says this stuff, but I can really pick it up on good audio. Now that I've learned to pick it up, it's quite telling. He knows what he's doing, and he knows when he's taken a point to far. I haven't listened to his stuff recently, so I don't know if he's become accustomed to teaching this stuff and perhaps now might control his voice a bit better. But at least on those old recordings, I can hear it when he goes into the sales mode to push something he's not solid about, and his speech is notably different to me in comparison to when he teaches the straight, traditional stuff.

[thoughtful]

I think that Voddie knows his stuff and that it is meaningful to him in every way. But I think that Voddie also feels threatened and needs to make himself notable in the Baptist community. He says that he had trouble with his daughter, realized his own deficiencies and turned to the whole family discipleship stuff to get himself out of the problems created by neglecting his family.

Some who even worked with him say that he picked up the family stuff and the homeschooling stuff and ran with it, seeing himself as a new Moses who can bring the truth to the SBC and to Patriarchy. All of this stuff is a way of making him more unique, and he's done a good job at making most of this same old stuff sound like new material. Voddie is also very motivational, and he can get people to think that it's the best thing since sliced bread. (Voddie's not so inspirational to those who have watched these ideas grind up their lives into a fine flour, however. It's different when you're the one being consumed.)

What's interesting about Voddie -- I can hear it in his voice on his early recordings when he says things that I believe he knows are not solid. His voice speeds up just a tiny bit, and he gets a little breathy. There's also a little characteristic pause after each one of these statements, and I think that he breathes differently. I would love to watch his face when he says this stuff, but I can really pick it up on good audio. Now that I've learned to pick it up, it's quite telling. He knows what he's doing, and he knows when he's taken a point to far. I haven't listened to his stuff recently, so I don't know if he's become accustomed to teaching this stuff and perhaps now might control his voice a bit better. But at least on those old recordings, I can hear it when he goes into the sales mode to push something he's not solid about, and his speech is notably different to me in comparison to when he teaches the straight, traditional stuff.

Very interesting.

And how sad to know that he has a "tell," like a guy playing poker.

[Bookworm]

What's interesting about Voddie -- I can hear it in his voice on his early recordings when he says things that I believe he knows are not solid. His voice speeds up just a tiny bit, and he gets a little breathy. There's also a little characteristic pause after each one of these statements, and I think that he breathes differently. I would love to watch his face when he says this stuff, but I can really pick it up on good audio. Now that I've learned to pick it up, it's quite telling. He knows what he's doing, and he knows when he's taken a point to far. I haven't listened to his stuff recently, so I don't know if he's become accustomed to teaching this stuff and perhaps now might control his voice a bit better. But at least on those old recordings, I can hear it when he goes into the sales mode to push something he's not solid about, and his speech is notably different to me in comparison to when he teaches the straight, traditional stuff.

Wow, that is interesting. I've never listened to much besides the creepy bit about daughters...

Anyway, I was starting to be disappointed this thread was not a joke after all, then ROFL! FJers don't disappoint :D

[FuManchu]

Anyway, I was starting to be disappointed this thread was not a joke after all, then ROFL! FJers don't disappoint :D

Pavlovian reaction, I'm afraid - I see the start of a joke, I have to try and finish it!

[treemom]

Fumanchu is brilliant between this and to train up a cat

[GenerationCedarchip]

There are two different sects of Presbyterian. I'm the Christian education Elder in one of them. One sect is very very conservative and evangelical. Mine is not. Our General Assembly (think like the Congress of the denomination) voted recently to allow gays and openly homosexual people to serve on session and in the clergy. Some people left our particular congregation because of this. We did not.

I'm not sure who this Vodie guy is, but I assume if he's Presby he's from the conservative side of the coin. They have no women in leadership and believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (i.e. you take it as written). Unlike Baptist churches, the Presbyterians are lead nationally by a General Assembly and we as a congregation elect Elders to servce as our voice on Session (the group that oversees the church "business") and we vote in or out our own pastors. It's quite democratic really. I like it.

There are actually more than two branches of Presbys. They sure do like to have splits and schisms. You've got:

-PC(USA) - this is the mainline denomination and they're pretty liberal; the ordain women and now allow gays to serve on session and in clergy

- EPC - Evangelical Presbyterian Church - I'd call them moderate with probably a few fundie-lites lurking in there. This branch ordains women but is still pretty conservative. They are also a lot more evangelical than the mainline. They're Calvinist, but as with many Calvinists, they have the belief that only certain people will believe in God and be saved and that God knows this. However, Christians have a duty as laid out in Matthew (and elsewhere) to spread the Word of God as this is God's will and this mission work may be what God intended to bring folks to faith in Him.

- PCA - Presbyterian Church in America - They are a conservative branch of the church. I say "conservative" because while their beliefs are very conservative, a lot of the PCA congregations I've been exposed to were very intellectual and there wasn't as much of the legalism that some think of when they hear the term "fundie-lite". There are still some fundie-lites and outright fundies in this branch, though. They tend to do a lot of mission work as well. RC Sproul, Sr. is PCA-ordained.

- OPC and RPC - Orthodox Presbyterian Church and various Reformed Presbyterian Church branches - These are by and large what I would call the fundie-farm. The PCA is officially in communion with these branches and fundie congregations of the PCA will cross-pollinate with these churches and their leaders in terms of sharing ideas, etc.. R.C. Sproul, Jr. has associations with some of these churches, if that tells you anything. If I'm not mistaken, the Chanceys and Kelly of GC come from this tradition as well.